Riot - Can you explain why these popular small tweak…

iainB85 · 2015-02-04T19:58:21.439Z

Recently I've seen two threads that received massive community upvotes about small tweaks to skins that would make them seem a lot more thematically whole. One was changing Sweetheart Annie's flames to pink (much like Frostfire has blue). The other was to make Marauder Ashe have more dark themed arrows than the default bright blue magical ones. In both threads the response from Riot was, "Very nice idea but I'm afraid it won't be changed in the skin!" (paraphrasing). Can I ask why? From a technical standpoint these changes are extremely simple and I cannot imagine it would take more than 10 minutes of someone's time to change. From a QA standpoint they are simple recolors, so I can't imagine it having much of an impact on the game that they could not be sneaked into the game late in the development cycle. I'm honestly baffled as to why these small tweaks that receive a lot of community feedback keep getting denied. These seem like small victories that would be so easy to accomplish and get you guys back onto the track of having a reputation of a game company that listens to their community (which I see more and more people getting frustrated with as the years go on). --EDIT: Including a little information on particles and how they work for context below-- To change the color of a particle, in most cases you just need to change the color of the sprite (the image(s) used to control the shape of the particle). To better understand, here is an example of what is commonly known as a "sprite sheet": http://www.nordenfelt-thegame.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/explosion_opaque.png Each of those images within the sprite sheet is played in succession to create an exploding effect, in this example. Anyone familiar with Photoshop knows it'd be much easier to adjust a few sliders in the hue/saturation of the image to change the color than to create this from scratch. Knowing this, I can understand why a particle *REWORK * (completely new particles) could change the pricing tier of a skin, but a particle *RECOLOR * (i.e. change the hue of Annie's flames from red to pink) is very minimal work and I can't see why it should change the pricing tier.

GigglesOFeb 4, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot KateyKhaos,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=cGz40UQM,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-02-04T20:27:51.510+0000)

Hope that clears things up a bit. :]

While we have a art designer on the forums, do you want to give us some sort of update on other projects coming up this year? Like the state of Morde's pizza feet?

RiotmoonstonesFeb 4, 201515 votes

I'm actually not a designer. D: I'm a Content QA Analyst who works on the skins team.

The Champion Update Team handles things like Morde's feet. He's not up next for an update, but you can keep track of who is here.

GigglesOFeb 4, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot KateyKhaos,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=cGz40UQM,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2015-02-04T20:37:58.085+0000)

I'm a Content QA Analyst who works on the skins team.

Then as a QA analyst I've been having a lot of bugs with champion skins where something on their kit turns stuff dark blue, are you guys currently aware of this? Here is an old example of stuff that I get even after re-installs to leauge.

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/attachment.php?attachmentid=1016743&d=1405492453

Notice the blue bird.

Or am I completely off topic of what you do?

RiotmoonstonesFeb 4, 20159 votes

That's her base skin, which is something the Champion team would handle, but yes we're aware.

The skins team handles new skins, like a champion's launch skin. The champion team handles the initial look of a champion. Champion Update handles texture re-balances of older skins (including base.)

Rew711Feb 5, 20152 votes

Okay, so I understand that you aren't apart of the skins team, but you are able to relay a message if possible.

What I want to ask is why all other 975 RP skins have either new animations, particles, or voices but all of Mordekaiser's don't. Lord Mordekaiser and Pentakill Mordekaiser have no new particles or anything except for the look on the model. Just trying to point it out.

RiotmoonstonesFeb 5, 20158 votes

I'm actually on the skins team. :]

The reason for them not having new particles is because they're older skins (dating as far back as 2010) that were created before we clearly defined which skin tier would receive what kinds of things. This wasn't really defined until April of 2013. You can find out more about that here.

LycopolisKingFeb 5, 20156 votes

I think the biggest evidence that the price tier shouldn't matter for Ashe skins in terms of getting particles comes in the forms of Sherwood Forest and Woad Ashe. It appears that both of these skins tint Ashe's arrows from being blue to a slight green to match her skins.

Both of these skins are 520, yet they have a particle change.

If the price tier is the main reasoning behind Ashe's lack of particle change, cheaper skins exist with the slightest variation that we are seeking here.

RiotmoonstonesFeb 5, 20157 votes

That's correct.

