Shotgun Knees for Fun & Profit [Urgot Suggestion]

ModThe Djinn·Mar 27, 2018·77 votes·12,803 views

Hey all!

We all know that Urgot -- everyone's favorite monstrous half-man, half-robotic-spider -- suffers a bit itemization-wise and rune-wise. His 350 range isn't enough to make good use of a lot of ranged items and effects, but is sufficient to lock him out of a lot of great Juggernaut items and rune options. Our poor crab-man can't use Deadman's Plate, Sterak's Gage, or Titanic hydra at all, and takes an additional hit from weakened effects on the Conqueror rune and Frozen Mallet.

I've made a previous suggestion of giving Urgot an exclusive Noxian Black Market where he can buy special Urgot-only items that work for his unique kit (such as a Frozen Mallet that functions fully on ranged attacks, only available to Urgot), but I may have found a better solution.

##What if Urgot's Shotgun Knees counted the triggering auto-attack as a melee attack? You don't have to worry about constant slows or constant Conqueror refreshing until the highest levels, at which point it might well be appropriate for Urgot's scaling. It gives him the ability to purchase items he loves (such as Sterak's Gage), but limits his ability to apply them at range reliably.

Thoughts?

140 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoirMar 27, 201848 votes

Thoughts?

Urgot's systemic options feel pretty out of whack atm. He's clearly an exception champion, and imo, he gets the short of the stick all too often. Just last week I put a change into testing where he just got to be considered melee, though it was met with pretty negative internal feedback (which I understand). I agree he needs something, and your idea here seems like a decent compromise between being full ranged and full melee. I'm not sure what the future holds for him, but this is something I'd like to get resolved.

ModThe DjinnMar 27, 20186 votes

First off, thanks for popping by, and for your thoughts!

If you decide this compromise is worth testing, I'd love it if you could swing by and give us a follow-up. I'll admit it's mostly for my own curiosity, as if you do end up deciding it has potential I'd love to know the feedback regarding clarity and how it feels to play against (aspiring game designer here, clearly unable to test my own theories). I'm also not sure if Urgot's legs trigger their firing on attack start or attack land, but I suspect something like this might require them to be on attack cast to be predictable enough to play around.

My suspicion is that the melee/ranged effects aren't typically SO dramatic that it frustrates players or they're not sure what happened to them, but my stand-out concern is how Titanic Hydra's "on-next-hit" effect would work with this effect at higher cooldown values.

DragonSheaMar 28, 20185 votes

{quoted}

Urgot's systemic options feel pretty out of whack atm. He's clearly an exception champion, and imo, he gets the short of the stick all too often. Just last week I put a change into testing where he just got to be considered melee, though it was met with pretty negative internal feedback (which I understand). I agree he needs something, and your idea here seems like a decent compromise between being full ranged and full melee. I'm not sure what the future holds for him, but this is something I'd like to get resolved.

Like, I've said, make him a melee with a modified AA that has range.

Can't use: item 3085

can buy but not use on hit effects of, item 3074 item 3748 item 3742 but...

he can use: item 3053 item 3044 and item 3022 as like other melees.

DeadUnbornMar 28, 20181 votes

Honestly, I feel like too many Rioters take range/ melee classifications too anal-y. Just let Urgot and Tresh be melee... it's just too weird that they aren't and it shafts them out of many item options that just make sense on them... specially since Irelia currently has a 200 range AA.

Urgot: He can now use Frozen Mallet, Steracks, Titanic... If he becomes overbearing you tan nerf a ton of different things like base health, shotgun damage scaling, etc.

**Thresh: **He can use Glaciar augment and targons more effectively. If he becomes overbearing you just nerf E damage and/ or range.

SaezioMar 28, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Honestly, I feel like too many Rioters take range/ melee classifications too anal-y. Just let Urgot and Tresh be melee... it's just too weird that they aren't and it shafts them out of many item options that just make sense on them... specially since Irelia currently has a 200 range AA.

Urgot: He can now use Frozen Mallet, Steracks, Titanic... If he becomes overbearing you tan nerf a ton of different things like base health, shotgun damage scaling, etc.

**Thresh: **He can use Glaciar augment and targons more effectively. If he becomes overbearing you just nerf E damage and/ or range.

thresh does not need that buff, and full KV would make him even more op than he is at the moment, imagine all the grasp threshes bullying and getting perma HP and heal so often for full value. He is even pickbanned most LCS AND LCK matches. Urgot desperately needs that to become relevant. They don't need to make him melee even, just have in his passive that he can buy 1 melee item and have melee rune values or somewhat, would be a huge improvement.

