Boards›Story, Art, & Sound

@Riot: Winter Wonder Karma skin feels like a 975 skin instead of a 1350 skin

Forbidden Siren··96 votes·24,755 views

I know we're all hyped about the Elementalist Lux but I, for one, am terribly excited for Winter Wonder Karma. Since I don't have a PBE account, I have to resort to watching random gameplay videos on Youtube until it comes out but after watching a few, I've noticed some things that I'm unsure if it justify the 1350 RP price tag and I hope someone from the skin department can provide a few words to justify its 1350 RP price tag.

  • Recall Inconsistencies: I noticed Karma's face disappeared right before her body turns blue. The moment she looks up and about to do the "Yoga Tree" pose, her face become... faceless. Unsure if this was intended but it's quite noticeable and felt incomplete.

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-wF3pk7ZarGg/WDQXXN3XQ-I/AAAAAAAAY0w/kVWwtcBfIscRxrHDIql1UC7gasLeKGalwCLcB/s1600/karmarecall.gif

  • The Tether of W/RW: When she tether someone, the line that connects to her opponent is just a recolored version of her default particles. Instead of deep purple, it's bright blue. That's about it. Any chance you guys can do more with it?

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-XzsCFe4Hq6Y/WDQn-TIiVbI/AAAAAAAAY2o/S8I0UPp9m-kuUCIq6TxZsRbV5PU1BxrKgCLcB/s1600/karmaw.jpg (Note: I'm aware the snare in the photo is bugged with her default green particles, just talking about the tether)

  • Shields: The shield is barely noticeable. It would be nice if the snowflake design is brighter. It's also a bit too similar to Order of the Lotus shield but instead of orange with lotus design, it's blue with snowflakes design. At least Lotus was bright and noticeable.

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-sOaKSnwOr-4/WDQn-IMK1pI/AAAAAAAAY2Y/sUSp7LLNSsgCt26yQKHvjIMma1xhCqF9QCLcB/s1600/karmae.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BxHvCIICMAAxfa5.jpg

I personally feel it's a 975 RP skin and the only reason I can see why you want to price it at 1350 RP is the new recall animation, her Q/RQ particles and the snow sound effects, but honestly, I don't think that's much to justify it when comparing it to her Lotus skin. Don't get me wrong, it's a GORGEOUS skin but I hope someone at Riot can take the time to explain to us why it's priced this much or perhaps let us know if you guys are looking into doing more with the skin/particles like you did with Bewitched Morgana.

96 Comments

Winterkill16 votes

I agree. It's a very pretty skin and I will be getting it regardless. The problem is that this skin is not worthy of a 1350 mark. It has the potential to become one if Riot decides to work on it a little more, but I feel like not much is going to be changed about it. Things I would like to see changed:

  1. A lighter color purple that isn't so vibrant. If Riot dilutes some of the color from the current model, I think that would help with bringing it more in line with the other ones. I mean I would love to see a white or blue color on her, but the purple is very pretty. The purple just needs to be less harsh. I did a mockup of what I am talking about below.

http://imgur.com/a/qIXyt

  1. W and W+R is bland. Riot could have done a lot better with it and it seems a little lackluster for a 1350 RP skin. The ability itself is already bland looking . . . . this is an opportunity to make it amazing. If they add like a lot fo snowflakes around it . . . . that would be cool. Then we get to the point that . . . . . what is so special about W+R then? it looks exactly the same.

  2. The shield is hardly noticeable. It is bland too. Riot should make it a little brighter and maybe outline the snowflakes in white. That would make it really stand out.

  3. IDK why she turns this random blue color after her recall. It's kind of like . . .. . what is happening to Karma?

I hope Riot does work on it a little . . . . and I don't feel like the changes are that drastic . . . . but as of right now Winter Wonder Karma doesn't fit in with the other ones, the visual effects for her abilities are very lackluster, and there are a lot of questionable design choices. There are things in this skin that need to be toned down a little bit, like the color of her jacket . . . . . Other than that this skin needs to be amped up in the graphics department abilities wise.

