@Riot: In-Depth Feedback on Teamfight Tactics

ModThe Djinn·6/27/2019, 11:09:13 PM·114 votes·18,565 views

First, I will say I'm enjoying the game for the most part. This critique is not a tear-down, but rather the places where I think the design struggles.

USER INTERFACE The UI looks solid across the board and works in most cases (items stacking up can be a bit weird sometimes), but there is some major room for improvement.

  • During the Carousal you cannot see your team or your items, making this a needless memory test.
  • During the Carousal you cannot left-click on units to see their stats, making this a needless memory test.
  • During the Carousal you do not see a countdown to your own movement, making this frustrating. Additionally, your unit repeatedly moving upon wall collision and lacking a very clear highlight indicator makes this (and navigation) worse.
  • You cannot bring up a list of items, making this a needless memory test.
  • You cannot see an item's build paths anywhere, meaning that you often have to equip an item you don't actually want to equip just to see how you can combine it with other items -- or have another needless memory test.
  • You cannot see enemy synergies, making this a memory test. If my opponent has the Assassin and Ninja bonuses active I should be able to see that, especially as some larger units and health bars can obscure the back lines of units.

GAMEPLAY I'm going to avoid discussing specific unit balance here, because that's highly subject to change.

  • Champions come from a shared pool (or so I've been told), but this mechanic is not clearly conveyed ANYWHERE in-game. This is hugely problematic, as this is a mechanic that cannot be easily understood from playing the game, and leads to frustration with rerolls.
  • It's a bit unfortunate that every Role/Origin has breakpoints rather than growth. I think the mandatory breakpoints serve to make RNG more punishing and builds more locked in, while opening up a few of those might increase flexibility. For example: if Rangers or Assassins or anything with a +3/+6 bonus gave you scaling between those breakpoints, it wouldn't end up as punishing to not manage to roll that Legendary Kayle. Example: If we picked Yordles as an example, it might start at 20% at 3 (again, some brekapoints are good, and having minimum buy-in feels appropriate), and then go 20/25/30/50. What that does is still STRONGLY encourage that breakpoint, but give you some mitigating tools if you're going for it and can't quite hit the breakpoint due to RNG.
  • It's extremely frustrating the extent to which units are RNG. Given that items already are and that gold is used to increase your team size as well, the fact that luck is the difference between a Level 3 champion at by the second Player vs. Player fight or rerolling 30 times and still not getting that Darius you need is extremely unforgiving.
  • The inability to see who your opponent will be means that a level of reactionary strategy is effectively removed from the game, which puts the game further into RNG territory.
  • The RNG of items is severely problematic given their impact, especially early on. I've seen games where by the first Player vs. Player fight someone had 3 completed items and a level 2 Vayne (with Vayne-appropriate items) up against someone who -- through no fault of their own -- has just their starting item and mediocre champions.
  • It's frustrating that the exact same match (with the same units in the same position and with the same items) can turn out differently due to RNG mechanics. This makes it hard to tell how (or even if) you should re-position your team after any given fight, and that means that the perceivable impact of good build placement is significantly lessened. In fact, the inability to really predict how your units will move raises an even bigger problem: It is almost impossible to accurately strategize for your team's movement once the fight begins, which hurts the core concept of the game as one of strategic team construction. Of course, I understand that this is kind of a common element in the genre, but I'd like to see in-fight RNG lessened a bit so that I more often feel like my own choices had a greater impact on my victory.

Otherwise, combat is generally decent. It's fun to watch and gets very tense at times, and comebacks can be thrilling. While it's very frustrating to not really be able to pinpoint how you could have adjusted your team to win a fight that you lost (or sometimes to not know why you lost a fight as badly as you did), it still gets points for being visually appealing.

Really, though, there's something of a dealbreaker here: It is often impossible to look at a fight and know what you could have / should have done, and often a fight is just lost no matter what you do. Neither of those is great in a game intending to have ranked.


I think if Teamfight Tactics is going to find its legs as a competitive game, it needs to tone down the RNG slightly so that strategies can be more proactive. Having RNG in champions, carousal availability, items received, frequency of items received, opponents (at least unpredictable although not entirely random), and fight mechanics means that of the six main mechanics all six have moderate to severe RNG elements. It would be potentially valuable to see some of these mitigated (just a few -- RNG is definitely a part of this style of game, and shouldn't be removed or overly mitigated in too many of those mechanics), such as being able to see carousal availability in advance, getting to see the next Champion offering you'll get, being able to pick one of three of four items at breakpoints in the game (with reduced random items), the ability to over-pay to acquire a SPECIFIC champion, or similar. I think exploring mechanics like these could help bring the RNG elements of TFT in line to make it a bit more of a game of strategy and unit placement and a bit less like a game that feels like it's sometimes playing you.