DeadUnbornMar 28, 20181 votes

Thresh: He can use Glaciar augment and targons more effectively. If he becomes overbearing you just nerf E damage and/ or range.

SaezioMar 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

why when he already is in a great spot? he doesn't need that. He is great with guardian/aftershock he has an auto amplifier that makes lasthitting easy, +making him melee for some aspects while ranged for other will almost definitely be problematic. I do not get why you want augment on him so much, he has great rune options and he doesn't need another slow.

DeadUnbornMar 28, 20181 votes

Read my previous post again. I answered everything you are asking. I want him to be melee all the time... and I want it for targons and his type being counter intuitive at the moment, notfor glaciar. I just acknowledge being melee would be a buff in that regard

SaezioMar 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Read my previous post again. I answered everything you are asking. I want him to be melee all the time... and I want it for targons and his type being counter intuitive at the moment, notfor glaciar. I just acknowledge being melee would be a buff in that regard

It would be logical to ask for buffs/changes when the champion is underperforming is all i am saying, thresh is performing greatly at the moment. And giving him full access to KV especially would straight up make him broken for pro play (he is already pretty high up the pickban list depending on the player) thus prompting nerfs in the future that may (or may not) rend him useless and, given Riot's past record of balancing, I would not take that risk. What I am saying fundamentally is: don't fix what is not broken.

PS : Unless you mean to make his range actually melee, like 150 range, but then we are talking animation changes, AD, AS, MR and /lvl values changed and the whole deal sounds troublesome for a champion that is not suffering.

DeadUnbornMar 28, 20181 votes

Your premise is wrong. Characters like ahri and rek sai got changed without under performing. Irelia and poppy also have extended attack ranges

SaezioMar 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Your premise is wrong. Characters like ahri and rek sai got changed without under performing. Irelia and poppy also have extended attack ranges

Ahri got minor changes really, her playstyle was not altered at all, not even close to changing a characters melee/ranged status. Reksai's ultimate was quite problematic to value since it could be godlike in proplay where she could splitpush one lane while having R to rejoin the team, and being basically a "resume jungle farming" button in soloque in the best case scenario. Thresh at the moment is either S or A tier both soloq and proplay and his kit has cohesion. Changing him to be ~150 range would gut his lanephase severely, while keeping his range and being coded as melee would make him broken (in pro at minimum) and then would need to trim power off of essential parts of his kit like his E. Sorry but i will not reply to you again because your answers are not replying to what i am saying

DeadUnbornMar 28, 20181 votes

Loll. I cant argue your opinion. That is why I dont comment on that. For example "ahir has minor changes" is very subjective. Gangplank only had his E changed and his gameplay changed drastically. Oh and I never said to change thresh in the way you did btw. Akso why even comment in the first place uf you dont plan to reply again xd?

HäxelMar 28, 20181 votes

Fiddlesticks 480 Ivern (with Brushmaker passive), Karthus, Vladimir, Morgana, Thresh 450 Graves 425 Mini Gnar (with Rage Gene at level 1) 400 Urgot 350 Rakan 300 Rakan (with The Quickness) 50

Just wanted to show which Champions all fall under 500 Range. Why eactly should just Urgot and Thresh fall under melee? Urgot is not even the lowest considering Rakan. Thresh is pretty high and at the same range as Vladimir and Morgana who also could love to better use Glacial Augment and/or Targons more effectively. Graves is bewteen both and kinda similar to Urgot. While seeing Urgot as a Juggernaut you can see Graves at least as half of a Juggernaut (which his mr Buff validates).

Also there a fans of adc thresh for quite some reasons, beeing able to proc Runans just one of it. I would be certainly sure threhs is fien with his range and jsut to enrf it for targosn procs would be dumb. You can also go Coin or use your skill for good lasthits (especialy with thresh e passive), but the ability to have ranged autoattacks in lane and to eb ablte to harass enemies, especialy enemy melee supports, is just straight up better.

