Whittaker's Onslaught (Duelist Tank Item Concept)

Elite4Runner··2 votes·579 views

This has already been through a few edits. Please be sure to check out the bottom 'edit' sections before dismissing.

I'm sure some, or most, won't like this idea because most never do like my ideas. If you're comment is simply that it couldn't become an item, don't bother. I honestly don't expect that it would make it into the game without heavy changes, if at all.

Those changes are what I'm after. What would need to be different to have, even a similar item that would fit in the game?

The idea is to have a tank item that encourages dueling to maintain resistances. It is not really meant to be a damage dealing item.


Whittaker's Onslaught

item 3191 + item 3101 + item 1028 + 400 gold (3100 gold total)

250 health 45 armor 40 AP 35% attack speed 10% CDR

Passive: Onslaught - Basic attacks grant +3% attack speed, +30 health, and +7 armor for 5 seconds, stacking up to 5 times, granting a total of +15% attack speed, +150 health, and +35 armor. (See Edit #2 below)


So I obviously stole this passive from Guinsoo's Rageblade, but I would really like to see at least one other item with stacking stats like that. I'm also not set on the numbers. I'm not really sure about the strength. I used to have it stack AP instead of armor, but I was worried that would make it too offensive. I figured compared to GR, it has more base (static) stats, costs less, has no on-hit damage, and no fully stacked effect.

Please feel free to give me your thoughts and ideas.


P.S. Edit I've noticed a big error in how I communicated the phrase 'tank duelist item'. When I used this phrase I was intending it as a description of the item itself, not necessarily the champions or role for which it is designed. What I mean is that it is a defensive item that is intended to encourage dueling. This item could of course be built on tanks, but the attack speed ma not benefit them as much as other roles. It could be built on juggernauts to make them able to tank more while still bolstering their damage. It could be built on fighters to improve their damage output and give them able to survive some incoming damage. It could even be built on ADCs, mages, ... any champion or role that could find this beneficial. Keep in mind that this will need other items to fit any of these roles.

I want to also make a point about attack speed items in general. Most of the attack speed items currently ino the game require other items in order to be effective. My intention was not to supply damage from this item for the same reason.

I also agree that the temporary stacking health is awkward. I am interested in what other ideas people may have as an alternative. I really want there to be some sustainable health aspect to this still.

It was also suggested to me that an alternative to the attack speed aspect, and stacking on-hit passive, the passive could instead stack based on time in combat. I do like this idea and I'm wondering what others think of it. See Edit #2 below


Edit #2

Thinking about it a bit more, I decided that I don't really like the stacking mechanic of simply being in combat. It does encourage the player to continuously be involved in combat in order to maintain the resistances that this item can provide, but being passively in combat by simply receiving damage isn't what I'm wanting.

I do have a solution however!

Onslaught - Dealing damage from any source to an enemy and/or neutral unit (does not include structures) grants +<Stats to be assigned> for five seconds, stacking up to 5 times. Stacks can only be gained once per .5 seconds.

I'm also considering making this enemy champion only, or enemy champion and neutral monsters

This would allow the more passive champions to still accumulate stacks by combining this item with items like Sunfire Cape. This would also work well with champions like Singed, who doesn't often directly attack his target. Champions who build Thornmail could even benefit from this. The limit to stack accumulation will actually put a limit on players stacking with ungodly attack speed (Although it still allows for quite a bit, 2.0 attack speed at max.) as well as champions who burst all of their abilities in rapid succession.

As far as stacking stats go, I really like the idea keeping armor in there. I'm not so sure that attack speed really fits anymore (but I have a slight notion to keep it in there as well), and I still have no idea what I want to do about health. Maybe at full stacks it can return a small % of maximum or missing health 'on-damage', with the same frequency restriction. I'll want to try to keep the number of stacking stats at three if possible, but I may settle for two. I am kind of toying with the idea of throwing in stacking flat movement speed and and a small amount of CDR. Maybe +8 movement speed and +1% CDR, giving a maximum of +40 movement speed and +5% CDR at full stacks. The CDR might be strange as well, but I'm still thinking. Maybe by adjusting the base stats (and of course items. Finding items to fit this mutant item should be just as challenging) so that it gives 5% or 15% CDR, that fully stacked 5% will even it out to 10% or 20% respectively.

