Before you comment on a champion concept

regonas·May 17, 2016·13 votes·905 views

I think these should be known facts, but, oh well, lets say them one more time:

Yes, we sometimes take random pictures from internet. Not everyone can draw their own characters.
As long we have champions like and , no champion concept can be called "unfun to play against" or "broken".
As long we have champions like and , no champion concept can be called "overloaded".
Numbers are usually just a representatives. They could be changed easily.
Unique isn't always good, but better better an unique champion concept, than a clone of already existing champion.

21 Comments

Fondling GemsMay 17, 20167 votes

Ok, so first off I agree in general about what you say here, but there are 2 things I need to comment on. First, sometimes people really do make dumb broken shit. There was a champ concept that totaled at about a 600% ad scaling with their abilities combined, did execute dmg, had 2 or 3 different hard cc's and if I remember correctly 2 different abilities that gave mobility? And everything was on virtually nonexistent cooldowns. So yes, sometimes things are just broken.

That being said I try to point out how the champ could be healthier, but you know how protective people can be.

Also you use tahm and jhin as examples of overloaded champs? Really?

regonasMay 17, 20162 votes

For one, that concept looks like Yasuo . Was he based on that concept?

Yes. Have you seen their abilities and how much things they have and do? Give better examples of overloaded champions, i dare you.

Fondling GemsMay 17, 20165 votes

Tahm: Passive, Tahm's attacks and abilities apply 1 stack, at 3 stacks abilities do bonus effects.

Pretty standard, nothing that special here.

Q, shortish range fast wide skill shot. Slows targets, at 3 stacks stuns instead.

About as basic of a cc skillshot as you can get.

W, At 3 stacks may swallow an enemy, making them untargetable but reducing movespeed. Can swallow an ally instead and increase movespeed.

Pretty interesting but not overloaded. You just make someone untargetable for a bit. Restricted vs enemies by passive.

E, damage taken partially restores out of combat. At the expense of this regen all damage taken in combat is converted to a shield.

Interesting, but just a different way of saying sustain and self shield that scales with hp.

R, bring an ally on a magical journey after a bit. Boosted dmg on everything.

Pretty basic, tf ult with an slly.

Now nidalee:

Passive, Q and W gives abilities bonus effects (dmg) and movespeed.

Comparable to tahm passive, enhances 2 abilities in less time with less reliability.

Q1, skillshot that gains dmg over distance. Marks target.

standard

Q2, auto reset, enhanced execute dmg increased by passive.

Also standard but that is 2 different abilities in 1.

W1, places a trap that lasts a long ass time, no limit. Traps deal dmg and mark target.

standard trap.

W2, short cd jump, can hop walls, long range targeted vs marked targets. In addition the cd is mostly reset on kills on ANYTHING.

High mobility, mobility resets, long ranged gap closer, pretty strong ability right there.

E1, a heal, that also gives a ton of attack speed.

Standard heal... on a poke/assassin champ. Also big adc buff.

E2, aoe dmg.

Not much to say, just dmg. Combined with a heal. Yeah.

R, swap forms. In addition passive resets ult cd completely in human form. Ranks in this rank up 2nd abilities.

Not as complex as Jhin passive, barely.

regonasMay 17, 20162 votes

No no, don't shorten ability descriptions. Lets go with real versions:

INNATE: Tahm Kench's basic attacks and damaging abilities apply An Acquired Taste to enemy champions for 5 seconds, after which decay once every 0.5 seconds, and stack up to 3 times. Against enemies with three stacks, Tongue Lash.png Tongue Lash and Devour.png Devour gain additional effects. + ACTIVE: After a brief delay, Tahm Kench lashes his tongue in the target direction, dealing magic damage to the first enemy hit and Slow icon slowing them for 2 seconds. AN ACQUIRED TASTE: The target is also Stun icon stunned for 1.5 seconds. Devour.png Devour can be activated during Tongue Lash to devour enemy non-champions from a distance. Devour.png Devour never uses mana if used this way. + ACTIVE: Tahm Kench swallows an enemy non-champion or allied champion, making them untargetable and unable to take any actions for a short duration. While Tahm Kench has an ally in his belly, he gains bonus movement speed towards enemy champions. AN ACQUIRED TASTE: The target can be swallowed for half of the duration, consuming all An Acquired Taste stacks. For the duration the target is Suppression icon suppressed and Nearsight icon nearsighted, and Tahm Kench is Slow icon slowed by 95%. Devour cannot be activated for 4 seconds after using Abyssal Voyage.png Abyssal Voyage. After a brief delay, Devour becomes Regurgitate.png Regurgitate while his belly is full. Allied champions can exit at will. ACTIVE: Tahm Kench regurgitates the swallowed target. If they are an enemy, they are Stun icon stunned for 0.25 seconds and take damage that is capped against monsters. Non-champions are spat forth, stopping if they hit an enemy or terrain and dealing magic damage to all enemies around them and themselves before taking Regurgitate's damage. Allied champions are also spat out, stopping if they hit an enemy, while enemy champions are regurgitated at Tahm Kench's feet. Allied champions can also be spat out over small walls. + PASSIVE: Tahm Kench stores all damage he takes as Grey Health on his health bar. While Thick Skin is not on cooldown, and after taking no damage for 2.5 seconds, Tahm Kench rapidly heals for a portion of his Grey Health over time, consuming it in the process. ACTIVE: Tahm Kench converts his current Grey Health into a shield which slowly decays over 6 seconds. + PASSIVE: Tahm Kench's basic attacks and damaging abilities deal bonus magic damage. ACTIVE: Tahm Kench channels for up to 15 seconds, highlighting the path to his intended destination to allies while opening his maw to offer up to one allied champion the chance to come with him. Once an ally has climbed in or after a 1 second delay Tahm Kench can reactivate Abyssal Voyage 2 Abyssal Voyage to begin a 1-second channel which, upon completion, blinks him and his ally to the target location, arriving after a 0.5-second delay. Taking damage interrupts Abyssal Voyage, putting it on a 10-second reduced cooldown. Abyssal Voyage cannot be activated while Devour.png his belly is full.

Tahm Kench's kit. (Source: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Tahm_Kench )

Fondling GemsMay 17, 20161 votes

Sorry, on mobile. In any case Nidalee is much more overloaded than Tahm.

ElphrihaimMay 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

No no, don't shorten ability descriptions. Lets go with real versions:

Wiki tooltips are not in game tooltips.

If you want to do this, use the in game tooltips.

Spoiler alert: they're closer to the shortform tooltips rather than the wikia's tooltips.

regonasMay 17, 20162 votes

Of course. In game tooltip doesn't even show the scalings on abilities. Were are talking about full ability descriptions.

ElphrihaimMay 17, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Of course. In game tooltip doesn't even show the scalings on abilities.

actually it does

it has an integer value showing how much it is currently getting, instead of a +% number.

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-P7yGSpTzlg4/VzI0oMR_ztI/AAAAAAAA6to/esK-MV0UUvMkeabce44w1yTFds9tGuJXgCLcB/s640/ten.jpg

Were are talking about full ability descriptions.

but my point is that the in game descriptions are shorter because they cut out pieces of information that the wiki doesn't, and that are not the most USEFUL pieces of information to actually read (unless you know how long 880 range is, the fact that ahri's q has that much range means nothing).

ElphrihaimMay 17, 20165 votes

As long we have champions like and , no champion concept can be called "unfun to play against" or "broken".

sorry you're wrong

we totally can

As long we have champions like and , no champion concept can be called "overloaded".

sorry you're wrong

there totally can be

(the first-posted Wirym is a perfect example of mine of overloaded as hell)

Numbers are usually just a representatives. They could be changed easily.

yes, but numbers matter a lot

e.g. from zileas, 500 dmg @ 20 second cooldown VS 250 dmg @ 10 second cooldown those abilities are different, and significantly so.

Unique isn't always good, but better better an unique champion concept, than a clone of already existing champion.

definitely.

Rico NastyMay 17, 20165 votes

I agree with 1, 4, and 5. Your other points are bullshit.

ModThe DjinnMay 17, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Yes, we sometimes take random pictures from internet. Not everyone can draw their own characters.

Numbers are usually just a representatives. They could be changed easily.

Unique isn't always good, but better better an unique champion concept, than a clone of already existing champion.