DeadUnbornMar 28, 20181 votes

They should be the only ones cause it enhaces their biuld paths. For rakan I dont play him enough to know which would be better, but all the other champions have better build paths the way they are now

HäxelMar 28, 20181 votes

Strange cause like i told: Thresh can be played with coin. We saw it even on Lcs Hakuho this weekend. In which way does targons enhaces threshs buildpath more as coin? Yea, targons gives more health but coin gives Movementspeed and cdr at tier 1 already while tier 3 targons gives cdr. The early cdr plus the movementspeed can help thresh to get more and better hooks. Coin also drops manacoin which enables more hooks too. This also supports Blitzcranks Playstyle by the way but there are huge diffrences between thse 2 champions or Tanks and Thresh in general:

Thresh has Range. He can harass and proc Glaical far easier. To give it an even strong slow as for melees would be dumb. To give him a strong sustain from Grasp or Targons while he can harass others and be semi tanky is not fair too.
Thresh is not a full tank. Same way as Graves is not a Full Juggernaut. Thresh is a playmaker. He can hook, he can swing himself in, he can let others follow up with his w or let others escape with w from a very big range (not like tham who neeeds to get close). E and Ult both are good protect and engage followups.

For Urgot i made other threads here already. Short Version: I kinda like the idea of op to make him only melee during w. But making him full melee would only make him an Upgraded Gnar. (And Tiamat items should never be available for him).

DeadUnbornMar 28, 20181 votes

Cool, cant really add anything to your opinion though xd. Just saying you and others here tunnel vision on categorizations way too much. The goal should always be to make cohesive champs

HäxelMar 28, 20181 votes

Don't think so. I once tunneled about magic resist. There were some champs who didn' t have the full mr bonus but riot got mostly rid of it, only kassadin left. But still we have exceptions like ivern (basicly a rangeswitcher similar to kayle, gnar, jayce and co), sejuani (passive), talon (got a ridiculous mr buff while they also could have added just health and enrfed armor for same amount of powerstrenght) but now i'm ok with that. Urgot already gets mr like a melee (even gets more as yasuo where they changed him enarly to melee but forgot to add 2.1 mr to the base) or graves geting mr between both worlds of melee and range. Fine with that. What i don't think is necesary to make every champion unique about itemization or every rule. Urgot is in the end a range champion who can kite far more effectivly as any melee. Sure, an aatrox with ult outranges him but aatrox ult is neither all time on nor in a short cd (and aatrox has not the best cdr items and gets reworked). Urgot also has the executionult which gives hima unique strenght no other champion regardless melee or range has. Why exactly should he get full melee item advantages if he can bully and execute them in lane?

DeadUnbornMar 28, 20181 votes

Urgot already gets mr like a melee (even gets more as yasuo where they changed him enarly to melee but forgot to add 2.1 mr to the base) or graves geting mr between both worlds of melee and range. Fine with that.

Supports my point

What i don't think is necesary to make every champion unique about itemization or every rule.

Never said that either

Why exactly should he get full melee item advantages if he can bully and execute them in lane?

Because it makes for more interesting decision-making building items without overly buffing him

HäxelMar 29, 20181 votes

Because it makes for more interesting decision-making building items without overly buffing him

A change to full melee would be a total overbuff. Would be a total nightmare of balance like how gnar was for 3 years and still is.

The Djinn idea, to make Urgot count as melee only during w there he has clear strenghts and weaknesses as well as a window there you can decide for more intersting itembuild would not be an overbuff. What you want is a change that would put him on a level ther eurgot would get balanced similar to Ryze: Just for the people on the high ladder so he doesn't destroy lcs. I would rather have ok damage numbers and how the spellls work at the moment as beeing melee while riot nerfs every ability, stat or interaction like how they gutted lb w or reworked ryze dozens time and kept first the zhonyas ult interaction, then removed it. And riot knows that. Repertoir already stated here while he shortly tested it like that imidiatly came negative feedback. Like what "more interesting decision-making building items"? He already builds bc and mallet. It would just get stronger with any change. All that would change is that he could build steraks. An item that makes urgot who already builds quite tanky even more tanky and deale ven more damage. If riot wants to add that: fine, but at least make it windowed like how it is on gnar or jayce.

