Counter Auto Attackers With Frozen Heart. Counter Casters With ....

Elite4Runner·Jun 21, 2016·2 votes·816 views

and are two items that reduce opponents attack speed based on proximity or interactions (receiving damage from auto attacks). So these are clearly intended as a counter to auto attackers. This got me thinking about a counter to casters in a similar way.

What if there was an item, or two, that reduces enemies CDR by, let's say 5% (reducing targets CDR to a minimum of 0%)?

If this isn't fit as an item, maybe it can find a home in a champion ability.

43 Comments

ShyvauniJun 21, 20162 votes

Attack speed is also one of the cheaper stats in the game. Abilities are already balanced around their cool downs and the chance people build CDR. Also no ability is guaranteed to hit that is on less than a 4 sec(and that's me being generous after CDR) CD where as its easy to get 1.0 AS (aka 1 attack per second) and many champions can hit the cap of 2.5As and one champion who can double that cap.

Yes I know there are abilities with less than a second CD (Kog's ult) But they are not point and click. AAs are point and click and once fired will hit their target unless blinded at the time the attack was made. Also Silences exist which stop the use of abilities and items which does not impact Attack speed or basic attacks in any way shape or form.

Elite4RunnerJun 21, 20161 votes

I'm talking about an item with a passive that any champion can get, and as a comparable item to the other two mentioned, most likely they would be optimized for tanks. Silences are only available through abilities, which not all champions have.

And as far as CDR accessibility goes, with the recent mage update, 40%, even 45% is pretty common among mages toward late-game. Shaving 5% off would be useful for your team, and old not completely cripple the enemy. In fact, I'd say they'll barely notice, which is often the case with the items I mentioned.

ShyvauniJun 21, 20162 votes

And I stated out exactly why such an item does not exist and why silences are not overly common. FYI Taunts also stop Abilities and do not harm Auto-Attackers (outside making them hit a different target). An attack slow on a champions who are usually above 1 attack per second upwards to 2.5 is not as impactful as hitting the cooldown of another champions abilities. Which even with cdr usually still has many seconds of cooldown, and champions with abilities on naturally low CDs rarely (probably never) build CDR as they are better off building raw AP/MRPen/Maybe some defensive stats.

Elite4RunnerJun 21, 20162 votes

They are balanced around their cooldowns, sure. I am talking about temporarily reducing the CDR (Cooldown Reduction) .. not increasing the overall cooldown. It would simply make the item, rune, mastery, or buff less effective. It isn't a silence, taunt, or stun, so I don't really see your point. It is only effective when a target already has CDR, in this way it is a counter.

ShyvauniJun 21, 20161 votes

They are also balanced around the potential the champion builds CDR in fact look at the most recent changes to Fizz for this very reason.

Elite4RunnerJun 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

They are also balanced around the potential the champion builds CDR in fact look at the most recent changes to Fizz for this very reason.

So you're telling me that an item that can reduce a champion's overall CDR from 40% to 35% would break the game more so than if that champion simply didn't build that last 10% CDR item?

What?

ShyvauniJun 21, 20161 votes

No what would occur with the release of such an item is that the champions who build CDR (because they are dependent on it) would start to become excessively weak and either Riot would need to nerf the item considerably, or buff the champions base Cool down or raw power to compensate.

Elite4RunnerJun 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

No what would occur with the release of such an item is that the champions who build CDR (because they are dependent on it) would start to become excessively weak and either Riot would need to nerf the item considerably, or buff the champions base Cool down or raw power to compensate.

I still think you're making a mountain out of a mole hill here. Temporarily reducing anyone's CDR by 5% is not going to cripple them, no matter who it is, but it will help to reduce their effectiveness, and again, that is the goal.

ShyvauniJun 21, 20161 votes

You say this but there have been times when riot nudged a champions cool down by a few seconds (less than 5%) and either had it be crippling or pushed that champion into becoming oppressive (based on direction they nudged the cooldowns)

Elite4RunnerJun 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You say this but there have been times when riot nudged a champions cool down by a few seconds (less than 5%) and either had it be crippling or pushed that champion into becoming oppressive (based on direction they nudged the cooldowns)

Again, I'm not talking about it effecting the overall cooldown.

