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@Riot - Would/have you ever considered disabling champion <-> allied minion collision?

iainB85··131 votes·6,097 views

Title says it all. Have you ever considered disabling the collision between champions and allied minions?

This would alleviate so much frustration of getting blocked by minions while trying to move around the lane to CS, escape, or engage. It also makes your friendly minions more... friendly... while having enemy minions still block you because, you know, they are enemies.

As a bonus, it would also immediately solve your minion blocking / fast forwarding issues as well.

_edit: Some people seem to be under the impression this would allow you to just stand on top of minions and never get hit by skill shots. To clarify, the way I've seen this done in other games is you don't actually walk directly through minions, you simply walk between them (they are just no longer considered an impenetrable wall when standing side by side, basically). You can still absolutely get hit by skill shots while moving behind them. _

http://30.media.tumblr.com/0cd63b509e761a85295a02a7b202aa68/tumblr_mkutusxaVT1r88l59o1_500.gif

Important distinction some people seem to be forgetting: You would still be blocked by enemy minions, and enemy champions would still be blocked by your minions.

Also, to the people who say it would remove depth/strategy from the game -- I'd like to think League of Legends has enough challenges to play around that our own allied minions could NOT be one of them.

71 Comments

Whinja25 votes

One of the reasons they won't do this is because they would have to rework item 3046 and the passives of Hecarim , Fizz , and Kassadin.

Fizz and Kassadin both need this as laners, at least in mid, to mitigate the fact that they are melee in a traditionally ranged lane, and it helps their last hitting and prevents them from being trapped in the harass of their enemy laner.

Phantom Dancer has its passive because it gives ADC's/AD Melee carries the choice between more mobility and easier pathing versus more damage/burst ( item 3087 ). Removing this choice would make it alot easier for ADC's to do more damage while foregoing the issue of minion blocking. Its a subtle, but important, balance mechanic that I don't see Riot just flat out removing.

Pikmints32 votes

Janna Don't worry Zephyr, they didn't forget you. They just... didn't mention you because we're ranged.

UrPalAl1 votes

{quoted}

Janna Don't worry Zephyr, they didn't forget you. They just... didn't mention you because we're ranged.

You're not the only one they forgot about. item 3070 Jayce

iainB859 votes

Some champion passives might need slight power compensation, but I don't see it as being a huge deal. For example, Fizz would still be a strong pick if they did this change and left his passive as is (it would just be a bit of a lackluster passive).

In terms of item 3046 vs item 3087 , I really don't think the primary reason people make that decision is because of the minion collision. It's more of a cost/burst/wave clear analysis.

item 3087 being a nice option for champions who lack wave clear and/or for an earlier game power spike, where as item 3046 being the superior item in slot for late game.

I don't think being able to naturally walk through allied minions would change this decision making process a ton.

Also, don't forget, the passive would still be useful for going through ENEMY minions, so it's not totally lost.

PanterLily1 votes

What about Alistar 's R, should it get buffed if this happen.

Wimbledofy1 votes

phantom dancer gives more damage than statik shiv anyways though. So there is no "this choice would make it easier for adc's to do more damage" since they already do more damage by taking phantom dancer. Shiv is weaker and is considered weaker without even including phantom dancer's passive.

OyddAWqJ5r1 votes

Phantom does far more for an ADC in terms of DPS. Statikk is just better for waveclearing and poking. But when it comes down to a teamfight, Phantom far outperforms a Shiv.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

No... They wouldn't. They'd just TAKE THAT PART OFF.

All of them have movement through units as a secondary effect.

I Main Swain1 votes

why do fizz and kass even have that on their passives?

Whinja1 votes

Kass: Melee mid laner with no escape pre6, so has an incredibly hard time in lane. Giving him an easier time CSing without having to worry about getting caught in minions and taking extra harrass.

Fizz: Adds to his "slipperiness" which his character is supposed to be known for.

Unlike other melee mid laners, like Zed, Talon, or Diana, Kass (and to a lesser extent Fizz) has very little ways to combat harass, since he only has his Q shield, which is only for magic damage, while the other laners have some way to protect themselves (shadows, blink, shield). Fizz has trollpole but after he uses it he has nothing to avoid the damage of his laner, unless the jungler ganks him from behind.

I Main Swain1 votes

honestly, i dont really see any issue with kassadin having a difficult time pre-6. personally, i'm just irked that they nerfed his ult range so dang much when, imo, his e range was a bigger problem.

as for fizz, he's plenty slippery enough. one does not need a boatload of engage AND disengage potential.

Hay5eed1 votes

{quoted}

One of the reasons they won't do this is because they would have to rework item 3046 and the passives of Hecarim , Fizz , and Kassadin.

Fizz and Kassadin both need this as laners, at least in mid, to mitigate the fact that they are melee in a traditionally ranged lane, and it helps their last hitting and prevents them from being trapped in the harass of their enemy laner.