LycopolisKing2 votes

Love the mockup, the pale pastel would work great on her coat, as a straight color change is probably out of the question by now. But a desaturation would really help it fit Karma's more humble theme.

Forbidden Siren3 votes

I remember Ace of Spades Ezreal used to have dark brown hair during the PBE phase and then they decided to change the color to golden blonde towards the end of it (along with his shoulder pads). I'm sure they can change the colors of Karma's winter outfit if they wanted to.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CEQ3rXoWYAAgbi8.jpg

MisterShameless1 votes

Or how they changed the Pink Taric skin because of large demand of requests to extend his V cut.

Karbuncle2 votes

That was more because his splash art had the low V and his model didn't.

But that still isn't enough for Karma because despite people pointing it out they still didn't change OotL skin (Her shoulder armor is on the wrong side to this day but Riot still didn't change it because all the Karma main's voices put together is now where near as heard as Redditors.

Warden Karma3 votes

{quoted}

  1. W and W+R is bland.

Maybe: W: Snow whirling around the tether (like the dots around old W) RW: Maybe a frosty Leash with falling Snow/cold?

  1. The shield is hardly noticeable. It is bland too. Riot should make it a little brighter and maybe outline the snowflakes in white. That would make it really stand out.

I were hoping for the Shield "snowing" inside when I first saw Winter Wonder Karma (like a snowglobe).

  1. IDK why she turns this random blue color after her recall. It's kind of like . . .. . what is happening to Karma?

I think it should express that Karma turns into a snow figure.

Also how about some Snow around Karma for her Passive? Couldnt see anything for her Passive, but its barely noticeable anyway.

Forbidden Siren2 votes

Even if they won't do anything to the particles, hopefully they'll reduce the price to 975 like they did with Bewitched Morgana. They even went back and worked on the particles for that skin a bit but it wasn't enough to justify the original cost of 1350. Still, I'm hoping a Rioter from the skin department like KateyKhaos can discuss it with their team to see what more they can do to make it worth 1350.

Winterkill6 votes

I think they will get a lot of flack if they do that. Karma mains are already VERY upset with them in regards to how they treated Karma and her rework. The rework was during a time when Riot couldn't do a lot with her, but that still doesn't make it right. Especially since Riot has 3 years to work on the problems with Karma and they really aren't. Karma really only suffers from a rushed visual update that is bland. This is Riot's opportunity to give Karma a skin that has completed visuals, personality, and more. A lot Karma mains have been bombarding the boards for the past couple years . . . . for a good quality Karma skin that is 1350. Riot will have to deal with a lot of drama if they decide to leave the skin the way it is and lower the price. It will be a slap in the face and proof that Riot really doesn't like to work on anything involving Karma. Karma mains are already angry at them for taking away her fans, dress, shield bomb, making her a bland champion with no personality, a rushed visual update, no proper running animations, and etc. If Riot is going to do anything on Karma at this point, they need to go all out because they haven't been the past 3 years with her. Players are getting frustrated and losing faith in Riot. We know they care about Karma a lot . . . . but Riot hasn't been showing us it the past 3 years.

Ravenhale2 votes

The direction they went with this skin... I just don't think they can make it into a 1350. Even if they clean up the recall and brighten up some of the effects, I don't think that will ever bring it to 1350 status. Riot would merely be polishing it up to be on par with her Order of the Lotus (which I adore and use frequently). It has a lot to do with picking an icy theme to run on her, and Karma doesn't have a whole lot of extra things to justify a 1350 tag. This isn't a Lulu with a Pix or an Orianna with her Ball. It's just Karma. It would be like trying to say Snowstorm Sivir should be a 1350 skin. I don't think this theme could ever warrant a 1350 on Karma.

