@IronStylus, I think you're missing WHY people want to keep the GD format.

Shinjusuke·Feb 17, 2014·10 votes·519 views

And I'd explain it all, but I already put it in the forum where everyone has an equal ability to be viewed, instead of where it only would survive if the mass population liked it and was a "sheeple" opinion. :(

Joking aside, this forum will be just as toxic. You're not going to avoid the toxic people, except now on this forum they're going to be angry not just about what they're talking about, but angry because they're going to feel unheard. It's going to make it worse.

And I know there's been a couple times on here where you've said otherwise, but man, you DID instigate the toxicity on the Caitlyn VU thread, I don't know why you're so adamant otherwise. The dismissiveness was pretty high. Like "lol f u guys get on my beta" high. You're obviously allowed to say whatever you want of course, I just wish the "IT WAS THE COMMUNITY, I HAD NOTHING TO DO IT, TOXIC COMMUNITY IS TOXIC" mentality would maybe be a liiiiiiittle less apparent.

I really don't mean anything as a personal attack here, and my being on this format is a testament of my support, I'm just saying, you're ignoring people's valid points. Which, go figure, is exactly WHY people don't want this format. Because they'll get MORE ignored. Just something to think about...

19 Comments

Blunts4BrekfastFeb 17, 20145 votes

btw, moving us here wont make us less toxic. i can be toxic as fuck on this forum. you dont know me.

@ riot, stop trying to make me browse 3 forums for information. fucking pick one. how hard is that

MasterofSFLFeb 18, 20142 votes

They are not trying to make you less Toxic, they are trying to let Non-toxic players stand out from you.

Sir ArmaMalumFeb 17, 20143 votes

This has been stated in about 3 threads so far I think, almost verbatum. I do agree with you the Beta won't stop the toxicity of GD from transferring over during the inevitable transition.

Although I would like to point out to everyone there is a RECENT ordering for thread comments and threads themselves. Imho that is pretty much exactly the old forum style of ordering and everyone seems to be missing that because everyone just assumes the Beta is shit. It's bright, it's unpolished, and a bit buggy sure, but anytime someone argues that an opinion will be buried because of popular opinion I find it a bit hilarious that no one has realized that there is a button for that........

MackleDogeFeb 17, 20145 votes

The problem with that is that it requires people to actually use the recent ordering style. Can you guarantee that everyone in the community and Rioteers especially are going to do that? Because I'm willing to bet that they won't, either from preference or because they make the erroneous assumption that "upvoted" is the same thing as "good" and "downvoted" is the same thing as "bad".

Sir ArmaMalumFeb 17, 20142 votes

I do agree it's a problem, and I actually posted for the [Idea] of having Recent be the set default for a day or two just to make people aware that it's an option. Nothing will change preference but the knowledge of knowing there is an option will severely undercut arguments like this and I feel it's one of the most popular Beta Bashing topics.

MackleDogeFeb 17, 20143 votes

I feel that stereotyping complaints and concerns about this forum as "Beta Bashing" is a problem in and off itself actually. Why is it that people assume disliking this format is something only GD users do? Why does having critiques or recommendations about this have to be given such a negative connotation? I don't use GD myself, I only follow the Dev Tracker, despite the fact that I like that format more than this format. I frequently comment on posts in this forum because I feel like my input is more likely to be heard and assist those who are posting, but I also feel that that is only a temporary situation. Dismissing the concerns about this format and the way in which it is going to be impacted by going live and drawing in the more toxic or less reasonable portions of GD isn't only insulting to those that want to improve this format but it's also a bad policy as far as the longevity and health of this format are concerned.

Sir ArmaMalumFeb 17, 20142 votes

Okay, yes I agree with you there, "Beta bashing" was harsh and I had no intent to include constructive but negative feedback in that. I respect people's opinion of anything when they are thought out and they gave something a chance, but anytime there's a "bleed-over" post that brings a bunch of GD users over and they complain about the Beta simply because they're jumping on the bandwagon really gets to me. Not saying that OP here is doing that, in fact this post is one of the best imo.

MackleDogeFeb 17, 20143 votes

Well that's oddly funny, because I've seen quite a bit of user's coming over to this format never having used before just to flame the people in GD or bandwagon onto threads "hating" on GD. I think we can both agree that behavior like that goes both ways, especially with forums and how obviously circle jerky they can be.

My issue with all this is, we are ignoring the fact that the threads that were pulled over into this format from GD only got the traction they did because of a Rioteer specifically asking for the conversation to happen over here. That to me highlights a pretty significant issue with the beta as it stands now and it gets on my nerves when Stylus goes out of his way to say "look how successful this is" while ignoring what appears to me the obvious root of the success (the fact that there is a guaranteed Rioteer, not the new format).

My other main issue is the whole "optimism" thing that Stylus and some people have going on with this new format. You take that thread and say "look at how the upvote system worked" but I say "look at the GD thread and how the toxicity got upvoted an think about how that will transfer into this format". Are we ignoring that problem or something? What gets upvoted isn't always what should get upvoted, and while I can concur with hoping that won't happen, I think it's extremely foolish to not accept the fact that it could. And if it does happen, who's to say that it won't continue happening until this is essentially GD 2.0 with the same issues, same toxicity, and just a different format. I think that concern needs to be legitimately addressed and I'd like to see a plan of action or some ideas as to what Riot is going to do if that sort of situation arises.