Those skins were created well before we defined what skin tiers were. As of April of 2013, we've been a lot more unified in what it means for a skin to be in a specific price tier.

ThryaleFeb 5, 20154 votes

To add to this, when both of these skins were originally created, they were just color swaps with slight geometry changes. But when riot gave ashe a much needed model update(she was looking quite dated) they gave all her skins altered particle effects to match the skin's theme as a QoL service.

Same was true for annie. her gothic annie skin did not originally have purple fire, it was just a straight up color swap of her default skin.

chaetopterusFeb 5, 20153 votes

i'd like to take this chance to ask about the state of the pentakill skins, since they are priced as 975-skins, but seem heavily outdated. My main question would be their priority. It's understandable, texture rebalance comes first, but when will they be updated? (not asking for anything more detailed then "after we finished....")

RiotmoonstonesFeb 5, 20157 votes

Unfortunately, I don't have an answer for that. D:

Mama SorakaFeb 5, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot KateyKhaos,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=cGz40UQM,comment-id=00020000000000000000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2015-02-05T18:30:31.762+0000)

Unfortunately, I don't have an answer for that. D:

I appreciate you remaining active in this discussion, even if you're telling me things I don't want to hear, Katey. I will still get Sweetheart Annie, and just change the particles myself, but I wonder, is discussing things like modifying the game files in such a way acceptable in this context or should I just drop it and keep that part to myself when I do it?

Edit: I think I replied to the wrong comment.. well, I view the boards in chronological order so I'm not always on the ball with where these conversations start, sorry

RiotmoonstonesFeb 5, 20154 votes

No worries!

Rather than trying to TL;DR the answer to this, I'm going to let Lomar explain.

NarasimhaFeb 5, 20153 votes

Well, on the off chance that someone remembers I exist, I'd like to throw this query out: What are the chances of older skins being looked at if the champion is not being considered? I feel like a lot of the older skins could use a bit of touching up, and I'd hate to have to wait for them to go through every champion to get there.

RiotmoonstonesFeb 5, 20157 votes

The Champion Update team has been working on giving texture re-balances to many of the older skins.

HigeRFeb 4, 20155 votes

that color most of the time means there's a corrupted file or the file didn't load correctly, in this case a texture file since the model seems okay. Using the repair feature on the launcher should fix this I think

GixiaFeb 4, 20157 votes

I like how when new skins with tons of features come out, people complain that Riot just wants money and never makes 750 skins anymore. So Riot makes a bunch new 750 skins and people just complain because they don't have all the features of more expensive skins. It's like you just can't win.

For the record, I think Marauder Ashe looks badass and don't see any reason why her default particles don't work for it. I've long complained that I don't feel it's necessary for every single skin to get new particles. It's just too bad I don't actually play either Ashe or Sivir, so it's harder for me to justify buying their new skins immediately on launch, but I'll definitely be picking both up someday.

GaleWinUnleashedFeb 5, 20155 votes

All we want is a slight tinge to the arrows :(

Not even as glaringly obvious as Amethyst Ashe's lovely purple color. Just a bit of black with the blue would be more than sufficient.

iainB85Feb 4, 20157 votes

To change the color of a particle, in most cases you just need to change the color of the sprite (the image(s) used to control the shape of the particle).

To better understand, here is an example of what is commonly known as a "sprite sheet": http://www.nordenfelt-thegame.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/explosion_opaque.png

Each of those images within the sprite sheet is played in succession to create an exploding effect, in this example.

Anyone familiar with Photoshop knows it'd be much easier to adjust a few sliders in the hue/saturation of the image to change the color than to create this from scratch.

Knowing this, a particle REWORK (actually creating new particles) could reasonably increase the cost of a skin, but a particle RECOLOR definitely should not!

MasalarFeb 5, 20155 votes

So, a story that's only marginally related, but that I absolutely love, about testing and game changes and all that. In WoW, back in the first expansion, the developers made a change one patch to the pathing or some mob in a low level zone. Fairly inconsequential and easy change, no need to test it too much.

It broke the final boss encounter. Somehow. Illidan was truly not prepared.

Anyway, I find that hilarious, but it's why these things can often require so much more testing than we may realize. There may be code connections that nobody was even aware of that break everything. Forever. Or something.