Well... short of giving her a new dance emote. Yea, that would definitely be worth it.

Winterkill2 votes

Yeah. It seems like it is going to get the price tag we think it is going to get. Unless Riot has other plans for the skin, it will definitely not be a 1350 RP skin. Karma mains will be VERY upset. Hopefully, if anything, it will be an eye opener for Riot to actually work on her theme, visual update, and other problems.

RiotRiot LoveStrut8 votes

Hiya, ya'll!

Sorry to chime in so late on this. We really should've engaged more with you, but we were certainly checking out the feedback. Unfortunately with the timeline (and how hectic things get around the holidays both in terms of personal lives and work--not that this is an excuse for not taking more time to talk to you all), there isn't much we can do in terms of changing the actual skin without introducing serious risks to not only this skin but also to everything else in the patch. All we can do is bug fixes right now. We managed to barely squeeze in some last minute updates to her tether (and mantra'd tether) as well as her shield at least! Hopefully that can make this skin feel even a tiny bit better for you all.

Star PlatinumELO10 votes

There's the Karma players getting shafted again

Voidac3 votes

A lot of 1350 skins should be 975, honestly. There isn't a defined barrier between these skins. Sometimes it's animations, other times it's particles, then there are some 975 skins that don't even change the particles. You also have to understand that Order of the Lotus Karma came out before Riot REALLY started pushing towards money-grabbing.

Less quality, higher cost, Papa Jo-... Riot Games.

FlashnFuse2 votes

This is a fairly reasonable response given how many down votes it has.

Tuplamela2 votes

I feel like her skin is much like Bewitching Morgana. You have some new SFX's on spells, some new visuals on spells and a new recall. I do love Bewtiching Moragana btw, one of my favorite skins at the moment. Thing is, Bewitching Morgana was not 1350 RP skin (and you justly adjusted the price to 975). I really feel like Winter Wonder Karma should belong to the same price category.

So I'll put my money where my mouth is and get the skin... when it becomes discounted, or if I get it on discount from one of the seasonal personal stores.

Forbidden Siren4 votes

After responding to another poster, I was wondering if you can answer this question. How come you were able to look into Bewitched Morgana and Lunar Wraith Morgana during their respective PBE cycle? Both were originally priced at 1350 but due to feedback, you guys went back and try to rework some of their problems like their in-game models (Lunar) and particles (Bewitched). But then decided to reduce the price because it wasn't enough to justify it even though both have brand new models, new particles (some were recolored), new SFX and new recall animations.

Yet, you couldn't do the same with Winter Wonder Karma with her particles or in-game model except some few bug fix. It seems odd, to be honest.

Solidair32 votes

So does this mean you'll be working on an upgrade the following patch? Or are you just saying "there's not time now, so oops :)"?

Winterkill7 votes

Thank you for your response and thank you for making the last minute changes to her mantra tether and shield. I cannot wait to see the shield. With the holiday everything can always get a little tricky. We don't know what goes on at the Riot offices so there may be things we do not get to see.

You have to put yourselves in the mindset of the players that got excited. This is Karma's first 1350 RP skin and the community was expecting great things. We have been asking for months and a few years for you to give us a good quality skin for Karma, since no department at Riot can be bothered to work on anything involving Karma. With all the things that happened with Karma since her rework and Riot completely ignoring all of her problems, this is yet another example of Riot not hitting the mark with Karma. We did our job and provided you with enough feedback and now we are left with another half worked on thing on Karma. At this point, the Karma community should expect every department in Riot games to give us half worked on content that involves Karma. It happened when Riot reworked Karma almost 4 years ago, when Riot continued ignoring Karma after the failed rework and refused to communicate, ignoring Karma mains when we got all excited for a 1350 RP skin and getting the short end of the stick again.

This is just another tally to add to what is not going to be worked on Karma.