You know the diffrence between jayce and urgot? Its not that Jayce has depending on form either 150 more range or 225 less cause in the end in range form both harass melee bruisers adn tanks good in lane. The diffrence is that Jayce builds full damage. If he would build tanky like urgot he would deal no damage and still be worse as a tank building tanky cause why? Tanks have shields(or heals) that support even more their tankitempaths and often also some good %healthdamage on their kits too that leads them to still eb dangerous even if they not build a lot of ad or ap. Guess what Urgot has? He has a shield on his w, %healthdamage on his passive and even if urgot builds full tank he would still kill a target in a teamwith with his ult that is guaranteed to execute regardless what you build. All this toggether would be maybe or similar to a darius or garen, but they have not 350 autoattackrange and also not a 1600 range executioner. They also not have real shields by the way, shields are more of a Vanguard/Warden tradeoff and not of a Juggernaut cause beside Urgot only Udyr and Mordekaiser tend to have shields too, not the best exampels of good balanced champions cause both need a rework. And for tanks steraks isn't even a good item but for urgot it totaly would be

So Urgot, one of theminority of Juggernauts who already ahve shields in their kit and the only juggernaut with constant range harassment: Should be able to purchase another shielditem beeing able to proc anytime? Hell no. Give him if you want the ability to buy it, use the stats and to proc the shield during w. Nerf maybe how long w is up or the cd. But in no way make Urgot constantly tankier as he is right now while adding even more damage to him. If hiw w runs off i want thhe damm ability to kill him and not to go threw another shield till his w is up again. With good w use he can tank some good damage away but with bad you should be able to play around him. Like he already has maw as an alternative making it hard for magic damage dealers. Bruisers top or any ad champion should not also suffer from a more tanky urgot all the time.

And urgotpalyers should not suffer from balance nightmares similar to ryze, azir, kalista, gnar and co.

DeadUnbornMar 29, 20181 votes

you do like your walls of text a lot. Look I won't argue baseless speculation, I never do. Just as you wrote that long text I could write one counter arguing all the "balance nightmares" you describe.

And no, Thresh wouldn't be a nightmare to balance if he became melee, he builds melee support items mostly anyhow. The only buffs would be glacial augment (which isn't even a core rune on him because he would give up a ton of tankiness for it and it would be redundant/suboptimal with his E and R) and targons proc which only helps him be more cohesive and noob friendly

HäxelMar 29, 20181 votes

and you like to hip hop between arguing about urgot and thresh constantly. ALso ignoring hot strong both already are vs melee matchups and no real reason to buff them with their current strenght besdie "more options" which doesn't realy say more options but that the options are just stronger on them.

SaezioMar 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Strange cause like i told: Thresh can be played with coin. We saw it even on Lcs Hakuho this weekend. In which way does targons enhaces threshs buildpath more as coin? Yea, targons gives more health but coin gives Movementspeed and cdr at tier 1 already while tier 3 targons gives cdr. The early cdr plus the movementspeed can help thresh to get more and better hooks. Coin also drops manacoin which enables more hooks too. This also supports Blitzcranks Playstyle by the way but there are huge diffrences between thse 2 champions or Tanks and Thresh in general:

Thresh has Range. He can harass and proc Glaical far easier. To give it an even strong slow as for melees would be dumb. To give him a strong sustain from Grasp or Targons while he can harass others and be semi tanky is not fair too.

Thresh is not a full tank. Same way as Graves is not a Full Juggernaut. Thresh is a playmaker. He can hook, he can swing himself in, he can let others follow up with his w or let others escape with w from a very big range (not like tham who neeeds to get close). E and Ult both are good protect and engage followups.

For Graves i made other threads here already. Short Version: I kinda like the idea of op to make him only melee during w. But making him full melee would only make him an Upgraded Gnar. (And Tiamatitems should never be available for him).

graves? I agree with everything u say about Thresh but maybe u meant Urgot a couple times.

HäxelMar 28, 20181 votes

yea, last part i made the mistake to write graves instead of urgot. First part was right (seeing urgot as a full jugernaut and graves as a half).

