Boards›Concepts & Creations

Champion Concept: Bringing back old Karma as a new champion

Forbidden Siren··59 votes·8,116 views

I would say there are a lot of people who miss old Karma, myself included. Although I do like current Karma as well but there are some things I miss about Karma. Such as her fans as a weapon and her duality-style gameplay. I think it’s safe to say IF old Karma gets reworked today compared to the past, she would still have her fans and her kit wouldn’t be massively changed as we have plenty of other duality champs like Jayce and Nidalee.

Since I doubt they’ll rework current Karma back to her old self, I propose they simply make a new champion based on old Karma in terms of weapon and gameplay, as well as do it in a way in which she was originally intended. Her original gameplay was different, it’s about choices between Q damage and RQ heal (and so forth). Right now, current Karma is about Q damage and RQ for more damage. That’s pretty generic, to say the least.

So I was thinking the champion could be related to Karma. Maybe a sister? It would be cool to get another champion that’s related to another again. I remember old Karma was about Yin and Yang. So Karma could be the Yin and her sister could be the Yang.

Just a thought.

62 Comments

Thryale18 votes

Sounds like an idea to me. I thought the whole "karma's sister" was the best way to bring old karma back into league.

Also, I said it back then, and I'll say it again now: The only thing wrong with old karma was her W.

Old karma scaled incredibly well with gold, but back when she was released, she was stuck with "support" as her primary role. A role that got 0 gold at the time due to no cs and bad gold gen items, and being the only member on the team that was supposed to buy wards. (no 3 ward cap back then) And if you dared to play karma in any other lane, you were ridiculed at best and at worst, your team would become down right toxic, giving death threats, blaming for the loss regardless of performance, and a myriad of other problems.

If old karma were to be brought back, I'd like her old Q and old E to stay relatively unchanged. but I think her W has room for improvement. She should also be labled with "mage" as her primary role with "support" as her secondary.

Drive My Soul13 votes

I miss the old Karma. They removed everything unique about her.

Thryale4 votes

Yeah. I loved running max cdr on old karma. And running chalice meant I had infinite sustain and almost never needed to back (chalice didn't upgrade to athene's back then, so ppl ridiculed me for using it)

But two of my favorite aspects of old karma was: 1) with max cdr and roughly 500 ap, I could keep a 700hp shield up almost permanently. (10 secs at rank 6 -> 6 with max cdr, barrier had a 5 sec up time) and 2) shield bomb, shield bomb for days! The aoe of her shield bomb was as large as an amumu ult, and it did exactly the same amount of damage as it shielded for. So a well placed shield bomb could easily turn the tide of any team fight by giving whomever the enemy is focusing an extra 700hp while stripping the enemy of 700(minus resistances)hp. It was awesome.

EDIT: oh, and wave clear, if morde was king of wave clear back in the day, karma was queen

AutoreactiveCD46 votes

Old Karma's theme of duality was very well done, better than any other champ in my opinion. Mantra would turn your main damage ability into a heal for yourself and allies, while it also turned your shield into a damaging ability. Also the passive just screamed "Keep hurting me and I'll hurt you more." They lost that part of her after the rework. It's really sad cause recently riot has been going out of there way to keep themes of the new reworked champions.

It also kinda stings that one of their main reasons for reworking her was basically she's only good if your team knows how to use her and they want to highlight the individuals skill. Now a lot of the newer champs have mechanics like that. Tahm's ult, Kalista's ult, Bard's e to some extent.

Another thing they wanted to do with Karma was keep her as both a mid laner and a support. They recently changed the way her e worked to intentionally push her more into the support role.

I get that riot's philosophies may change in some aspects as they grow as a company but it really looks like Karma just keeps getting shafted.

Thryale3 votes

Karma who?

/s

XD But yeah, karma has really suffered for a lot of external reasons. Bad meta, stigma of season 2 support, 0 visibility rework, etc etc

AutoreactiveCD42 votes

That joke. This man knows.

Axis the Dragon1 votes

It's funny because Karma who? and SSoTP are both older than Nerf Irelia, yet they're both pretty much forgotten xD

AutoreactiveCD41 votes

SSoTP was before me. I miss dirty runt of the litter trundle though. So much character gone. I'll always remember those fateful words, "What started out as a badass ice skin...". :'( gets me everytime.