Tally 1: Fixing the identity and problems Riot created with Karma's rework. Tally 2: Riot continuing to ignore Karma's problems for almost 4 years, not communicating with Karma mains, and refusing to accept elements of rework Karma are terrible. Tally 3: A 1350 RP skin priced at this mark, that doesn't meet the standards of other 1350 RP skins. I mean Riot can do it with Ekko and Jinx, but when it comes to Karma . . . . it will never happen.

I will say, I don't think Riot did this on purpose. I do not think Riot did this maliciously. This is a habit Riot is giving to Karma players now. Riot works on something for Karma and we get excited, the content is bland in comparison to other things Riot has created and we give our feedback, and Riot ignores the problems and then sweeps all of Karma's problems under an invisible VGU rug that will never happen. This is just definitive proof that Riot doesn't care about Karma. I can hope for the best and be optimistic that Riot will do something more to her kit, identity problems, and now a promised 1350 RP skin, but I am not going to hold my breath. No department at Riot games cares about Karma. Riot cares about Ekko, Jinx, and Ryze apparently. Riot has no problem going all out on content that involves any of them. No one can say the same thing about Karma.

/disappointed Karma main.

Have a happy holiday though.

Jeddy0175 votes

If it's too late to put the work in to improve the skin besides bug fixes, you guys should just drop the price to 975.

Clôude1 votes

And yet you left the price 1350. It's not worth 1350. It's barely worth 975. This seems way too intentional what with 1) Karma hasn't had a new skin in ages so people will buy it anyways. 2) It's a legacy skin so people will buy it now before it's gone for an entire year. 3) It's a legacy skin so we can't even just wait for the early sale. Nice meme Riot.

ARequestOfDeath4 votes

Karma mains. They are never happy like some rights group.

Karbuncle16 votes

Shut up

ARequestOfDeath2 votes

seriously, you are so unhappy with your main because they made her fair and not so cheesy.(like srsly the low health r-q was just so cheesy)

Karbuncle9 votes

Shut up

ARequestOfDeath1 votes

What's the matter? You cannot give a good argument aside from shut up. You seem like you are a part of a rights group. I honestly wanted a good debate.

Karbuncle7 votes

Shut up

Gapybo2 votes

I agree the particles feel unfinished and there is barely any change to them besides color. They are basically on the same level as Order of lotus skin. I am personally also not a fan of her recall. It feels choppy and uncomfortable and ends up in the same pose like all of her recalls do, with hands together and leg up. Boring. Oh and the blue thing at the end of recall looks more like a glitch than whatever they were going for.

The sound effects are the only thing that stand out, too bad they don't really match the skills. Her W sounds great and impactful, too bad it's only an unfinished recolor of the classic skill.

Overall just feels like another half assed Karma skin that I personally don't deem worthy of 1350RP. Hopefully at least the splash art is amazing.

TheHappyReaperz1 votes

This is a PBE skin guys. Likely it'll go through some changes before hitting live.

Karbuncle2 votes

Obviously the problem is the other 2 skins are completed,and we havent gotten a response in a week.

Forbidden Siren4 votes

There's nothing wrong with expressing concerns though. The fear right now is that once it goes through, that's it. It won't be looked at again unless Karma gets a full rework of some sort.

That said, it's kind of strange they've been quiet regarding Karma's winter skin as I'm not the first who made threads about it.

Lùmen2 votes

You do realize the skin IS incomplete? [zombie-brand-facepalm]

Forbidden Siren10 votes

The whole point of this thread is to express concerns and opinions of the skin we're seeing so far. As of this moment, they haven't made any changes or comment on the skin compared to previous skins that used to appear on PBE.

Lùmen1 votes

By this logic, you're saying the snare's effects will stay regular green as well. You need to learn the power of patience.