18 Comments

Elite4Runner1 votes

Names are absolutely subject to change too.

IronwallJackson1 votes

There are so many issues here that I don't even know where to start.

I suppose one of the largest issues here is that basically no one would want it. The list of champions who could make use out of all those bizarre stats is a short one, and what tank wants something that starts out that mediocre? Hell, what tank gets significant damage from their autoattacks that also wants AP? Off the top of my head, I can think of maybe Tahm Kench and Irelia.

The stats are way too much of a hodgepodge, and that's not even going into how ridiculous the stacking, temporary health thing sounds. This idea needs to go back all the way back to the conceptual stage.

Elite4Runner1 votes

Okay then, let's go back. I gave the idea in my OP.

Tank item that maintain resistances through dueling.

What do you suggest?

IronwallJackson1 votes

Tanks, on the whole, don't deal damage through their autoattacks, and those that do are usually fighter/tanks or juggernauts. Moreover, most of them would prefer a Rageblade for offensively oriented passive instead of the defensive one, since they tend to build only one of two legit weapons before going full tank mode. Admittedly, trundle and volibear might like it, but that's neither here nor there.

The defensive ramping is a neat idea, but I think you're going about this the wrong way. Instead of relying on autoattacks, or hell, even spell rotations, try some other way of gating the extra hardiness. Why not add ramping damage resistance based on time spent in combat, for example? It fulfills your basic goal, I suppose, and doesn't have the awkwardness of the other idea.

In the end though, the concept itself is kind of strange, so I'm not entirely sure it works either way.

Elite4Runner1 votes

THANK YOU! Honestly, it is always so crushing to me how hard it is to get an actually constructive suggestion out of anyone on here.

I do like the time `in-combat' stacking. I'm going to strongly consider that and ways that it can be implemented.

Also, I am going to do a p.s. edit here soon for some fundamental communication errors on my part as to all of the valid points on who this item is intended for. Please look for that.

Elite4Runner1 votes

Thinking about it a bit more, I decided that I don't really like the stacking mechanic of simply being in combat. It does encourage the player to continuously be involved in combat in order to maintain the resistances that this item can provide, but being passively in combat by simply receiving damage isn't what I'm wanting.

I do have a solution however!

Onslaught - Dealing damage from any source to an enemy and/or neutral unit (does not include structures) grants +<Stats to be assigned> for five seconds, stacking up to 5 times. Stacks can only be gained once per .5 seconds.

I'm also considering making this enemy champion only, or enemy champion and neutral monsters

This would allow the more passive champions to still accumulate stacks by combining this item with items like Sunfire Cape. This would also work well with champions like Singed, who doesn't often directly attack his target. Champions who build Thornmail could even benefit from this. The limit to stack accumulation will actually put a limit on players stacking with ungodly attack speed (Although it still allows for quite a bit, 2.0 attack speed at max.) as well as champions who burst all of their abilities in rapid succession.

As far as stacking stats go, I really like the idea keeping armor in there. I'm not so sure that attack speed really fits anymore (but I have a slight notion to keep it in there as well), and I still have no idea what I want to do about health. Maybe at full stacks it can return a small % of maximum or missing health 'on-damage', with the same frequency restriction. I'll want to try to keep the number of stacking stats at three if possible, but I may settle for two. I am kind of toying with the idea of throwing in stacking flat movement speed and and a small amount of CDR. Maybe +8 movement speed and +1% CDR, giving a maximum of +40 movement speed and +5% CDR at full stacks. The CDR might be strange as well, but I'm still thinking. Maybe by adjusting the base stats (and of course items. Finding items to fit this mutant item should be just as challenging) so that it gives 5% or 15% CDR, that fully stacked 5% will even it out to 10% or 20% respectively.