Agreed, largely. I would agree that better a unique concept than a clone, but that doesn't always apply: sometimes better a close-to-cloned ability than an exploration that would break the game -- at least, once it's been thoroughly analyzed as unhealthy for the game and/or the kit. I'm all for exploration and experimentation, but I would save that learning when to kill your design ideas is something that is SUPER important to be a good designer, and something people here often have trouble with.

As long we have champions like and , no champion concept can be called "unfun to play against" or "broken".

As long we have champions like and , no champion concept can be called "overloaded".

Entirely disagreed on these points. I've seen user-created content that is MUCH less fun and/or MUCH more overloaded than any of the example you've given here.

regonasMay 17, 20162 votes

Don't take this wrong way, but do you know what "exaggeration" is? Of course there will be people, who will make ridiculously complicated and overloaded kits. But, if you could go back in time 4 years or so, these champions would never be consider as viable to be added. Even now, they are have much more than a little bit older champions and compared to them are extremely broken. Yasuo and Zed have no counter play to them. Only thing you can do is alt+f4. Jhin and TahmKench have more text in their abilities and does more thing than some other champions combined into one.

ModThe DjinnMay 17, 20163 votes

{quoted} Don't take this wrong way, but do you know what "exaggeration" is?

Yes. But if you were at all serious in having this be stuff to help people rather than a veiled complaint about Zed / Yasuo / Jhin / Tahm, exaggeration really doesn't add to the argument. :P

Of course there will be people, who will make ridiculously complicated and overloaded kits. But, if you could go back in time 4 years or so, these champions would never be consider as viable to be added. Even now, they are have much more than a little bit older champions and compared to them are extremely broken.

I have to disagree here. Irelia, for example, has a gap-closer, a stun, innate tenacity, true damage, magic damage, self-sustain, and a durable body. That's overloaded at LEAST as much as Jhin, and probably more. Overloaded champions have existed since Season One, and aren't really THAT much more common these days.

and have no counter play to them. Only thing you can do is alt+f4.

Zed I'm more inclined to agree with, but Yasuo isn't in a great spot at the moment (and has a decent amount of counter picks, if not counterplay). In fact, of the three you mentioned, all are at 49-50% win rate in Plat+, and only Zed suffers from an enormous pick/ban rate. The others are probably in decent spots right now, save Tahm, who I'd argue is a little weak. :P

regonasMay 17, 20162 votes

Forgot about irelia :D someone still plays her? On more serious note, irelia does have tons of things, but most of them are pretty simple and straight forward. And having "decent" win rate doesn't change broken champion into not broken champion. P.S. i am not complaining about them. Champions with no counter-play can be banned, overloaded champions aren't bad champions.

ModThe DjinnMay 17, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Forgot about irelia :D someone still plays her?

Not really, because the meta has moved on. Same with the other "I get tons of free stuff" characters of yore, like Jarvan, Xin Zhao, Trundle, Riven, Maokai, etc.

On more serious note, irelia does have tons of things, but most of them are pretty simple and straight forward.

I mean, I'd argue Jhin is pretty straight forward in terms of what he has as well: it's all either damage or crowd control, with some very minor speed increases. Irelia's kit is about as overloaded as they come.

P.S. i am not complaining about them. Champions with no counter-play can be banned, overloaded champions aren't bad champions.

Agreed. I just like to discuss this stuff. :P

BaunjoMay 17, 20163 votes

If zed and yasuo don't have counterplay why do I rarely lose lane against them [zombie-brand-mindblown]

AstôlfoMay 17, 20164 votes

Points 1/4/5 are fine. 2/3, the crying is fucking hilarious. Well done, you gave me a good laugh.

King MaruillaMay 17, 20161 votes

Fair, fair.

I offen respond and read how different my choices are from others.

For Pious Augustus, someone claimed that his autos and passives were broken, seeing that giving him a rageblade would net him pentakill after pentakill. I counteracted this by making his movement speed stupid slow, and having a set (3) times before reaching the point where he could be a real threat.

For Nura, her moves may minic others, but she takes her own spin (her ult only heals her if it kills, her Passive can be used with two moves, and for the healing move, she can't move while Yi can after a second), and their (the moves) range is pitiful.

For Tenbatsu, her ult requires the use of her shield to gain more "Bullet Coins" to upgrade her ult in four different upgrades as opposed to Gangplank's 3, and prioritizes with both piercing and rooting with her moves.