95 Comments

goodiesohhi6/28/2019, 3:33:22 AM41 votes

I think the biggest problem is item rng. Having one player simply get more than another independent of what the players do but just because rng dictated it is by definition bad design. Also. while the carousel is a good implementation to the autochess mold, it's very clunky and you can't see any of your stuff but since this is just beta, I assume it will be upgraded in the future.

PowerOfDoi6/28/2019, 8:32:46 AM13 votes

shrug might as well stick this here then

So i see alot of people complaining about RNG, both here and on the Dota Underlords boards. Unit "RNG" is a staple of these games wich means you can't go into a game with a strategy in mind, you must adapt to what the shared global shop pool gives you. That being said TFT doesn't have any iirc, 9 unit synergies and where "other" games have most synergyes at breakpoints of 3, alot more here at at 2s (knights, gunslingers, rangers, wild) wich mean gives you alot of wiggle room to play with what is in the shop and not end up with an inferior build. I love this

In underlords there basically 3, meta comps right now, Mages, Hunters and Knights , these being tier S with Demons and Warriors and Druids argueably stitting at t1. Trying to build anything else will probably get you stomped by anyone playing meta even by accident. The thing is in underlords i feel i can build my comp as late as even round 15 and the sheer strenght of the bonuses (and the lack of item snowball) will carry me even if my line-up is underleveled. This is a good and bad thing. Overall i think i prefer TFT in this regard as you trully MUST adapt on the spot and not go in with an idea of "ok i'll go for 1 of the tier S comps and if X happens in a pinch i can stick with a Tier A comp". Some comps are better than others clearly, and you should know when you can go for them though. This is a plus on how the alliances and units are balanced against each other in a vacuum in TFT , you can win with "anything" as long as you play for economy and just outlevel your opponent ... hell i won with Pirate Gunslinger Assasins Imperial Knights yday AND i turned my Draven into my 3rd assasin by the end. Even had a lvl 2 MF.

HOWEVER

  1. Item rng flushes this all down the toilet and throws dynamite at it. While in terms of composition i can slap my hands stop being so greedy, not reroll and realize that comp i was being pulled into early isn't going to pan out and i should probably switch.... no amount of building and planning will stand up to the massive thunder cock of a triple item vayne... or darius ... or sol. Item NUMBER variance should not be a thing. Unit greed is mitigateable and in fact a component of playing autochess games. Knowing when to slap your hand off the reroll button and to play for eco, knowing when your line-up is "good enough" and you can float 30-40g to edge out a few upgrades, is a skill. People getting 5 items on round 4 is soooooo bad. It seems to be a point that's being hammered atm but here's my voice NORMALIZE ITEM DROPS FFS! At LEAST on the first 3 rounds, at least! Ti prego!

2) And maybe this should be 1) but i feel item snowballing really tosses any "tactics" out the window. Ow and for the love of all that is fluffy don't do what Blizzard did to legendary items in Legion. Having a specific legendary over a different one was a pretty big boost in power , like 15% more damage for having one Legendary instead of another one, so instead of boosting droprate or making the legendary's elective so people could get the ones that want instead of random ones, they just "normalized" - heavily nerfed - the good ones so everyone was "equal" ---- equally boring. The items should be powerfull and exicting. See point about unit balance. It shouldn't matter if you get a Rageblade and your opponent gets a Zephyr.

/rant sigh

  1. The UI is ...... erm "clearly rushed". Let's just put it that way. In short i tryed to get a friend to play the game yday a friend with hundreds of hours play in Auto-chess and Underlords. "Dude the opponents arn't beating me, this UI is" "So this is my first and last game of this "lovely" game , at least untill they fix this UI". And i aggre with him. I have patience for tediosness when i want something (and i really WANT to love this game) to rival the man in the iron mask but for god's sake how did you guys think this was OK?!

Units in the shop don't glow when they're an upgrade (considering i havn't seen people whine about this maybe i'm not noticing something?)

Left panel only shows what you have on the board. It does not show if there's is something in the bench that would add to your comp, it does not show if there's something in the SHOP that would add to the comp

Colour code Class / Origin icons please

No indication of what the enemy is playing

No indication of a units stats or class during the carousell

No indication of when my minion is going to be released from the carousell

No indication of what items combine into untill they're allready on a champion (god bless the 2nd monitor)

No Shortcut Key to lock the shop (really?).

No big indication that it is a new round, this is a niggle but honestly i've had many many instances of just sitting there and it took a good 5-10 seconds to realize "ow! it's a new round! i have gold and new units". Some text in the middle of the screen would be nice.

Aparently avatars cost like 100$? Really EA Riot?