Axis the Dragon1 votes

=/ It really is a shame. Trundle had one of the best backstories amongst the Champs (while simultaneously being THE best "fuck you"/revenge story in League) xD

AutoreactiveCD41 votes

Born a freak and persecuted for it. Despite this he sacrificed for those that hated him. They treated him even worse afterwards. Hits me in the feels everytime.

jjookkeerr6 votes

yes but plz dont oversexualize her like mai and kitana. Karma dont need it

luckeyjoker4 votes

Oh gosh please Karma seem like a champ they actually put thought time and effort before releasing her. I would be happy if heavenly wave makes a return along with inner flame. I miss shield bombing and when they took it out it felt like they were waiting for that to happen.

Thryale4 votes

tbh, I don't think inner flame was A) overly important to her identity and B) held her back from receiving proper changes(like her W) she needed due to all the invisible power it gave her.

it also muddied the decision making around Karma. Karma is left wondering if she should heal with her RQ or stay low to do damage. And enemies are left with the only real option of dealing with her would be to insta-gib her.

AutoreactiveCD41 votes

What invisible power did it give? I always thought it was straight forward guy gets a shield and anyone around him gets damaged. I thought that it was her most iconic mantra'd ability too

Thryale2 votes

inner flame was her passive. her passive gave her up to X ap (depending on level) * her %missing hp. So at 100% hp, she got nothing, at 75% hp she got 25% of the max ap her passive could provide, and at 10% hp she got 90% of the possible ap.

while it was a decent thematic, it did wonky things for her kit and her and enemies' decision making while preventing her from getting any buffs(ha, like she needed em) or an improved W(which she did need)

AutoreactiveCD41 votes

Oh I thought you meant only the shield, ya that passive was awesome. I loved that champ...Im sad now.

Hawnda1 votes

Whaaaat. Inner Flame was a huge part of her identity as a "clutch" mage. It's as invisible as Olaf's innate but I don't see anyone complaining there. Besides, lots of champions in league require you to know what they do so I doubt it'll be an issue.

Thryale2 votes

I wasn't saying invisible power was innately bad. I was saying it was what was holding her back from being balanceable and receiving the improvements she needed to really stand out as a mid lane mage.

Abyssphere1 votes

{quoted}

Whaaaat. Inner Flame was a huge part of her identity as a "clutch" mage. It's as invisible as Olaf's innate but I don't see anyone complaining there. Besides, lots of champions in league require you to know what they do so I doubt it'll be an issue.

Nobody complains about Olaf's innate because everything about him is a mess, so there's no point pointing it out. As someone who thinks Old Karma was very unfairly shafted and they should re-rework her to bring her closer to what she once was, her passive shouldn't come back. It was messy.

OverpoweredSoap1 votes

{quoted}

Nobody complains about Olaf's innate because everything about him is a mess, so there's no point pointing it out. As someone who thinks Old Karma was very unfairly shafted and they should re-rework her to bring her closer to what she once was, her passive shouldn't come back. It was messy.

It was also bugged.

It's a pretty cool passive, I honestly couldn't see her with a different one, but if it absolutely had to be done, it would allow her to have better numbers.

Earl Eulrich3 votes

yea, absolutly would love to see Karma´s kit come back - one of the most unique and fun Champs there have been so far.

Drive My Soul3 votes

They removed everything great about her...

-Shield bomb -AoE PERCENTAGE BASED Heal -Nearly permanent speed boost beam that could be applied to the entire ally team -Slow that could be applied to the entire enemy team with beam -And an AMAZING PASSIVE (she gained AP from missing HP)

Her kit was SO unique and powerful. She was my main for good reason.

Also, her old voice was 100x better than her current one.

FindingBemo2 votes

Lol that first picture is one of Kitana from Mortal Kombat.

Vistha Kai3 votes

Thank you, Sherlock.

AutoreactiveCD44 votes

And there are blades on that fan. There may be a thematic reason why they would put deadly weapons on a normally harmless object.

Can I be Watson?

Zense2 votes

He was just mentioning it, no need to be cocky.

Auryiel2 votes

''Bring back Old Karma''

inserts 2 pictures of girls with fans and downright slutty attires

wat

Forbidden Siren8 votes

"Bring back old Karma as a new champion"

insert 2 pictures of girls as an idea of a new champion if they could bring back the fans as OP isn't good at creating his own artwork

ok.

Sid882 votes

Rammus

OverpoweredSoap2 votes

The thing about Old Karma's passive was that it was bugged.

And only got it's usefulness when she was missing 100% health.

Yeah.

I honestly want them to at least visually bring back old Karma, I kinda thought the whole lore/visual update wasn't really needed. Her kit needed some slight changes (changing W to what it is now might have been a good step.) but it was really really really fun to play.

I hate her new lore, though. It's really Mary Sue-ish imo.