Forbidden Siren5 votes

I am being patient but also providing feedback. Notice on the PBE thread made by an official Rioter of the skin, "We always love hearing your feedback and feelings!" I'm doing just that, providing my feedback and feelings of the skin on this board since I don't have a PBE account.

http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/general-pbe-feedback/QOydEIsM-pbe-bugs-feedback-thread-winter-wonder-karma

Death and Doom1 votes

[deleted]

Sukishoo26 votes

Worldbreakers were 750s...

AbyssionKnight14 votes

[{quoted}](name=Death and Doom,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=3TOmRNxn,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-11-29T06:44:58.006+0000)

Maybe Order of the lotus is a better skin ( i dont, personally) but this skin definitely deserves 1350 rp, and not 975.

You realise Order of the Lotus is 975, right? So if it's justifiable to claim a 975 is better than a 1350, that puts some serious doubt into whether or not that 1350 is priced correctly.

Forbidden Siren3 votes

Agreed. Lotus is 975 that has yellow/orange particles with flowers effects while Winter is 1350 (currently) has blue/white particles with snow effects. Both also share a different recall animation from their base but the only difference I can see from the two are the Winter skin having new snow sound effects, which isn't much to justify the price, honestly.

And then I look at someone like Arcade Ahri or any of the Star Guardian skins who has brand new... everything, it makes me wonder why Winter Karma is getting the weird end of the deal.

IGotScuttleCrabs7 votes

Karma ALWAYS get the weird end of the deal. Reworks>Shafted Unique Abilities>Shafted Fans>Shafted Skin Price>Shafted

MisterShameless3 votes

I agree, I've started this before myself.

{quoted}

Karma seems to always have the short end of the stick when it comes to animations so I wont be surprised if they still haven't completed 50% of the skin yet. Looking at her default skin animations, we all know she is missing a few things, so no need to get into that. Another thing to point out is that her Warden Skin on her pre-release video also had a few issues such has her mantra caused her armor's color texture to switch back to the default texture while still having the armor shape and a few bugs that cause her Q to be invisible when you R+Q til it hits something, and there was this other bug on her Warden skin that I can't seem to remember that also caused some animation issues toward monsters.

Its depressing at this point considering its been 4 years of the same treatment.

PaladinNO5 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R22CgShfxIw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eibAHjgSK0 ######Skip to 0:40 for the second part.

Its depressing at this point considering its been 4 years of the same treatment.

And thus the truth was spoken.

Winterkill4 votes

I disagree with you. If you look at the recent 1350 RP skins that were released, I think it was the Star Guardians, you will see that they all received animations and visual far better than Winter Wonder Karma. I have faith in Riot to add a few more textures and brighten the colors on her abilities . . . . . . but I do not think another 975 RP skin is going to make Karma mains very happy.

Ïnsidious5 votes

Disagree, star guardian poppy being the main example. Its not so much lack of effort on th part of riot, but karma really isnt suited for skins, insofar as that there isnt much flexibility in her FX to add things in

Winterkill3 votes

true. it seems like it is a hit or miss. :( what a shame.

Karbuncle1 votes

There's no way they're going to change her outfit colors outright cause of the winter Log in Animation,it shows her and I doubt they'd make changes to it

SO I was thinking her blue particles would match but only if they changes her outfit but since they aren't I would be happy with

http://cdn3.twinfinite.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/karma2.jpg

Her Q color becoming the color to all her other abilities,Karma already is the only Winter Wonder Skin that isn't blue and white so making her outfit different colors was definitely intended I just wished they felt the same for her particles.

Winterkill1 votes

They might lower the brightness of it. Riot hasn't even released her splash art for Winter Wonder Karma. I wonder if they purposely held off on releasing it because they wanted to get feedback on their decisions. It's not out of the realm of possibilities.

Karbuncle3 votes

My honest thinking is that Karma's skin was started on WAYYY later than the other 2 skins.

No splash art No particle change on W snare Her back animation is clearly incomplete but no one seems to bring that up,like it's obvious "Blue box" bug looking. Not to mention there's a gigantic lack of creativity in her ability changes her W is JUST recolored,and her shield is taking the same cue from lotus to have 4 symbols rotate except with snowflakes.