Phreaktastic6/28/2019, 2:31:44 PM8 votes

The RNG of items is severely problematic given their impact, especially early on. I've seen games where by the first Player vs. Player fight someone had 3 completed items and a level 2 Vayne (with Vayne-appropriate items) up against someone who -- through no fault of their own -- has just their starting item and mediocre champions.

^ This. Hands down the most absurd, stupid, sloppy, lazy approach that could've been taken. Random items is fine. Getting literally nothing from creeps? Wtf was Rito thinking? It makes more sense now to simply quit a game instantly if you get absolutely nothing from the first creeps. That inherently means someone else got great items, while you were punished by the RNG gods and did not receive a single item. The rest of the game is 100% catch-up from that point forth. Not even worth playing.

DynamiteGazelle6/28/2019, 4:39:51 AM6 votes

I think the biggest issue for me (item RNG aside because we can all agree that needs to change) is that you can't see who your opponent will be or what their setup is like. If the game wants to earn the title "tactics" you need to be able to actively plan against your opponents decisions. I think some kind of tab showing your next opponents previous turn layout would be cool.

Irony Man996/28/2019, 5:04:30 AM4 votes

I agree with basicaly everything you're saying... like who decided it was a good idea to put ZERO TEXT ANYWHERE during the draft pool stage. A new player has no idea what order they will pick in or what the names or classes of champions up for grabs are

DUDE BRO6/28/2019, 6:18:05 AM4 votes

My biggest issue is not seeing your opponent. There's no 'tactics' involved here.

Forget repositioning against the enemy blitz/assassins/adc team, because you have no clue what will show up.

Just cross your fingers that your RNG was better than whoever happens to pop up on your board.

Myrmiron6/28/2019, 8:42:14 AM4 votes

Completely agree with the UI points. Disagree with the breakpoints point. If you remove breakpoints in favor of what you suggest, everyone would just always go for the high tier units as low tier units wouldn't be needed for the race/class buffs anymore, meaning the game would devolve into replacing your low tier units with whichever high tier units you roll without any strategic thoughts involved. To counteract this Riot would have to make the racial and class buffs so strong that they make low tier units equal or stronger to higher tier units, which would force builds down from very early on punishing strategy changes during later rounds extremely hard making the game far less dynamic and removing skill expression in favor of more hoping for good RNG.

Porglit6/28/2019, 12:18:28 PM3 votes

This may just be the most well-thought and articulated post on these forums. Thank you.

Raistlin6/28/2019, 2:58:27 PM3 votes

TO MAKE THIS PERFECTLY CLEAR FOR RIOT IN WORDS THEY CAN UNDERSTAND :

The idea about the mode is great, but "mechanics" of rng are killing the joy of playing, once players realise its almost entirely based on RNG they never return. TONE DOWN >>> R N G <<< INCREASE THE TACTICS !

Why the f does this mode has "TACTICS" in its name, is out of my wits. You can learn all of mechanics you need in 1-2games but you win only if you know what you are doing + you are lucky. There are tons of smart players that lose miserably becouse the rng does not give them their picks even after 50+ re-rolls. Or if they receive 1-2 items for the enteriety of one game.

Miserably Un-tactical mode. Wtf is wrong with your roll calculation engine, it can statistically make players never get champs they already own .......... even after hundred re-rolls. I do not find that smart nor tactical... Not to mention item implications they are off the charts.

[zombie-brand-clap]

TwitchInMyPants6/28/2019, 12:04:53 PM2 votes

Pretty much agree with everything but I have a couple notes

It's a bit unfortunate that every Role/Origin has breakpoints rather than flat growth. I think the mandatory breakpoints serve to make RNG more punishing and builds more locked in, while opening up a few of those might increase flexibility. For example: if Rangers or Assassins or anything with a +3/+6 bonus gave you scaling between those breakpoints, it wouldn't end up as punishing to not manage to roll that Legendary Kayle.

Just saying, things like Pirates, Phantom, Dragons, Elementalists or Blademasters wouldn't be able to work like this given their unique effects. There isn't really a half value for it and in a lot of cases offering a bonus for a solo synergy can risk being too powerful especially if it can upgrade. Solo synergies in Auto Chess games are meant to be rare so they're more impactful, League has 3 currently so as is its pretty fine.

Also I don't know how this could even work with more traditional effects like Yordles, Sorcerers, or Assassins. Yordles is 20% at 3, 50% at 6. Are you suggesting it go 5/10/20 or something even like 6/12/20? Because even if this approach was taken I feel like at a certain point the benchmark levels stop mattering and comps become about stacking gold units of any type.