Kylemnestra2 votes

You are not the first suggesting this ;)

I made a Thread on the old Forum about exactly this - but with a reworked Karma and self made Concepts etc.. I sadly can not find it because Riot removed the search bar and I am not able to find it via Google etc.. :(

Actually I am working on a "Re-post" of this reworked Karma with better and more Concepts and more... way more :) So you might see it in some time, a month or two maybe more but one day I will finish.

Never forget Old Karma <3

Fifilona2 votes

Please bring old Karma back. She was my number 1 favorite champion of all time!

Hupsis1 votes

Closest thing to old Karma that could be released is a new champion that has fans as weapons. The kit would most definately be something we haven't seen before.

Fans as weapon could refer that the champion uses wind type magic or maybe illusion or mind control based magic. Without restraining themselves to recreate old Karma Riot could do so much more by developing a unique kit around fans based on one of those magic types.

FakeGravity1 votes

i think the low heath hit harder is more beserker like, see trynda and olaf karma should be more like fiora riposte you hit me i hit you back

i do found the duality of the old karma interesting tho making skills do completely different things intead of buffing what they do without making another shape switch champion like nidalee or elise

a damage skill that heals maybe a push skill that can pull?

Thryale2 votes

oh right, forgot about old karma's passive.

Meh, riot seemed to be really hung up on that part of her kit thinking that the players thought it was core to her. I never really cared for it myself tbh. Always thought it was holding her back from being a really great mid laner due to it's invisible power preventing an appropriate buff/rework to her W (trust me, if she had a strong/usefull W back then, she'd be so incredibly broken as a mid laner)

Blade of Justic1 votes

While we're at it, bring back old Sion as a new champ.

I miss my unstoppable chopping machine.

baetoevn1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blade of Justic,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=4t2QBIzM,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2015-07-28T20:19:12.836+0000)

While we're at it, bring back old Sion as a new champ.

I miss my unstoppable chopping machine.

Eh, lets leave this alone, I think the new sion is better and more "balanced". XD

Sassmast3r1 votes

I've always wanted to get the opportunity to try out old Karma, so it would mean a lot to me if they brought a slightly changed version of her past self as a new champion, honestly. I hope everyone upvotes this a thousand times and Riot actually pays attention to this and creates her :D.

Thryale3 votes

yeah, old karma wasn't bad. but the LoL community was a lot more hard nosed about what champs played what roles back in S2 and when riot released karma, they 'accidentally' mentioned her as a support. And thus the community clung to that as her identity despite her being utter garbage with no gold playing a 0 cs (no good gold gen items like today) ward bot. (there was no 3 wards per person cap back then, so supps were nothing but ward bots. I still remember a match in the LCS where Xpecial bought lvl 1 boots and nothing else but wards and other consumables)

So with most of the league community trying karma as a support and failing quite miserably, they instantly labeled her as garbage and most pretended she didn't exist. If you played her, they would rage or just give up all hope at winning, and if you dared to not only play her but also play her in any lane (like mid, where she excels in because of gold income) they would become so toxic. Not only would they insist on playing mid just so you wouldn't (I literally had ppl try to force me out of mid by going duo mid) they would even queue dodge making actually playing her such a chore that most all but the most hard core karma fans just gave up trying.

Sassmast3r2 votes

It's really sad that it was a CHORE to try and use a champion you enjoyed. I can't imagine what it would be like if I couldn't use Nami because people would actually get mad at me. That would piss me off to no extent and would actually turn me into a troll most likely. How unfortunate :C. But she sounded really fun! I would love to get the opportunity to have used her W; it seemed really unique to her kit and had a hidden power to it.

Fluppets1 votes

If (new) karma is about Yin and Yang then it doesnt make sense her sister is the Yin to her Yang. Just nitpicking here.

I feel like that first picture is very remeniscent of Akali.

Can you explain to me what (old) Karma is all about to someone who isnt familiar with old or new Karma?

I have the exact same idea about Cassiopeia though, the two playstyles and fantasies people have with her are not compatible/balanceable in the same champion.

OverpoweredSoap3 votes

{quoted}

If (new) karma is about Yin and Yang then it doesnt make sense her sister is the Yin to her Yang. Just nitpicking here.

I feel like that first picture is very remeniscent of Akali.

Can you explain to me what (old) Karma is all about to someone who isnt familiar with old or new Karma?

I have the exact same idea about Cassiopeia though, the two playstyles and fantasies people have with her are not compatible/balanceable in the same champion.

Old Karma was about baiting your opponents and then going back into their faces with R>E to R>Q.