**THIS WILL ONLY MAKE CDR LESS EFFECTIVE. **

It is no different than if the champion simply didn't have an item. Actually, it isn't even enough to completely negate ANY single item in the game currently. It may negate runes or masteries, but items in the game are currently designed to provide CDR in increments of 10%

ShyvauniJun 21, 20161 votes

I already stated Riot balances around champions building the CDR items as well.. I even pointed out the most recent nerf that occurred for this very reason. The fact you are outright not even responding to that shows you ignore any argument that puts your view in a bind, especially if it is a point you have no counter point o outside the nonsensical opinion you keep spouting

Elite4RunnerJun 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I already stated Riot balances around champions building the CDR items as well.. I even pointed out the most recent nerf that occurred for this very reason. The fact you are outright not even responding to that shows you ignore any argument that puts your view in a bind, especially if it is a point you have no counter point o outside the nonsensical opinion you keep spouting

I'm not ignoring it. I am not accepting that argument because they do not design champions to ALWAYS have maximum CDR, and even if that were the case, there are always circumstances when people simply do not build maximum CDR and are still able to be effective. In most of those cases, they are trading CDR for raw damage output or sustainability.

ShyvauniJun 21, 20161 votes

Yes there are champions that can build without the CDR however Riot has stated in the past that they do balance around the possibility a Champion will. This is also the exact reason Fizz got nerfs. You can choose to not accept a valid argument all you want.. it does not make it less valid or true.

Elite4RunnerJun 21, 20161 votes

Which actually makes this a counter to those very same champions. Fine, their balance is designed with the assumption that they will have max CDR, well, now they don't. Effectively countered. What does an ADC do when they're is facing a fully armored tank? They either out plays them, or call in teammates to assist.

ShyvauniJun 21, 20161 votes

Or they build armor pen. Also ADCs should be able to beat a tank assuming proper kiting as tanks lose to sustained DPS and beat out Burst Damage. Also implenting an item to counter a build most champions are designed to build into (trying to max out cdr) is not a counter but a punishment for picking those champions to begin with. Your How does an adc fight a fully armored tank scenario dies not even compare.

I do not play mages or casters and I can see why this is an unneeded item and how it would be far more impactful than you are giving it credit for. Champions Like Ryze (I noted you were debating him with another person) Would be unaffected given hi naturally low CDS + his passive. However that is because Ryze is "Supposed" to be a DPS mage and not a burst mage.

So if you really want to give your item any real credibility name a champion you feel it is needed against and why.

Vistha KaiJun 21, 20161 votes

They are balanced around their average cooldowns with core items they build.

Elite4RunnerJun 21, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=WNQMGurm,comment-id=00000000000000000001,timestamp=2016-06-21T14:58:04.343+0000)

They are balanced around their average cooldowns with core items they build.

Yes and ADCs are balanced around the average attack speed with the core items they build.

ShahamutJun 21, 20162 votes

Banshee's Veil is the major counter item to mages.

Elite4RunnerJun 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Banshee's Veil is the major counter item to mages.

I see no reason both couldn't exist

ShahamutJun 21, 20162 votes

reducing AA's and reducing spell cooldown are not comparable. cooldowns exist already as a counter measure to mages casting constantly. AA's can get up to 2.5 attacks per second. Only mage that comes close to that rate of fire is Ryze, and he is getting a rework.

Elite4RunnerJun 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

reducing AA's and reducing spell cooldown are not comparable.

Attack speed and CDR are both directly linked to dps. The only difference is that abilities are also used for utility in some cases.

cooldowns exist already as a counter measure to mages casting constantly.

The exact same can be said for attack speed

AA's can get up to 2.5 attacks per second.

45% CDR

Only mage that comes close to that rate of fire is Ryze, and he is getting a rework.

Decreasing his CDR by 5% would be far from crippling to him but it would help to slightly reduce his dps output, which is the whole point.

ShahamutJun 21, 20162 votes

Attack speed and CDR are both directly linked to dps. The only difference is that abilities are also used for utility in some cases.

Level, AD, AP, AS, CDR, enemy Resists, AoE, Single Target are all directly linked to DPS. only difference is that Abilities are balanced around a COOLDOWN.

The exact same can be said for attack speed 45% CDR

Attack speed is cheaper, and even with 45% CDR, I garuntee the ADC will auto attack faster than any mage can cast spells and for a much longer duration if a target remains available.

Decreasing his CDR by 5% would be far from crippling to him but it would help to slightly reduce his dps output, which is the whole point.

Decreasing Ryze's CDR by 5% would have no effect at all because of his passive.