It's frustrating that the exact same match (with the same units in the same position and with the same items) can turn out differently due to RNG mechanics. This makes it hard to tell how (or even if) you should re-position your team after any given fight, and that means that the perceivable impact of good build placement is significantly lessened. In fact, the inability to really predict how your units will move raises an even bigger problem: It is almost impossible to accurately strategize for your team's movement once the fight begins, which hurts the core concept of the game as one of strategic team construction.

This is entirely the map's fault honestly. I know you'll have rounds where the global 5% crit makes a difference, I've had assassin comps where my Kha'Zix with IE instantly crits someone and that entirely decided a fight. But when it comes to the question of where to position, it really has less to do with crits or dodges and more about watching where units move at the start of combat.

The issue is when items like Zeke's and Locket exist and a synergy like Guardian exists, you're forced to position in a clump to be optimal. You have 21 spaces to work with vs the 36 in DAC. In that game you can play around with positioning more in order to have assassin bait on your backline while letting your ranged carries be slightly back, or you can position in formations to counter mages and carries in more dynamic ways. As is in TFT, it feels like your only positioning choice is left, right, or center. You completely lose the vertical dimension that allows for dynamic positioning the way the current map is set up. And honestly losing this part of the strategy feels really bad, the only 3 parts of the strategy are unit choice, item choice, and positioning.

The23rdGamer6/28/2019, 8:44:38 AM2 votes

I was about to write this post (just less eloquently than you). Really think this post summarizes how I feel about Teamfight Tactics, and it's especially concerning (and threatening, I fear) to the longevity / replayability / integrity of a mode that is supposedly going to be integrated as a permanent ranked feature.

Jbels6/28/2019, 12:23:31 PM2 votes

IT isn't just item rng, they seriously need to tone it down everywhere. It feels super fucking shitty to want to go for a certain build (Let's say Noble Knights), only for the game to tell you "No, fuck you, here's 2 Shens, a Gangplank, a Katarina, and a Morgana. Oh don't even bother rerolling btw, at most only 2 or 3 champions will actually change, and they'll still not be what you want."

I want to build what I WANT to build, not what the game's rng is forcing down my throat.

Vlada Cut6/28/2019, 8:18:48 PM2 votes

I just want to freely unequip items and equip them to other champions withiut being forced to sell the equipled champion first. FFS

Noirals6/28/2019, 8:19:23 PM2 votes

In the interest of honesty, I hate this game mode. I have only played it once, halfway, then got bored and sold all my champions to speed up my exit from the game. To start with, as a novel game mode there should be more explanation into actually how to play the game successfully. I haven't played auto-'chess' before and likely won't after this. I found it extremely boring and less about skill than luck. Items and champs ought to be scaled better. I only received one item the entire time I played.

Perhaps this is more of my connotations with chess and the failure to meet those expectations. I will stick to chess. hehehe

5B Venkman6/28/2019, 9:11:24 PM2 votes

I wish there are more PvE turns or even better: Co-op PvE mod.

GGOver306/29/2019, 7:54:41 AM2 votes

I don't understand why people love this luck game ,0 skill, you just need pray you are luck enough to get item and hero [slayer-jinx-unamused]

OP Garen Support6/28/2019, 11:23:13 AM1 votes

The RNG is there so shit players can have a taste of victory as well.

But that begs the question how do they plan to have ranked for this mode if an Iron Tier player can beat a Challenger any day, just because of pure luck.

Pika Fox6/28/2019, 2:19:53 PM1 votes

The only other complaint i have not listed here is that if you die early, but are waiting on a friend high up, you literally have nothing you can do. It would be interesting to have a "team ghost" where the dead all get to work together on a board to face the odd number people left, or just give us something we can do idly or something while we wait other than passively watch.

KutterSlasher6/28/2019, 5:02:22 AM1 votes

Actually, enemy traits show. They're visual effects.

mrKev7/17/2019, 8:59:56 PM1 votes

As a new player, here is some additional feedback.

When cards pop up, indicate the on the cards when you already have one of them. Even better if you can indicate how many you have of each level. Have a way to give all the mobs name plates. This is especially important in the Carousal.

Add a training mode so new players don't have to jump straight into a multiplayer match. Add a simulation mode where you can create two teams and watch how they battle. Even better if you can pick teams from a list of recent games. (this will also help with balance feedback/testing from the community).

When you right click and your avatar runs around (or off the bottom), keep the screen in a fixed position. I keep right clicking places by mistake and my guy runs there, then I can't see the full match anymore.

Frost Ace7/1/2019, 1:56:35 AM1 votes

Item drops are stupid and absolutely need to be changed. This really is the only damning RNG factor.

The champion pool rng can probably be tweaked a little bit. Like, having certain units of a lower rarity are more likely to appear if you already have them recruited regardless of level. Its not nearly as bad as people are making it out to be though.