Phantom Dancer has its passive because it gives ADC's/AD Melee carries the choice between more mobility and easier pathing versus more damage/burst ( item 3087 ). Removing this choice would make it alot easier for ADC's to do more damage while foregoing the issue of minion blocking. Its a subtle, but important, balance mechanic that I don't see Riot just flat out removing.

it would still be required for these champs as enemy minons will still block you

Jacobofcourse16 votes

I personally don't like this idea. I believe it takes out an entire aspect to the game. This would lead to the ability to quickly dodge skill shots by running through your own minions, in addition to what WHINJA mentioned about certain items and champs. Don't get me wrong, I hate get minion blocked as much as the next guy. I love when an enemy minion will follow you from lane through the jungle :)

iainB858 votes

Well I replied to the itemization comment -- I don't think it really breaks anything there.

In terms of dodging abilities, I believe that should be determined on skill and reaction time, not whether your champion decides to stutter trying to get around your own army of minions.

https://tarastravelchannel.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/d1b.gif

Ratbert6 votes

It's more a matter of "don't position yourself against a moving wall"

iainB857 votes

If you are OK with referring to allied minions as a "moving wall" that should be strategically played around, I guess that's your take on it. Personally I think that's just dumb.

Compounded with the fact that clicking to move around this "moving wall" does not produce consistent results due to the combination of minion + champion pathing, I fail to see how it's strategic at all.

Bronze to Challenger level players alike constantly get boned by this.

Isn't there enough to play around in League of Legends that your own allied champions should NOT be one of them? I sure hope so.

Ratbert2 votes

You always can see where your minions are, so you can actually choose not to run in them and position around/anticipate it. It's not hard to walk around minions.

Quite frankly, league is already fair and relatively lenient.

iainB853 votes

I'm not sure what game you are playing. I experience my champion getting stuck (turning back and forth rapidly) trying to get around my minions all the time.

I frequently watch pro streams at work as well and I can't tell you how many times I hear them raging at being blocked by their own minion, so I know it's not just my level of play.

Ratbert1 votes

You mean you actively try to walk through minions, get stuck, and wonder why?

If you know it's a very real possibility, wouldn't you actually walk around, and not through minions? It's not even the worst creep block, I think dota actually stops your champ from moving at all.

The tradeoff is that you're protected from skillshots, but vulnerable to targeted things.

iainB853 votes

No, I mean I clicked an area that was behind the minion, then the minion tried to move at the same time, resulting in a brief period where I cannot get around it.

As I said, if you watch any streams this happens even at the highest elos. It's not an error on the player's side, it's a conflict in pathing between the champion and minion AI.

You could argue Riot should just fix that, but it happens in pretty much every "click to move" type game that has collision, so I don't think it's 100% avoidable.

Thus, the most solid solution to me is to make your allied minions actual allies and not have them block you anymore.

Ratbert1 votes

Then click around the wave to walk around the moving wall. This is easily avoidable and will probably be faster than trying to brute force your way though.

It's more a conflict of minion ai being unpredictable and buggy.

The most solid solution to an mechanic you can't deal isn't to remove it, but to learn to play around it. Pros or not, they need to learn too.

iainB852 votes

Well I've explained it as much as I can. To me you cannot consistently "play around" getting into conflict with your allied minions pathing all game every game, nor should you have to.

Clearly you disagree. Good day, sir.

Ratbert1 votes

You can, you just choose not to. You click around the minion wave, not directly behind and, and you walk around them in two clicks.

You should have to play around existing mechanics because it shouldn't give benefits without risks.

Nobody11111 votes

So lets force people to play around archaic mechanic that adds very little to the game but adds bugs (minion glitches) and frustration for very little reason. oh wait thats why we left dota and some of its archaic mechanics behind and move to a more streamlined and enjoyable to many game

Ratbert1 votes

It adds risk to being safe from skillshots, and it doesn't add glitches to minions at all, those would be there even if allied creep block didn't exist. It's probably the least noticeable bother in the game.

Saying it's archaic means its old, like how items are old, or three lanes are old or how needing to position is old.

TheFameAnimal7 votes

Sounds like an excellent idea, idk why riot haven't done this any sooner O_o

Predatorator7 votes

yes please!

St0rmln7 votes

Shut up and take my UP VOTE!

Arkna7 votes

It's an important balancing decision. By extending past your minion wave (aggressive play), you open yourself up to risk (slower disengage).

Maple Crusader6 votes

Just DO it already.

Sukishoo4 votes

Since it's in other MOBAs, no... it makes the game different from them.

Saixos4 votes

I'm honestly heavily against this, from a gameplay perspective. I primarily play ranged champions, and to ranged champions kiting around minions is essential in facing melee champions 1v1. If creep block was to be removed, then ranged champions would be at a disadvantage, resulting in all of them needing to be buffed somewhat to balance that out.

...Keep creep block

iainB853 votes

Enemy champions would still be blocked by your minions.