She dealt a good amount of damage (depending on what items she had) while sustaining herself back up, while also giving herself one of the best shields in the game.

She had trouble not dying though if someone just straight up bursted you . (LeBlanc, Talon)

She was really a champion that played off of reaction time and clutch saving herself or her teammates, and she also had a really good kit for assisting melee champions.

She was extremely item dependent though, so she couldn't be played as support very well because back then the role spent all it's gold on wards.

Current ("new") Karma is moreso about constantly kiting and keep people away from her and then finishing them off with Mantra>Q.

imo it's like this:

Old Karma: More close quarters fighting and baiting due to constant sustain, shield and damage together. Loves to help out her melee teammates out.

Current Karma: Likes to keep people at a distance, excels at self kiting, can help others kite, moreso helpful to ranged champions.

It's kinda funny though because the rework really didn't fix what was wrong with Karma, which was being too dependent on Mantra to do anything, and she's still kind of like that, especially when her passive is basically for her ult.

Catastrop1 votes

I really only miss the fans to be honest.

dramatic banana1 votes

HAHA!! No. 2op4leg

Healurownbum1 votes

I really would not mind losing the old passive and the heal being less if its spread over several targets. And i get that shield bombs were a pain if instant so them being on a timer or slightly smaller so they are dodgeable for the enemy could be a thing.

I'd give alot to just have her back tho she was the one champion i played the most and loved to play not only cause of her skills but cause of the way she walked her lore and presence.

I did how ever learn a tough lesson with her being removed. Never ever get attached to anything or anyone on league.

Ionian StarChild1 votes

What bothers me is that they removed her fans saying it wouldn't fit her (only to apologize saying they realized too late the fans would've still made sense with the new visual) current theme not to mention she wasn't using it when her mantle and dragon are doing the exact same thing they used as an excuse for removing the fans. I don't see any reason why she has to carry that stupid thing on her back when she doesn't even use the dragons in an attack at all. As of now, Karma, though visually stunning, looks lackluster (my opinion) because unlike every other champion in league, she doesn't have a weapon that people would identify her with. That's just one of the reasons why she's often overlooked.

I think Riot forever butches Karma because they don't really know what to do with her. I say she needs another rework, and this time consider both iterations of the champion. I would love for Heavenly Wave and Soul Shield to make their return, with Soulflare possibly replacing that bond of hers. It was the one ability everybody wanted off of her when the rework was first announced. That, and bring back her fans! It was what made the champion iconic. That, and her dress and sophisticated demeanor.

nukular power1 votes

Never forgive

Never forget

Really though, some excellent points in this thread. I rocked the house with True Karma as she was, but I think she would fit into todays game better for the masses, maybe?

Know its a necro, but I'll never let this one die.

nukular power1 votes

never forget

never forgive

Sininu1 votes

I miss the old karma, I don't think the "new" karma rework has anything to do with the old karma besides her spells mirrors the old karma's in very little ways. The old karma was a nice support who I loved playing, the new karma is a damage dealer like lux and morgana. I'll agree with some in the comments, her w was really the only thing that was a bit weird about her kit, but I liked her way more back then, mained her even, now I barely even touch her, she just doesn't feel at all like karma, or the karma I used to play, loved even.

but I'll agree with some other guys, if they do bring her old kit back, don't make her outfit slutty, I liked her dress, one of the only 2 champions to actually have a long dress (morgana being the other) part of her charm.

More from Concepts & Creations

A completely serious, totally legit question for Riot.
Concepts & Creations183 comments
2,280
votes
[Champion Concept] DhaMa, The Force of Balance
Concepts & Creations931 comments
1,424
votes
Elderwood Kindred
Concepts & Creations176 comments
1,062
votes
Bring Urgot's Nipple Back!
Concepts & Creations94 comments
985
votes
Petition To Have An Old Lady Champion
Concepts & Creations481 comments
947
votes
When Tahm Kench eats Lulu, he should say that it tasted purple!
Concepts & Creations109 comments
826
votes

More by Forbidden Siren

@Riot: Winter Wonder Karma skin feels like a 975 skin instead of a 1350 skin
Story, Art, & Sound96 comments
96
votes
The new Royal Guard Fiora skin is awful now
Concepts & Creations36 comments
93
votes
@Riot: Noxus Poppy's Texture Update look horrible
Concepts & Creations70 comments
73
votes
So, there's no way to listen to Lissandra's story after winning an ARAM match?
Gameplay15 comments
67
votes
Can we do something about Warden Karma's hair?
Concepts & Creations58 comments
54
votes
Hey Riot... thank you for ping muting...
Gameplay9 comments
42
votes