The other 2 skins have absolutely nothing missing from them,actual models made for their ability changes ,Presents,Trees,Penguins.

I feel the 3rd skin was up in the air as who it was going to be given to and they decided on Karma because she's been doing decent well competitively.

Winterkill3 votes

Maybe. We will never know. I am hoping they do make it better, but there is always that nagging feeling in the back of my head telling me otherwise.

Sexy Jack Rabbit1 votes

Karma mains are the whiniest mains I ever seen, although it's all in reason. Seeing this champion getting nothing but shafted year after year has become somewhat of a meme. This skin could be great, I'd like to see Riot allow that.

Winterkill5 votes

Yeah. Make a Riot employee in charge of a champion rework that knows nothing about Karma. Have this employee remove her fans, theme, lore, dress, shield bomb, kit, and other things . . . . . and give us a champion with a rushed and incomplete visual update, bland personality, a kit that makes no sense, a champion with no direction, a kit that is probably overpowered for the sake of Riot saying they worked on her, and much more. To top it all off Riot has almost four years now to rectify their mistakes, but the only thing they can do is overbuff the damage on her abilities.

Yes. Karma mains are whiney. Riot has an excuse for every single reason they refuse to fix her art and kit problems. Karma suffers more from an art problem than kit in my opinion. If you look at how many times Ekko, Zed, Soraka, Ryze and other champions have been worked on . . . . and then you look at Karma . . . there is no comparison. She doesn't need a full VGU. Karma doesn't need her entire kit reworked. Karma doesn't necessarily need a completely new model . . . . she just needs some character to go with it and her abilities amped up. Because Riot only does 3 to 4 VGU a year and they have this idea that all champions need to be classified as a VGU, Karma will be waiting another 4 to 5 years. Riot thinks she is in a fantastic place because they buffed her numbers and Karma is being played competitively. The problem is if you really look at the champion and kit, you will see a champion that is bland, has no direction, her lore is bad, an incomplete visual update and animations, and a kit that really isn't that healthy. Is Karma a tank that can heal herself? Is Karma a shield bot where the player is only pressing one button to be useful in a teamfight? Is Karma this weird champion that is an enchanter, battlemage or tank? What is Karma exactly?

Karma is a champion that had every single character element removed. Karma is a champion with no direction and is, quite frankly, bottlenecked as a support . . . . . when that really wasn't her intended role. To justify their rework on her, Riot overbuffed her numbers and turned her into this champion that can be practically played anywhere . . . . which is a good and bad thing.

Like Shen, Azir, Kalista, and Morde mains, we are waiting for a bunch of Developers to get through the large number of VGU they need to get through, while only doing 3 to 4 a year . . . . to get to champions that they are ignoring. During this time Ekko, Zed, Soraka and Ryze 7 times will be worked on. I mean they updated the visual effects for other champions a few patches ago. Until Riot stops ignoring her problems and the problems of all the other champions that are waiting on minor work that probably shouldn't be classified as a full VGU, Karma will go largely ignored the next 4 plus years.

Unlike Riot, we like to communicate about Karma and not sweep her under the VGU rug. If Riot is not going to communicate and work on Karma, the whiny Karma mains will have to do their job for them. If Ekko can be worked on in a class update and receive more updates than Karma and Morde, over the span of his release . . . when Karma and Morde have been sitting on problems longer than him . . . . . there is a problem. If Ryze is being worked on 7 times and failed reworked 6 times, over champions like Morde and Karma that probably have it worse than him if you really think about it, there is a problem. If work on champions like Vel and Brand are being prioritized over champions like Morde and Karma, when that work really didn't accomplish anything . . . . . there is a problem.

This probably is not the place say this, but I did it anyways. I mean we are whiny Karma mains after all. It's totally not justified. :D

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