Punkkee1 votes

he said minions in general. you can kite around enemy minions too

Gnart Even Close3 votes

This seems to be a lot of ADC's complaining because they have poor positioning... Coming from someone who mains Gnar, who is both melee and RANGED, I can tell you this is possibly the most frustrating aspect of the game. Your own minions should not be like Bard, leaving you to die (and a good Bard can actually save you, which your minions never seem to do). And enemy minions would still block you, making Phantom Dancer passives still useful. Anyways, nobody plays Fizz or buys Phantom Dancer because of the passive. The only thing potentially more annoying than this "feature" is the pathing in game. Anyway, this deserves TONS of upvotes

Xienwolf3 votes

This change would DESTROY skillshots. And basically everyone has a skillshot in their kit now.

Why would it do so? Because suddenly standing ANYWHERE near your minions is safe from skillshots. You do not need to be behind a minion to avoid a Blitz hook, just take one tiny step back, and you are hook free. Hell, just always stand right on top of a minion, constantly immune to all "hits first target" skills!

Being blocked by your own minions IS a point of skill in the game, and it IS a meaningful one. Knowing that the enemy will have his path options reduced because of minions is a key in choosing when to use a skillshot, and precisely where to aim it.

iainB852 votes

You can never just "stand" on a minion. By disabling minion collision you don't simply get to walk/stand on top of them... it only means that you can walk between the minions and take the most direct path to your route.

You can absolutely still get hit by a skillshot while moving past them. Several MOBAs with skill shots like hooks already do this, so I don't really need to prove it.

sparkzbarca3 votes

Several people seem to be somewhat on the "you can use this to avoid skillshots oh noes"

So what about a compromise.

Would anyone be willing to instead allow for us pushing allied minions aside and pathing basically shoving them and making us essentially moving terrain for the purposes of a minion.

I mean were giant magical massively powerful super beings and there whatever they are.

The way minions would behave is the way they'll behave if you stand still blocking the path, except when you go to path you can path right through and shove them aside.

Now this way you have the delay timer between when you shoved him over and when he paths back in front of you to basically give lag between them. Also it's possible if say it's a ranged minion it's still after being shoved in a valid attack position and it simply stays put doing it's thing from there.

This doesn't do much to allow you to kite just in and out of minion wave and "abuse" it too much to avoid skill shots but it does make sure you cant have your rapid clicks to somewhere result in your champion rapidly pathing left and right around a minion and going nowhere.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

THIS. OMG YES.

TenSlashTen2 votes

it used to be fine. Riot fucked with the coding and now you can get trapped by 3 minions lol or against the wall with a jarvan flag...etc.. Its stupid...idky they messed with the base code but I don't question riot 2011+ decisions anymore..it's..yeah..

"new patcher" -crash a million times- "new"

BoxOfDOG1 votes

When you make a suggestion to Riot saying "They have this in other MOBAs" you can guarantee they aren't going to listen.

If I were producing a game, I wouldn't want to take ANY ideas from any other game of the same kind, I would want it to be my own.

iainB851 votes

I don't think that is true and we're lucky you aren't designing any games. If a game nails a certain idea or feature that is applicable to your game, you'd be pig headed and stupid not to try it in your own game. You shouldn't make your game worse just so it's "unique".

Now, I'm not saying allied minion block is an unequivocal plus or minus, it's obviously debatable. Just saying your design philosophy is terrible.

BoxOfDOG1 votes

{quoted}

I don't think that is true and we're lucky you aren't designing any games. If a game nails a certain idea or feature that is applicable to your game, you'd be pig headed and stupid not to try it in your own game. You shouldn't make your game worse just so it's "unique".

Now, I'm not saying allied minion block is an unequivocal plus or minus, it's obviously debatable. Just saying your design philosophy is terrible.

It's really not that bad of a design philosophy.

I'm not gonna argue with you on this, just saying that you're misconstruing what I said. Hundreds of good games do exactly what I said.

Aakesh1 votes

Man i love getting stuck on creeps as mega gar he has goofy fucking size boxe like cho and skarner

FlexAdams1 votes

wouldn't it be an indirect nerf to all these champions?

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Unit_collision

iainB851 votes

All of those abilities would still be useful for passing through enemy minions.

Some champions might need a slight power increase, but I doubt it. "Not getting stuck on allied minions" is an odd thing to budget for in a champion's kit.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

Here's my thing to anyone saying this removes strategy:

Fizz and Kassadin were broken for a very, very long time because of insane mobility, and anyone who had to fight them knew it wasn't just their abilities.

Llanite1 votes

There are many abilities that damage ONLY the first target it hits (Ryze Ezreal Jinx Thresh Rengar etc) which would be arguably harder if people can just move through minions.

Remove collision would basically require to rework every single of these abilities. So no, doubt it.

LithiumWednesday1 votes

Alternatively, make creep block more consistent and bring back Heimerdinger minion hell.

Jefftiffy1 votes

I think the biggest problem with allied minion blocking is 2 things that happen quite frequently:

Minion trapping which causes you to spin in a circle because you are permanently trapped until something dies. And ward blocking movement. (I have been stuck on allied wards a ton)

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