MotajoFeb 6, 20151 votes

{quoted}So, a story that's only marginally related, but that I absolutely love, about testing and game changes and all that. In WoW, back in the first expansion, the developers made a change one patch to the pathing or some mob in a low level zone. Fairly inconsequential and easy change, no need to test it too much.

It broke the final boss encounter. Somehow.

Not to veer too off topic, but this intrigues me. This sounds like reckoning-bomb levels of hilarity, do you have a link?

MasalarFeb 6, 20152 votes

I'll try and use my google-fu to find it, but it's me remembering some random Blue (Blizzard employee) comment from some random thread on their forums years ago.

NagirahFeb 4, 201521 votes

I can understand that you need to make 750rp skins too, but could you please see that when you make one, the particles and the model won't clash completely. I mean, darkish and evil red/black Ashe who was bright blue arrows... It looks terrible to be honest. With some skins her base particles fit the skin, but this one definetly not. I won't buy this skin because of it, that's how stupid it looks. With the Annie skin the particles fit well enough though. Is it possible at all to request this in the future? You know, keeping the particles fitting with the skin's theme, because it matters way more than some may think.

(also you changed Naut's shield particles because it looked out of place, but Ashe's arrows are just as bad.)

Flawless FetusFeb 5, 20159 votes

I'd argue that Ashe's arrows are worse. I'm baffled. They must like Naut more. Lol.

Duke AnaxFeb 4, 20153 votes

Man that is one seriously messed up setup you have there. I can't even fathom why there'd be need for any testing at all, let alone major testing on completely unrelated skins.

Something like changing particles should be accomplished between two sips of coffee, literally. If it were set up properly, all that would be needed changing three parameter lines in a charcter definition text file.

Maybe an entire cup if you had to adjust the base texture, instead of a color setting.

Mama SorakaFeb 4, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Duke Anax,realm=EUW,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=cGz40UQM,comment-id=00020004,timestamp=2015-02-04T20:57:39.655+0000)

Man that is one seriously messed up setup you have there. I can't even fathom why there'd be need for any testing at all, let alone major testing on completely unrelated skins.

Something like changing particles should be accomplished between two sips of coffee, literally. If it were set up properly, all that would be needed changing three parameter lines in a charcter definition text file.

Maybe an entire cup if you had to adjust the base texture, instead of a color setting.

Back when editing the RAF archives was the cool thing to do I made a few awful recolor skins and even did things like completely swapping Poppy's base skin with one I didn't have the money to purchase, so I've seen some of the workings of how the skins are stored and even that knowledge has never helped me understand how things like the infamous Zombie Brand bugs are even allowed to happen. I feel like the process of how a champion works and how a champion looks should be well divorced from each other, but I'm sure there is something we aren't seeing here.

All this means is I'll have to get back into editing so I can change the particles myself, because I'm buying Sweetheart Annie regardless but the orange is hella ugly and half-ruins it for me.

Annie

ArkenStormFeb 5, 20152 votes

zombie brand bugs? Story?

DuaveyFeb 5, 20153 votes

Zombie Brand has a different walk animation when walking toward nearby enemy champs; he does the sort of zombie arm flail thing. It used to activate even when the enemy was not visible, giving Z.B. a unfair advantage.

Kat HeadFeb 4, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot KateyKhaos,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=cGz40UQM,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-02-04T20:27:51.510+0000)

Hey there!

There's a couple reasons why we didn't make changes.

When we set out to create a 750 RP, we allocate people's time accordingly. Since a 750 RP skin doesn't normally get new particles (aside from the quality of life particles like you've seen with Nautilus and Sivir), we don't allocate someone to work on the particles, and that person goes to work on something else that's in development (like DJ Sona!)

We test every skin that's coming out, as well as all of the other skins that champion has, which takes a decent amount of time. Making particles changes means re-testing everything (including all previous skins a champion has - and for champions like Annie, that's a lot of skins!). It's usually not feasible in the time frame we have, especially when we didn't plan to have particles on the new skin.

We also don't want to set a false precedence where if we release a 750 RP skin, and people want particles, it'll become a 975 RP skin. We're striving to create more skins in various tiers, so more players have an opportunity to grab a skin for a champion they enjoy, since not everyone can (or wants to!) spend a decent amount of money on a skin when they simply want a new outfit.