But yeah, still thinking lol

IronwallJackson1 votes

The new passive you came up with as potential, even if I'm still unsure about the implementation. Personally, I'd give the "time spent in combat" stacks a bit more thought, since some champions have utility/cc focused kits and couldn't stack the new passive very well. That said, I'm honestly not super interested in how stacks are obtained, as much what the stacks do.

Stacking CDR is pretty awkward because it doesn't affect cooldown timers until abilities have already come off cooldown, so that limits its in-combat utility. I'll throw out another suggestion though, if only for the sake of being constructive. Why not eschew actual resistances for a %damage reduction like Alistar's ult? Nothing quite as pronounced as that 70%, mind you, but it might be interesting to give access to that sort of ability to other champions. Maybe. It could also be the "fully stacked" effect on top of actual MR and Armor.

Elite4Runner1 votes

Yeah, I agree with the CDR being strange, I don't know what I was thinking haha. I'm going to blame that on the fact that I needed to get some sleep finally. I wasn't sure if giving both, armor and magic resistance would be a good plan here, and I'm worried that doing something like that and then throwing pure damage reduction, or even a sizable healing factor on top of it upon reaching full stacks would make this item too powerful.

... sigh, .. this is a pain in the ass lol

IronwallJackson1 votes

Game design isn't easy, broseph, especially when you're trying to add to an existing, complex system.

Elite4Runner1 votes

Too true. The funny thing is I actually started on a bachelor's degree in Game Design, but ITT Tech is a worthless waste of money, and a lot of money. To be more specific, I actually wanted to go more into asset modeling, but I still enjoy trying to think of items, champions, theory crafting, ect. ....

Elite4Runner1 votes

Off the top of my head, I can think of maybe Tahm Kench and Irelia.

Alistar Amumu Braum Chogath Diana DrMundo Galio Gragas Hecarim Jax Kassadin Kayle Kennen Lissandra Malphite Mordekaiser Maokai Nasus Nautilus Nunu Rammus Rumble Sejuani Shen Skarner TahmKench Taric Thresh Trundle Udyr Vladimir Volibear Zac Irelia XinZhao

Maybe not all the best examples, but they fit

Elite4Runner1 votes

Although, I do agree that the temp HP stacking is pretty awkward.

RcGjWO640w1 votes

Tanks already have incredibly strong dueling potential as is. They don't have to do a whole lot of damage, just outlast yours.

Elite4Runner1 votes

{quoted}

Tanks already have incredibly strong dueling potential as is. They don't have to do a whole lot of damage, just outlast yours.

This supports that

Usernamehere12351 votes

Right now for tanks there already is a great item to buy that gives a lot of power to tanks that they wouldn't otherwise have. item 3068 is great because it gives tanks pushing power, and a surprisingly large amount of damage in extended duels. The only problem with your item is that you're thinking of TANKS. Do you mean fighters or juggernauts? And even then, stacking attack speed for any tank is probably a bad stat, because tanks are usually more defined by their spells. And the stacking health is a ridiculous concept, I wouldn't recommend it for so many reasons, the same for armor too. Defensive stats don't have heavy ramping effects based on autos becuase it doesn't make sense; tanks don't auto very often.

Usernamehere12351 votes

I should elaborate by saying that the item fits such a ridiculous niche that it'll be phased out of the game eventually. It'll have the same problem that Wit's End has now. if you're looking to build a tank/bruiser item that helps in dueling, think of items that just give lots of raw stats with a unique(ish) passive. Something like the newer Titanic Hydra do this perfectly. The hardest part is that with this type of item, there is almost never any armor or mr on it because it's too unique. That's why Black Cleaver and Titanic Hydra both have health and no armor/mr; that would make the items too unique when they're supposed to be generalized. For a dueling item, I don't recommend armor or mr.

Elite4Runner1 votes

Okay, what do you at least think of the base stats of this item? Could slightly ramping up some of the stats I was intending on stacking, health, armor, and attack speed, as base numbers and changing the passive completely work? Or maybe lowering, removing, replacing any of them?

I said what the goal was in the original post. How would you suggest I get there?

Elite4Runner1 votes

I have added a P.S. Edit. Please read that. Hopefully it helps to clear up at least a few things.

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