Elite4RunnerJun 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Level, AD, AP, AS, CDR, enemy Resists, AoE, Single Target are all directly linked to DPS. only difference is that Abilities are balanced around a COOLDOWN.

Yes, so what you're saying is, they're comparable, .. I'm not talking about increasing the balanced cooldown of the ability beyond what it would be if the player had no CDR. This would only decrease the effectiveness of CDR they have applied to the champion. If they have 0% CDR, this effect would do nothing.

Attack speed is cheaper, and even with 45% CDR, I garuntee the ADC will auto attack faster than any mage can cast spells and for a much longer duration if a target remains available.

True, but ability damage is most often greater per use.

Decreasing Ryze's CDR by 5% would have no effect at all because of his passive.

So no effect, ... why are you crying about it then?

ShahamutJun 21, 20161 votes

Yes, so what you're saying is, they're comparable, .. I'm not talking about increasing the balanced cooldown of the ability beyond what it would be if the player had no CDR. This would only decrease the effectiveness of CDR they have applied to the champion. If they have 0% CDR, this effect would do nothing.

Im saying that your "they are related" argument is weak, because practically everything in the game is "related" to DPS including items.

True, but ability damage is most often greater per use.

True, but now you are comparing burst to dps. Also, most spells cast are skill shots. You don't have to aim an AA. Not only that, but how many Autos can I get off compared to your 1 skill shot ability?

True, but ability damage is most often greater per use.

Not crying about it. I gave Ryze as an example of a mage who could potentially keep up in cast speed (although situationally) with an AA champion. Pointing out the lack of effect on Ryze specifically just shows that on the champion who could be most compared to an AA champ in cast speed means the item is flawed, because it would have no effect on the biggest "problem".

You don't just make items with effects for the sake of making items with effects. It should be used to address a specific problem, which mages and the rate of casting is not.

Cast speed/rate is only potentially a problem on Ryze (when compared to AA's rate of fire) and the item wouldn't have any effect on him due to his passive.

TLDR- Your item idea does not address any particular problem in game and thus would only serve to cause problems to a small group of champions and be otherwise worthless in the place you would want it.

Elite4RunnerJun 21, 20161 votes

My point was that they, AS and CDR, are comparable opposites in the sense that having a greater amount of either will directly influence a champions DPS without directly changing the damage.

And it is a problem. The ability for mages (or actually casters, since I want to be sure to include AD casters in this discussion) to land their skill shots is a core mechanic in being effective with their kit. Conversely, ADCs most often require some form of on-hit effect or stacking mechanic in order to be effective. This is a counter that actually falls in suit with how slows, stuns, snares, displacements, and roots are counters to champions who rely on high mobility, or champions with low mobility who rely on positioning.

ShahamutJun 21, 20161 votes

so could you please explain what the problem is?

Elite4RunnerJun 21, 20161 votes

As I said in my last comment in response to someone else, the problem is that there will always be casters who build that extra CDR to be effective. This is a DIFFERENT way to mitigate that effectiveness.

The thing is, there isn't an overshadowing, ugly monster out there who I'm suggesting this item in order to take down once and for all. If that was the case, Riot would have an unplayable game right now. This is meant to add variety to the game. A different way to deal with the problem.

And lets be clear, I threw this idea out there completely understanding that it was not play tested and balanced. This was a raw passive with a rough number slapped on it. No stats, no cost, no build path, ... Completely open to balance changes.

ShahamutJun 21, 20161 votes

And lets be clear, I threw this idea out there completely understanding that it was not play tested and balanced. This was a raw passive with a rough number slapped on it. No stats, no cost, no build path, ... Completely open to balance changes.

I don't think anyone is arguing that. I think what is being argued is that CDR is not actually a problem atm, so adding a mitigation to CDR would be either A) Useless or B) Problematic.

As I said in my last comment in response to someone else, the problem is that there will always be casters who build that extra CDR to be effective. This is a DIFFERENT way to mitigate that effectiveness.

Im not trying to be nit picky, but your statement says basically that certain casters NEED the CDR to be effective. In which case, adding a CDR mitigation item would only keep them from being effective at all. Im fairly certain that is not exactly what you meant, but we still haven't gotten to the why there should be or needs to be a "DIFFERENT way to mitigate that effectiveness."

If there were no ways to mitigate mages, I would be all on board for this discussion, but since you can Silence, get Banshee's veil, dodge skill shots, or play morgana (j/k) I don't think its necessary.