GeminiOSApr 1, 20181 votes

Here's why, at least in Urgot's case, being classified as ranged is a problem. Urgot is a tanky/bruiser top laner that some would consider juggernaut like. Now, being that Urgot is ranged, he doesn't have access to the same items that the champions of the same style do, which puts him at a disadvantage. Now, to make up for this, he would have to have another strength somewhere else right? So, instead of having those items Urgot is ranged, and everything is balanced right? Wrong. Let me use Caitlyn as an example. Why is Caitlyn so strong in lane? One of the reasons is because she can attack most enemy laners without entering their engage range. Caitlyn can auto champions from a point that champions cannot easily attack her back, not to mention her q can outrange most champs as well. So for Urgot's range to be a strength, he would need to be able to attack champions in the same way as Caitlyn. However, 350 range is not large enough to possibly be able to escape most laners' attacks. Back to Caitlyn again, having 600 range doesn't mean enemies can't reach her with their abilities, it means that she has enough distance and therefore enough time to avoid most attacks if she is skilled enough. Her q range is a whole 'nother can of worm that I really don't want to get into. Urgot does not have this advantage considering Urgot has no time to avoid any of his enemy laner's engage because to auto them at 350 range he has to get too close and there isn't enough buffer room to dodge abilities. Trust me, try dodging a Darius e at Urgot auto range, you can't without flash. So essentially, for what Urgot loses when fighting champions by being a ranged champ, his auto range does not make up for it. The next solution one could think of is to raise the auto range on Urgot right? Well, no, that would be busted. Urgot, as I stated before, is a tanky/bruiser style of champ. He can get up close and personal with an enemy champ and do just fine. This is why giving him regular adc range would be terrible. He would be able to constantly poke from a distance unable to be engaged on. Think about it, if you tried to engage on him, he wouldn't care, unlike adcs he thrives in close up fights. Which brings up another point of why adcs can have large auto ranges. The flip-side for adcs is that with their long auto ranges, they can't handle up close and personal fights as most lack innate bulk and major cc in their kit. Urgot does not suffer from this being that he has a slow and a displacement, along with the hardest cc to deal with strapped onto his ult: Death. He can't be made to have regular auto range for that reason, and he suffers if he has 350 auto range, so there only really are 2 common solutions left. First one being allow him to use melee only items because 350 auto range isn't too much of an advantage, or do what The Djinn recommended earlier. To be honest, if they are really afraid that 350 auto range is too much, just reduce it to Rakan level at 300, and give him melee items. We even have Kai'sa as a perfect example of how much that 50 attack range really matters. So there, that's my doctoral thesis for you, and i hope you're still awake at this point [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

HäxelApr 2, 20181 votes

2 Things first:

Kai'sa got buffed by 25 Range, from 500 to 525. Caitlyn also has 650 Range.
Yes, 350 Range is definetly large enough to escape most of the laners attacks.
I personaly kinda like The Djinns suggestion but i am totaly against to give him total melee advantages all the time rather as never or part time (during w) and here is why: Your caitlyn comparison is wrong on diffrent sides. That "enough distance" is definetly not the point most times considering botlane is a 2v2 lane there most times at least 2 champions are range (adcs) and supports are either range vs range, melee vs melee or range vs melee. The whole botlane dynamic is totaly diffrent as on toplane. Farthermore do both classes, adcs and supports, often have high range abilitys much diffrent to toplane.

You gave the exampel with Darius e which has a range of 535. Well Alistar w has a range of 650. Braum Ult has a 1250 Range. Taric e 575, lowest range engage (works also as disengage) but on 2 champions. Blitzcrank Ult alone has 600 Range. And theses were just some of the Melee Supports. Ofcourse the Range of the range supports and adcs is mostly consistent higher. Lowrange adcs have mobility, Rangesupports have often movementspeed boni in their kit and from mobiboots. There is often time to trade with Caitlyn. I want to compare how both, Urot and Caitlyn, can deal with engages cause both have their e. Still what did you say again, not while you complained about how easy champs like Darius can enage but farther down:

He can get up close and personal with an enemy champ and do just fine...Think about it, if you tried to engage on him, he wouldn't care, unlike adcs he thrives in close up fights... The flip-side for adcs is that with their long auto ranges, they can't handle up close and personal fights as most lack innate bulk and major cc in their kit. Urgot does not suffer from this being that he has a slow and a displacement, along with the hardest cc to deal with strapped onto his ult: Death.

So you say champs like Darius can engage him very easy but at the same time that he doesn't care much about engages cause he loves that and is tanky and has a good kit. So what should i believe? I believe your second part is true but lets just assume that wouldn't be, that he is squishy and fears darius: Well, if Darius hooks him Urgot can easily e away again. If a renekton dashes threw urgot, urgot just e away and even throws renekton back behind him again and stuns him briefly. After that he can use his q or ult to slow them. Well that was easy but what if the second part is also true? Lets discuss this later.