Hope that clears things up a bit. :]

What about the people who want a actual nice skin for there favorite champion. When these lower cost skins are released for them it essentially rules out that champion from getting a good skin for a very long time. I realize this is you can not please everyone territory, but it sucks to get a ghetto skin for your champion when you are really wanting a nice skin for him / her.

Take Velkoz for example, this guy has a totally awesome battlecast skin. Why was he chosen to get the arclight skin (another awesome skin) when he has no low quality skins, now he has 2 high quality skins and no low quality skins while most champions posses multiple low quality skins and no high quality ones.

Was the arclight idea just to good to pass up on or is there some kind of method to the madness ?

At what point when you are making skins for champions do you decide this champions skin should be a simple skin and this champion should get a awesome skin.

RoyaiChaosFeb 5, 20152 votes

There's also that it's easier to make a simple skin for someone like Ashe or WW, as they aren't particle heavy and their paticles would work with everything.

GigglesOFeb 5, 20152 votes

{quoted}

There's also that it's easier to make a simple skin for someone like Ashe or WW, as they aren't particle heavy and their paticles would work with everything.

The only thing that people are wanting is a different color flame, not even different particle effects, just pink, not orange....

ArkenStormFeb 5, 20157 votes

sorry to jump on you, but how is changing ashe's arrows NOT a quality of life particle? Honestly, color changes are NOT hard. I have a very basic knowledge of design/animation/art, and I know that it would literally take me about 15-20 minutes to do a color change. MAYBE that long. I'm sure that a professional worker who has lots and lots of experience in that area would be able to do it in 5-10. I know it's not you, but I'm pretty darn sure that the arrows are just as important as changing nautilus' shield or sivir's particles.

Kasumi AFK GodFeb 5, 20153 votes

Agreed x10! Please please reconsider giving Ashe's arrows a little colour. She's not as popular as Sivir and she's widely seen as one of the weakest ADCs in the game, so please throw some love her way? I highly doubt Ashe will ever get another evil-themed skin ever again so I would really really love to see this one done properly. The skin is already great, but the arrows being black/red-tinged would make it perfect.

LycopolisKingFeb 5, 20159 votes

It's frankly a little heartbreaking to receive this answer. If you could please do me one favor, may I ask:

Why can't the skin be delayed to make the change?

Please understand that I understand the iterative process of game development. I understand there is timeline for a skin to be polished and tested.

But I would feel like Riot would want to release the best product possible, even if it meant the product wouldn't arrive as originally expected. This was the reason that Riot ceased announcing exact dates: Because done right is done soon enough, correct?

As for the pricing, let me point out: **Unless the skin is 520 or lower, it will take the same purchase tier for a player to obtain a 750 skin as a 975 skin. ** In USD, the lowest store price point is $5.00, which results in the player obtaining 650 RP. The second price point is $10.00, which results in the player obtaining 1380 RP. If these skins are being made as attempts to monetize unconverted USD spenders, unless they are 520, there is no difference in whether they are 750 or 975.

And quite honestly, I would think that the strongest theme and most well-done skins will win the hearts of new players. I speak from experience.

Additionally, the same changes to weapons for consistency were made for Nautilus and Sivir without affecting their price tier. Why would this not be the case for Ashe?

Thank you for hearing my concerns. I hope the skin team may consider the options available, and understand that anything is possible.

Mama SorakaFeb 5, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Snippity snip (good stuff)

Thanks for articulating your thoughts in an intelligent and cohesive post. I don't really have anything to add here, I was just compelled to let you know somebody read your post and found it to be a refreshing calm in a sea of hot tempers.

A Bare MagicianFeb 5, 20152 votes

Cool thanks for the insight in this. I didn't much care either way what was done with the skins, but this is still cool to see that reworking things isnt so simple as touching a couple buttons

LycopolisKingFeb 5, 20153 votes

Hello again, there's something more interesting to note:

On Constable Trundle, a 750 skin, his Ice Pillar is changed into a Traffic Cone.

Certainly this change was slightly more strenuous than a small change in particles?

I realize what this is: this is using a theme to its fullest potential, no matter what the price tier, correct?

Surely these skins can receive the same treatment, no matter how small? :)

RiotmoonstonesFeb 5, 20159 votes

In Trundle's case, the pillar is a model, not a particle. As stated, 750 RP skins receive a new model and texture.

