Garen, the Might of Demacia [Rebalance Concept]

ModThe Djinn··4 votes·918 views

#GAREN, THE MIGHT OF DEMACIA


##REWORK OVERVIEW Garen has always been in a strange place. He feels like a front-line brawler, but his damage is so low that he barely threatens the front line. As such, he ends up as an easily kite-able character who, though he seems like a front-line fighter, wants to actually run past into the back line.

The goal of this rework is to re-position Garen at the front of the fight as a tanky bruiser who can take on tanks on their own terms. A secondary goal is to preserve the simplicity of Garen's kit, as he is designed to be a beginner-friendly champion.

As always, thoughts and comments are appreciated: more important, however, is actionable input. Tell me what you like, what you don't like. All concepts are works in progress, and your input is valued.


##PASSIVE – PERSEVERANCE No Change

This update aims to be as low-scope as possible, and Perseverance in its current form still functions just fine for this kit.


##Q – DECISIVE STRIKE Garen breaks free from all  slows affecting him and gains 35% movement speed for a few seconds. Additionally, his next basic attack within 4.5 seconds will deal additional physical damage equal to 8 / 9 / 10 / 11 / 12% of the target's maximum health and will  silence his target for 1.5 / 1.75 / 2 / 2.25 / 2.5 seconds.

Cooldown: 8 seconds.

The shift to % maximum health damage helps Garen in his new shift to the front lines by making him significantly more target-agnostic with his damage. High health targets will end up taking a considerable amount of damage, while lower health targets will only take slightly more damage than on live.


##W – COURAGE No Change

This update aims to be as low-scope as possible, and Courage in its current form still functions just fine for this kit.


##E – Judgement Garen rapidly spins his sword around his body for 3 seconds, dealing 10 / 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 (+70 / 80 / 90 / 100 / 110% AD) physical damage every .5 seconds to enemies within range. Garen ignores unit collision while spinning, but moves 20% slower when traveling through minions.

Enemies damaged by Judgement lose **2% **of their bonus armor each time they take damage. This increases by 2% for each additional instance of damage they take, to a maximum of 42% reduced bonus armor after a full 3 seconds inside Judgement. This debuff lasts for 5 second.

Range: 300 unit area around Garen. Cooldown: 14 / 13 / 12 / 11 / 10 seconds (+1 second from live).

Judgement's old design dealt damage, but it didn't make Garen a front-line threat. Now teams are actually strongly penalized for standing inside Garen's spin, encouraging him to tear into the front line to break it apart. It's also much more penalizing for larger armor values, meaning Garen is no longer as encouraged to run into the back line and spin down the squishy champions.

The damage numbers have been lowered slightly and the cooldown raised to prevent Garen's new Q + E from making him too much of a lane bully. His shred is bonus armor based to make it more threatening to tanks, but also to prevent it from overpowering the early game. Finally, due to the slightly lower damage values (20 damage per second at max ranks), minions no longer take reduced damage from the effect.


##R – DEMACIAN JUSTICE Garen calls upon the might of Demacia to strike an enemy champion, dealing 150 / 250 / 350 (+15 / 20 / 25% of target's maximum health) magic damage. The impact leaves a large sigil on the ground for 8 seconds (approximately a 475 radius – the size of Maokai's ultimate). Allies standing within the sigil gain 15 / 25 / 30% tenacity.

##UPDATE: R – DEMACIAN JUSTICE Garen calls upon the might of Demacia to attempt to execute an enemy champion, dealing 150 / 300 / 450 (+26 / 33 / 40% of the target's missing health) magic damage. If Demacian Justice kills the target, Garen and nearby allies are Inspired for 5 seconds, gaining 20% movement speed and armor and magic resistance equal to 30% of the target's armor and magic resistance.

Range: 400 units. **Cooldown: ** 120 / 110 / 80 seconds.

The new update keeps the execute flavor of old Garen, while giving him some serious incentive to use it on a durable opponent if the opportunity presents itself. It loses a little bit of damage but gains a massive amount of utility if used on the right target at the right time.

#A NOTE ABOUT THE POLL If you like or dislike the concept (specifically if you select "Doesn't even feel like Garen"), please let me know WHY. That, more than anything else, will help me iterate and improve my designs, both for this project and any in the future.

20 Comments

qetzel2 votes

That much maximum health damage on one kit? Massive.

Not many kits have any maximum health in them, let alone 37% with 42% bonus armour shred.