2 Points Urgots enemies have to deal with much harder as caitlyns enemies: Not much healing/protection and minionaggro plus creepblock. On Botlane the Heal/shieldsupports give some defence vs caitlyns autos. Even most melee supports have some protection beside enages (exception leona and nunu), but even these 2 can heal up with relic shield tiemline. If Botlane trades they can clear waves easy with2 together and they also can tank them easier with 2. Rangechamps (so adcs always) can easier escape the aggro and not stay in creppblock. Botlanebrushes also are far bigger and with that easier to reach for geting off aggro, but mostly it is enough to just walk back a bit. Toplane has no shielding or ehaling support. Also they clear waves slower, need to tank creeps alone and stay than in the middle of a creepwave there minionblock can happen. Yes Urgots thick model and 350 range doesn't negate all of the melee downsides but still he can far easier poke and just step away to reset minionaggro again. He also has w as a shield to tank up miniondamage too and it gives him the ghost effect aka no creepblock, Now to continue whre we stopped before at what happens if Urgot realy likes to fight even close. We have Darius as a Juggernaut and Renekton as a Diver. What happens if Darius or Renekton engages succesfuly with ew and Urgot tries not to run away? Well he would put on his w, with good reactions before they use their w, and try to mark them with q, also maybe clearing already some minions. With w urgot is already tankier and tanks the minions far easier. Sure the 2 exampels Darius and Renekton can heal up with their q, but if Urgot doesn't run away and stays close Darius will neither apply passive or heal himself with q on Urgot and can just try to clear some minions and to heal on them himself up. Renekton has a problem on how to use his e recast: Will he dash threw Urgot if the first was just to come in range for the stun? Than he would intentionaly throw himself for more damage of Urgots passive while Urgot still has e up. If Renekton just does ewq with some autos threw the autoattackresets and than e away again, he will have nothing up for some time giving Urgot the posibility to autoattack him down and go for the q slow and e follow while, like i said before, taking not much damage from minions and no minion block cause w. So not only can win Urgot vs Divers and Juggernauts, he also has the posibility to escape them if he fears fights and has no guts to use his true potential.

And Urgot also not builds squishy. He builds like a Juggernaut if not even more tankier. Even with weaker effects for range he still goes currently Black Cleaver and Frozen Mallet for a good amount of Ad, healht, additional Mobility and additional slows which strenghtens his bully potential. Only item he can could want but currently can't get is Steraks which would him make far tankier as he already is over the other "Bruisers". Like if a Darius goes Steraks he has a shield like Urgot. If Urgot could go Steraks and it would be usable all time he would have 2 shields all time. Urgot would be as tanky as a tank while doing far more damage AND being range.

Now here is why i like The Djinns idea kinda: If urgot just counts during w as melee, his w tradeoffs can balance him during that stance. W is not always up and while it is up just not focus Urgot so Steraks doesn't activate. ofcourse you can not always do that but having to deal with w steraks while they add each other gives Urgot a good strong point to fight. But if both falls down he is even more an easier target (cause steraks probably repalced a full tankitem). W slows Urgot but also gives him slow resist. Now w negative effects are strongest in the early game but even if Phage would Speed Urgot more up during w cause he counts as a Melee and the Mallet would slow far more, Urgot being self slowed cause his w makes it kinda bet cause the phaemovementspeed even on melee is not as much as w slows him. Now here are my 2 concerns: With Swiftnessboots Urgot even weakens his selfslow and the +60ms and the phagebonus would make Urgot w nearly make no tradeoffs. Plus the slow on malles which is effectivly doubled. Like enemies have a much harder time to stay close to urgot so he can kite far better (nice "melee" he would be) but also they can't as easy escape his w range which leads to them geting far more damage from Urgot, even if he didn't mark them cause they just stay longer in the closest range. At least q slow on urgot is dodgeable and just for 0.6s, but in a fight with no minions near Urgot w is an autoslow and 40% would be much. Well the first part could at least be solved with increasing the movementspeed punish of w or/and make swiftness boots no longer effect selfslows, but the frozen mallet effect is hard and just by increasing the w selfslow i don't realy know if that would be ok to deal with. After all it effects even Divers who want just to pass urgot and attack the backline, they would have a much harder time to reach that. But nerfing Mallet could than just be made for all melees. Well, Riot mentioned they want to rework Mallet entirly but not sure if that realy happens, when and how it will look, especialy melee/range diffrences.

Sahn UzalMar 28, 20182 votes

May I ask what resulted in the Negative Internal feedback? What was the issue with it? (or were the issues, if multiple ones popped up)

The KoolAidMan1Mar 28, 20183 votes

Please please please help Urgot. It concerns me that a lot of people in your office disagree with you. He has been hit with countless indirect nerfs because of his niche of a niche kit. He’s been locked out of the items he wants for his play style (SG) the most. He gets the short end of the stick on counter items (bramble vest and his W interaction). His ult (which should be unstopable) is countered or prevented by way to many things.