Brenticus12Feb 5, 20152 votes

Damn semantics.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to reply to everything!

Thought I'd have to say it since no one else has as far as I've seen.

:^)

LycopolisKingFeb 5, 20155 votes

Thank you for your answers, though they are disheartening to hear. :(

What makes it so saddening in Ashe's case is that she had recently received the Heartseeker skin, and considering the amount of skins already in her arsenal, I think most players dismissed the possibility that she would be receiving another in the foreseeable future - so this skin came as a shock and pleasant surprise.

What was disheartening, however, was to see this skin and the potential it had when released alongside skins of a much high caliber. Ashe, being an older champion, does not have many skins that really explore her potential in different themes, and considering how many skins she has, some of which being of a lower price tier and including particles - seeing that this one was to be quietly added to her closet was more than I, as a fan of hers, could bear.

And now, what is even more saddening, is that the possibility of Ashe receiving a skin that could explore a dark theme such as this to its fullest potential is little to none. There are many other champions in need of love, and having received this skin, a successor would be even more far-fetched, and would have to compete directly with this skin. This, I feel, was the biggest reason for a push to make this skin the best it could be, or at least have a slight color change so that it could be thematically whole.

If nothing else, please take that sentiment from these conversations.

Edit: TLDR: It''ll be quite a long time if Ashe ever receives another skin with this aesthetic. Please do this one proud!

Thank you for your time, and I deeply appreciate your dedication to providing answers, as hard as they are to hear. :)

Flawless FetusFeb 5, 20154 votes

The fact you felt the need to give Sivir/Naut QoL particles, but not the Ashe skin is absurd. We clearly disagree here, but I find the clash caused by Ashes bright blue arrows more harsh than Naut having improper "eye glow".

VuMpXFeb 6, 20153 votes

I understand the part with the time,but i mean it would take like 2 mins. To be honest im pretty much a noob if it comes to photoshop, but even i could do that in 2 minutes o.o I mean like for nautilus, sivir, Warwick,ashe and annie. Moveing a slider isnt that hard.

RiotmoonstonesFeb 6, 20155 votes

That's not quite how it works. :] Each file is edited, and for a lot of them, there's layers of particles, which means, you can't just move a slider to make it change color.

stokasticFeb 6, 20152 votes

Sounds like you need better tools! Every particle system I've used has had the ability to use greyscale images and change the hue with a slider. Of course this wouldn't quite work for all particles that use various different colors at once, but for something like flames, why not?

iainB85Feb 7, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Sounds like you need better tools! Every particle system I've used has had the ability to use greyscale images and change the hue with a slider. Of course this wouldn't quite work for all particles that use various different colors at once, but for something like flames, why not?

Yea, that's the best method to do it.. grey scale images to control shape then control the color / opacity with RGBA values in the engine. Also lets you script the value of those colors if need be. I used the colored image example though because it easier to understand.

Either way, I think it's a shame little tweaks like changing some particles from red to pink can't be done due to rigid pricing tiers that Riot is trying to force. Hopefully they will reconsider / adjust them in the future!

stokasticFeb 7, 20153 votes

I agree. I think they should differentiate between 'new particles' and 'recolored particles'. The first of those may take a few hours/days for final tweaking/testing, while recoloring should take more than 10-15 minutes to find a 'good color' and should require no testing whatsoever other than QA making sure the color fits with their color guidelines.

iainB85Feb 8, 20154 votes

{quoted}

I agree. I think they should differentiate between 'new particles' and 'recolored particles'. The first of those may take a few hours/days for final tweaking/testing, while recoloring should take more than 10-15 minutes to find a 'good color' and should require no testing whatsoever other than QA making sure the color fits with their color guidelines.

Yea that is the conclusion I got from this discussion too.

Zeddicus4Feb 6, 20152 votes

I understand but why create more for a champion that already has so many without separating it a little bit. The entire ashe loving community is literally BEGGING you for just a single skin of hers with bad ass black effects to fit the bad ass skin you finally gave her. Blue does not fit it one bit so I think what we all wonder is WHY you didn't simply make them black or red initially to fit it?

Riot - Can you explain why these popular small tweak requests to skins can't be done?

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