I also like the ultimate as an execute, not an opener. We should keep it that way.

Other than that, the changes seem good. Numbers may have to be altered.

ModThe Djinn1 votes

That much maximum health damage on one kit? Massive.

Definitely a major concern I had. Wasn't entire sure how to resolve it while still making the Q fit the theme though. Then again, a silence on a tanky front-liner might be powerful enough to merit hitting one of them.

I also like the ultimate as an execute, not an opener. We should keep it that way.

I intentionally changed it to maximum health so you could use it to execute someone if you wanted. Definitely could push it back to an execute, but I think that pulls Garen back into the "dive past the front line" thing. Is that were we want him to be?

Alternatively, the AoE could be put into his W, I suspect. I think there's a little wiggle room in Garen's power budget, and E-ing the tank line apart while providing some tenacity to your buddies before heading to Q + R the squishy might be more dynamic than his current play pattern. Thoughts?

qetzel3 votes

Maximum health doesn't give any incentive to use it as a finisher. Having a higher damage execute as Garen has is great. As it is % missing health it incentivises attacking a low health tank. It deals more damage against a target missing more HP. An ultimate should have decisions attached to it. If Garen's ultimate is %Max there is no "when" question, just "who". Making it %Max also wouldn't necessarily make him want to attack a tank any more than % missing would.

The problem with Garen is that he is definitely the best champion for new players. His power budget is probably limited because of that. Putting too much raw power into his kit is just going to make him oppressive against new players. If you want him to be stronger you need to do is give him more potential power locked behind a high skill ceiling. That is a tall order

RiotRiot Lutzburg1 votes

{quoted}

Maximum health doesn't give any incentive to use it as a finisher. Having a higher damage execute as Garen has is great. As it is % missing health it incentivises attacking a low health tank. It deals more damage against a target missing more HP. An ultimate should have decisions attached to it. If Garen's ultimate is %Max there is no "when" question, just "who". Making it %Max also wouldn't necessarily make him want to attack a tank any more than % missing would.

The problem with Garen is that he is definitely the best champion for new players. His power budget is probably limited because of that. Putting too much raw power into his kit is just going to make him oppressive against new players. If you want him to be stronger you need to do is give him more potential power locked behind a high skill ceiling. That is a tall order

Well said and I completely agree.

Maybe there's a way to retain its execute status while still incentivizing players to use it against tanks?

420Templar2 votes

{quoted}

Well said and I completely agree.

Maybe there's a way to retain its execute status while still incentivizing players to use it against tanks?

How about "If Demacian Justice kills an enemy champion, Garen and all nearby allied champions become inspired for (time) seconds. Inspired champions gain 20% movement speed and (percentage) of the executed champion's armor and magic resist."

So if you kill their tank with this, your whole team becomes way tankier. However, if you kill a squishy with this, you lose out on a bit of that. You have to make the judgment call. How important are those bonus defenses?

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted}

How about "If Demacian Justice kills an enemy champion, Garen and all nearby allied champions become inspired for (time) seconds. Inspired champions gain 20% movement speed and (percentage) of the executed champion's armor and magic resist."

So if you kill their tank with this, your whole team becomes way tankier. However, if you kill a squishy with this, you lose out on a bit of that. You have to make the judgment call. How important are those bonus defenses?

Ooh. THAT I quite like, at least conceptually. Mind if I play around with that for a bit?

Edit: I also like that it adds to Garen's skilled play cap by adding to his team's coordination. If you can focus down the tank and get Garen to burst them into the ground, you guys, as a team, will come out ahead. But Garen's unlikely to be able to burst the tank down alone. So it's E + team burst + R onto the tank, which gives Garen a higher optimal play pattern without making his kit much more complex.

420Templar1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=BscZpgmY,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-05-05T20:58:05.759+0000)

Ooh. THAT I quite like, at least conceptually. Mind if I play around with that for a bit?

Go for it, that's why I put it there.

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted}

Go for it, that's why I put it there.

I figured! Never one to take someone else's thoughts without asking though. :D

RiotRiot Lutzburg1 votes

{quoted}

How about "If Demacian Justice kills an enemy champion, Garen and all nearby allied champions become inspired for (time) seconds. Inspired champions gain 20% movement speed and (percentage) of the executed champion's armor and magic resist."

So if you kill their tank with this, your whole team becomes way tankier. However, if you kill a squishy with this, you lose out on a bit of that. You have to make the judgment call. How important are those bonus defenses?