He is starting to feel like the old urgot minus a few items old urgot could build (tear builds). You literally have to build the same items every game because they are the only 4-5 items that make sense and are not troll. Also mini black cleaver all his items are tank which just feels bad.

I love this champ please scream and shout in your riot meeting to get them to address him. I have to believe that from a design perspective and playability standpoint that he isn’t hitting the mark and is just a nightmare to balance (which is why is just weak). There are so many things you can do to help him but itemization and access to items that fit his role is what’s killing him. He isn’t OP into anything anymore even the matchups he should win so please don’t hasitate to pull the levers before this champ is lost.

Ps - please don’t tie his changes to the mid season bot lane expansion. Don’t get me wrong it sounds ambitious and I hope it works out, but urgot it already a niche of a niche champ and adding him to another niche role might just make home forgotten and we are back to where we started.

Zoli BenMar 28, 20182 votes

I've made a previous suggestion of giving Urgot an exclusive Noxian Black Market where he can buy special Urgot-only items that work for his unique kit (such as a Frozen Mallet that functions fully on ranged attacks, only available to Urgot), but I may have found a better solution.

This is the best solution, I dont want to lose Runaan, I sometimes like to buy it and the crit with shotgun from it often gets me just enough to get somebody meatgrinded, plus because of the shotgun and W synergy, it helps me catch up my farm disadvantage if I have. Please do not butcher me because I am a minority for liking ranged Urgot.

True, he needs something which is why he needs this black market IMO.

OurLestradeMar 27, 20188 votes

Sounds like a reasonable exception, agreed.

WiegrafOfValorMar 27, 20187 votes

I don't like this, I think Juggernauts needs more items, not only Urgot, although you make a good point about him being a ranged Juggernaut.

I think Urgot should have an inherit item like Victor, could be his crab-metal-legs, making him impossible to buy boots similarly to Cassiopeia. Then you can upgrade his legs with more speed, durability, shotgun-damage, new effects, etc...

What do you think? On top of that I think Riot should make at least one or two items for Juggernauts.

ModThe DjinnMar 27, 20186 votes

{quoted}What do you think? On top of that I think Riot should make at least one or two items for Juggernauts.

I think giving Juggernauts more items wouldn't necessarily solve Urgot's problems, as making those items melee-only is one of the best ways to keep ADCs or characters like Thresh or Gnar from abusing them. My suspicion is that without something like this Urgot will always end up oddly supported.

I'm also not big on unique items for Urgot that don't fill in for existing items -- he's a complicated character as-is, and I think gluing a unique upgrade system on him would overburden his knowledge requirement. In general I'm not really a fan of the "unique item" idea either, as it actually restricts builds in a lot of cases.

ModKnightsKemplarMar 27, 20184 votes

I think this is a wonderful idea.

Just to play devil's advocate for a moment, I do think you can argue that it would put undo burden on the enemy; they should be paying attention to that anyway, but I think that's the strongest counter I can make.

DragonSheaMar 27, 20182 votes

Urgot should be classified as a melee but his AA should be considered ranged. This would allow him to gain the full benefit of melee items but also deny him the ability to use item 3085 or Hydra items

ModThe DjinnMar 27, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Urgot should be classified as a melee but his AA should be considered ranged. This would allow him to gain the full benefit of melee items but also deny him the ability to use or Hydra items

I feel like that's the least clear of BOTH worlds though. If I buy a melee item I expect it to work. :(

DragonSheaMar 27, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NOg13T1Q,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2018-03-27T20:12:57.621+0000)

I feel like that's the least clear of BOTH worlds though. If I buy a melee item I expect it to work. :(

Buddy, he would be able to use, item 3053 and item 3044 and item 3022 like he is a melee.

Devilreaper XIIIMar 27, 20181 votes

yeah lets buff a overpowered 100% garanteed to kill you tank some more....[zombie-brand-facepalm]

SilverjustMar 27, 20187 votes

tank?

Z3SleeperMar 27, 201813 votes

Not JUST a tank. An,

https://i.imgflip.com/278xq1.jpg

Devilreaper XIIIMar 27, 20181 votes

{quoted}

tank?

yes.... hes a tank, tanks atm cause way too much damage, in my opinion urgod needs a overall defence nerf so he can be a fighter or something.