Elite4RunnerJun 21, 20161 votes

What about countering self and allied buffs, heals, and shields? Decreasing CDR is the only way to decrease the frequency of those.

ShahamutJun 21, 20161 votes

Those things are gated individually by their cooldowns specifically. This is where you would have to look and say "are allied buffs, heals and shields being used too frequently? Is it a problem?"

Then you would have to look at each champion that had those things if it was indeed a problem, and would be better off just adjusting their base cooldowns than adding an item that may not be good enough to be used, or become a staple that is hurting everything else with a cooldown.

GundayMondayJun 21, 20162 votes

That's interesting. Could work. Not sure why everyone is downvoting. Especially nice since cdr is so easy to get in the current state of the game.

Elite4RunnerJun 21, 20161 votes

If 5% is too much (since this can completely negate runes, masteries, or even half of an item early game), how about if it scales up by level to 5, or even more in this case.

ZT XperimentorJun 21, 20161 votes

Unfortunately -15% isn't nearly as powerful when they get +40% from 1 item, which most carrys will buy more than 1 such kind of items.

I like the idea though, but I doubt riot would bother implementing it. Given their immediate rework of their initial kassadin concept. Originally he was supposed to steal enemy mana, they quickly rebuilt him from the ground up.

Support BοtJun 21, 20161 votes

Force of nature :D 60 mag res, 200% life regen some movement speed xd

Elite4RunnerJun 21, 20161 votes

Anyone who's damage primarily comes from casting abilities over auto attacks. Saying that it works significantly well against one champion and minimally, to the point of being ineffective against another can also be said for anyone who builds item 3143 or item 3110 . These items are very effective against Kalista, and not very effective against Graves. In the same sense, the item I am describing would be effective against Syndra and not effective against Kassadin. I honestly don't want to say my point again and again, but I feel like I am really not getting it through. the idea isn't to implement this item in order to deal with an ugly problem that currently exists, but to be a different way to deal with a problem that will perpetually exist. There will always be casters who will aim for that extra CDR in order to be extra effective, and by taking a tiny bit of it away from them, you are helping to mitigate some of that effectiveness.

Vistha KaiJun 21, 20161 votes

item 3812 delays 15% of damage taken. item 3046 reduces damage received from last attacked target by 12%.

Elite4RunnerJun 21, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=WNQMGurm,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-06-21T14:55:58.934+0000)

delays 15% of damage taken. reduces damage received from last attacked target by 12%.

I don't understand the context of your comment

GaleWinUnleashedJun 21, 20161 votes

It doesn't work so well for abilities. It could be played around by getting out of range before casting, whereas Frozen Heart is unavoidable.

It would probably be sorta effective against Ryze and other short-range dps mages, but building magic resist would be much more efficient than reducing their CDR.

https://i.imgur.com/1HvNiEO.png?noredirect

Elite4RunnerJun 21, 20161 votes

So change the passive. It could be applied upon receiving damage from the target and last for a duration.

Zephyrous XJun 21, 20161 votes

item 3102

Elite4RunnerJun 21, 20161 votes

I think it's funny how all of these comments are basically "Reduces CDR?! No way! Downvoted!"

How come nobody even gives it a thought as to maybe how it could work, but maybe not in the way I have described it so far?

sneezing slugJun 21, 20161 votes

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/JoYfZgxr-jamarr-who-clears-the-way

A really, really old concept for a support I made ages ago that actually fits your idea here.

Elite4RunnerJun 22, 20161 votes

Hmm, so do you think tanks who build Frozen Heart are thinking, "That Ashe is getting a lot of attack speed. If I cut it down by 15%, we win!"? And do you think that Ashe is thinking, "Oh crap, their team has Frozen Heart, I'm worthless now!"?

No, I really don't think so. So your point about this item only being implemented because there is a need to suppress a monster caster is missing on me. And like it or not, this comparison is valid.

What that tank is thinking is, "If I get Frozen Heart, I'll get mana, armor, CDR, and it will help to slightly decrease how often I will be auto attacked."

So in this case, most likely the stats will still be the main draw and the passive will be a useful way to deal with a situation. Or at least that is my goal, which I may not be achieving. For this reason, I do appreciate the discussion, but it doesn't seem like that's the discussion you're interested in. Seems more like you're just saying it won't work, ever, so trash it.

I'm looking for things like, make it scale by level, make it an active effect, give it a small range, make it a debuff that is applied when the target deals damage to the wearer, and it lasts for a duration, ...