This is a freaking fantastic idea. Kind of like a mini item 3800

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted}

Maximum health doesn't give any incentive to use it as a finisher. Having a higher damage execute as Garen has is great. As it is % missing health it incentivises attacking a low health tank. It deals more damage against a target missing more HP. An ultimate should have decisions attached to it. If Garen's ultimate is %Max there is no "when" question, just "who". Making it %Max also wouldn't necessarily make him want to attack a tank any more than % missing would.

It's not the %Max that makes the tanky target tempting though: it's the passive riding effect, since it gives you the tenacity zone around where you're most likely to need it: your opponent's main source of crowd-control. The decision is WHICH one to use it on, and WHEN, so you get the most benefit for the fight.

I do see your point though. It's a slightly tricky issue to solve, as I'd really like to give Garen a bit more to do than simply remove someone from the battlefield.

The problem with Garen is that he is definitely the best champion for new players. His power budget is probably limited because of that. Putting too much raw power into his kit is just going to make him oppressive against new players. If you want him to be stronger you need to do is give him more potential power locked behind a high skill ceiling. That is a tall order

Indeed. This has been a problem. It's part of why his E is structured the way it is: it rewards you for managing to--through positioning and proper Q use and proper targeting--keep your opponents in your E. But finding other places to add skill to Garen without making him too complicated is quite difficult.

Fertsa1 votes

I'd prefer if garen, along with every other tank in league, Would deal a decent amount less damage and be less mobile than the invincible speedy powerhouses they currently are.

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted}

I'd prefer if garen, along with every other tank in league, Would deal a decent amount less damage and be less mobile than the invincible speedy powerhouses they currently are.

Garen's already a pretty low damage tank, and a very immobile tank. This doesn't increase his mobility at all, and actually doesn't increase his damage by much against anything but incredibly durable targets.

FirstSergeantBim1 votes

Have you even looked at Garen's kit? I don't understand how you can tell me he's an immobile tank when he can move so fast and still do damage while he's moving so fast. I mean I guess if you didn't run any MS items/masteries/runes and didn't move with your target during E, then yeah he's an immobile tank... but that would be stupid. Kind of like building health on Soraka.

RiotRiot Lutzburg1 votes

Really good effort here. I think some of the numbers need to be scaled back (I agree with Qetzel above) but the direction is very solid and thematically appropriate. A frontline "tank buster" that isn't a marksman or Master Yi would be nice. In fact, now I want to make a "tank buster" champion, haha.

I think losing the Ult as an execute is a big miss for the changes on a thematic level, but I'm not sure there's a way around it mechanically speaking.

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted}I think losing the Ult as an execute is a big miss for the changes on a thematic level, but I'm not sure there's a way around it mechanically speaking.

Not while keeping the Tenacity portion, no. That would be...awkward, to say the least.

I'll think on it a bit: I like the new Ultimate a lot but, ultimate, it does lose the thematic execute. Even though it retains the sword fall and visceral feel, that execute functionality may be very important to players.

RiotRiot Lutzburg1 votes

This has officially become one of the best kit rework threads I've seen on these forums. Great collaboration and sharing of ideas, concerns, etc.

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted}

This has officially become one of the best kit rework threads I've seen on these forums. Great collaboration and sharing of ideas, concerns, etc.

Agreed. This is exactly the sort of discussion I was hoping to have. Thanks, guys!

ModThe Djinn1 votes

So...big question to everyone then:

##Should the Q retain the maximum health if the Ultimate goes back to being an execute, or is a Maximum Health nuke + a potential execute too potentially devastating?

Personally I think Garen's burst potential is low enough with only his Q and E for non-execute damage that it won't be a major issue, but I'd like people's thoughts on the matter.

Ra1d1 votes

This would completely change how I build Garen, but the black cleaver update did that too. Its a good idea and it makes Garen more tank focused that he already is. This would actually fit perfectly with the black cleaver update and make Garen much more useful in teamfights. It is a great idea but its not perfect. The inspire buff from is a very interesting addition I've never seen before.

Laughing Fish1 votes

Why make Garen so focused on killing Tanks? Garen is the guy that stands there absorbing your blows, and can then charge through your ranks and execute a carry or assassin. This fits with his lore and his concept as an indomitable force. Honestly the only change I would want for him is some kind of indicator when Demacian Justice will execute someone (similar to Cho'Gath).

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