SilverjustMar 27, 20185 votes

He is definitly a juggernaut like darius, garen or mundo. He does not have enough CC to be a tank, but he has high mediumranged damage and builds tanky --> Juggernaut

Devilreaper XIIIMar 27, 20181 votes

{quoted}

He is definitly a juggernaut like darius, garen or mundo. He does not have enough CC to be a tank, but he has high mediumranged damage and builds tanky --> Juggernaut

juggernauts are tanks with too much damage..... cc has nothing to do with tanks, the whole definition of tank = to absorb damage i mean urgod definitely absorbs ALOT of damage, and causes massive damage as well, its a bit overpowered, like leona full ad is still capable of tanking, same with taric same with nasus and sion, its a mixture of both bad itemization and bad base stats/stat growth.

MuffledGarbageMar 27, 20183 votes

ADCs are just tanks with insane amounts of damage and no defenses and not much CC

Assassins are just tanks with no CC and a bunch of damage

Mages are just tanks with more damage and less defenses

Supports are just tanks with more shields and speed boosts and less defenses

[zombie-brand-mindblown]

Z3SleeperMar 28, 20183 votes

Tanks are basically just ADCs with less damage, more defenses and more CC

The VolcanoMar 28, 20181 votes

There is one problem with doing this is that he would benefit from on hits twice once from the shotgun knees and once from the auto attack meaning items like item 3153 item 3042 item 3091 would start getting ridiculous slap a item 3124 on and we might have a serious problem.

ModThe DjinnMar 28, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Volcano,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NOg13T1Q,comment-id=0012,timestamp=2018-03-28T02:16:18.757+0000)

There is one problem with doing this is that he would benefit from on hits twice once from the shotgun knees and once from the auto attack meaning items like would start getting ridiculous slap a on and we might have a serious problem.

It wouldn't -- notice that I didn't say the shotgun knee ITSELF was the auto-attack. The suggestion here is that, on any attack that activates a shotgun knee counts as a melee attack instead of (or in addition to) a ranged attack. So it's a single proc still -- only the type of the auto-attack changes.

BurnTheSteak87Mar 28, 20182 votes

Urgot built with 4 defensive items gets melted in team fights by adcarries and skirmishers, guess what happens when he's built with offensive items...

BurnTheSteak87Mar 28, 20181 votes

■ Urgot needs item 3053 for surviving/having an edge during focusfire in teamfights. His survival chances during mid to late game teamfights has gone down since the big change to Sterak's Gage. item 3193 doesn't work properly with his kit and there are no other valid damage soaking options ( item 3812 is trash honestly, let's not take it in consideration). That's the reason most Urgot mains were taking the multinerfed Aftershock.

Wouldn't making only Echoing Flames procs melee keep him out of Sterak's Gage?

Working around the 350 melee range limit to enable Melee Only items should do the job.

■ item 3022 permaslow has always been an ok feature on a Juggernaut. If you make the mistake of ending up under him, you pay. Expecially nowdays where every champ has some sort of big mobility tool outside flash. The only problem comes from Gnar and many ADCarries with mobility abusing it.

I've always suggested into adding that removed 10% slow to Urgot's W or P procs.

■ Urgot also would like having more access to keystones like Conqueror. However Grasp and Glacial Augment wouldn't be fitting into his kit that much. There're better alternatives.

ModThe DjinnMar 28, 20182 votes

{quoted}Wouldn't making only Echoing Flames procs melee keep him out of Sterak's Gage?

No, as since he has melee attacks he could purchase melee-only items. Sterak's Gage would actually work 100% of the time for him, as it doesn't actually have any melee-exclusive components. The only place the melee/ranged conversion would matter is on things like Frozen Mallet or Guinsoo's, which have specific effects on melee attacks.

BurnTheSteak87Mar 28, 20181 votes

I also like a lot the idea of the "Black Market" or the specific item changes, since at Lore level, Urgot adapted dig machinnery into weapons to its body.

Why wouldn't him have many specific items changed a bit for himself? Ornn does it too.

And it wouldn't clash with item slots like Viktor's augment.

After all, Urgot is an exception, exceptional rules balancing it must be made.

ModThe DjinnMar 28, 20184 votes

{quoted}I also like a lot the idea of the "Black Market" or the specific item changes, since at Lore level, Urgot adapted dig machinnery into weapons to its body.

Yep! That's the reason I had that suggestion previously as well -- I just think the suggestion above is cleaner and a bit easier to maintain, as you don't need to buff/balance Urgot-specific items every time either.