Sir ArmaMalumFeb 17, 20141 votes

I had no idea about people bashing GD, guess I just assumed innocence in the Beta community. That was very ignorant of me.

And I completely agree this format so far will do nothing to prevent the current toxicity of GD transferring as far as I can tell. Honestly the upvoting debate I really don't have a strong opinion either way, I'm more on the "watch and see what happens" end.

While I do agree that the bluntness of IS was unnecessary and the resulting threads really throw the Beta out of whack, I do think there needs to be something done about increasing the test size of the beta for better or for worse though. I know it sounds weird, but I feel we need a larger toxic presence to directly present the issue to the Beta team and give them a problem to tinker with within the Beta itself. But that's my own personal opinion.

MackleDogeFeb 17, 20141 votes

It's all good man, I admire the idea of seeing the best in people or a situation, I just personally happen to be a realist, and I'd like to see a solid plan before we end up needing an emergency plan.

I don't mind upvote/downvote as long as it functions appropriately and it doesn't get abused. If that happens, then I severely dislike it, not only because it encourages bad forum etiquette and it's just plain frustrating, but also because it can hurt the quality of the forum and the community interaction.

That's actually pretty interesting to consider. Not certain I like the whole "light the house on fire to test the fire extinguisher" feel of it, but it might end up being better then seeing everything go down in flames and this format ending up screwed over and then everyone is in a bad spot.

ShinjusukeFeb 17, 20143 votes

The difference is that when something is buried it's because there's a TON of opinions, whereas in a reddit-ish format it's buried just because it doesn't agree with what the often-idiotic majority of people are saying (Not in every case of course, but often enough).

I do LIKE the new format for the league forums, but only because it's actually being developed and cared about right now.

The original format has been mostly untouched for.. well like ever. This one is more modern. I just think reddit-style ordering of comments forces a "follow the crowd or be unheard" style.

However, despite all that, what I was getting at is not so much "new format as bad" as "Stylus's dismissive and almost rude attitude toward any accountability for a derailed thread and strong-arming people over here is bad and will only make people hate it much, MUCH more".

Sir ArmaMalumFeb 17, 20143 votes

Honestly I think there's very little any one person can do to make the average GD fan hate the Beta even more. Personally, I do feel IS got a bit upset, and yes that's unprofessional but I actually respect him more for that simply because he's not there in a professional stance. He's there on his own free time. If you replaced his name with another GD user would everyone be this upset? Probably not. yet that's exactly what he is when he's visiting GD on his spare time, another GD user.

Also, he wasn't strong-arming anyone or "holding a thread hostage" at all. In all honesty I thought GD was trying to hold him hostage. He's the reason they're there voicing opinions, so if he wants to take opinions somewhere else that is still open to everyone involved and is in no way barring anyone then why not let him? Sure he's saying he's not going to GD anymore, but everyone was essentially responding "No, you're staying here, you are not allowed to leave." I would get pretty pissed too if I was being told where I can and cannot post, and IS never said you couldn't post in GD just that he wouldn't be looking himself. What in god's name is he denying anyone with that? His attention. Is everyone in GD 5 years old or something?? Is IS's attention something like a rite of passage for GD manhood?

Imho, if moving to this Beta stops someone from voicing an opinion, idea or feedback then they must not have really liked the idea anyway. As for having a LOT of opinions, that's freaking exactly what happens in GD, I rarely posted there or anywhere in a popular topic simply because there were 100+ pages of comments in the first day. Here you can collapse read convos and also visually connect conversation instead of skipping 5 pages hoping to find an @blank response. Yes I'm bias, but I honestly don't see it for GD, at all.

Sir ArmaMalumFeb 17, 20141 votes

After a brief breather, I do want to also say thank you for stating your opinion in a constructive and civil manner, I apologize if I came off a bit harsh.

MackleDogeFeb 17, 20141 votes

Btw, just for the record, this thread is a perfect example of a valid and well-mannered thread getting downvoted so people can't join the discussion, even though there is not toxicity and there are plenty of valid and constructive points going on in this thread.

MasterofSFLFeb 18, 20142 votes

There are two things I'm going to address here:

Toxic Behavior will always be an underlining problem.
Toxic Behavior doesn't mean a change isn't needed.

GD is one of the worst forum environment I've ever seen, mainly due to the lack of constant moderation and the sheer volume of people who go through it. Players are mostly unwilling to interact positively with eachother or Rioters and this has been a growing problem since Day 1.

That said, the main problem with the old forums is how much of a voice these same players have over the more mellow and even-minded ones. I have always divided forum users into three Groups: Rage filled, Curious and Looking for Discussion. IN a perfect world, the Looking for Discussion group would have a stable environment in order to entertain arguments and discussion while the Curious had something to read and the Rage filled individuals were kicked.

This obviously is not the case.

The forums move so fast, that anyone who isn't trolling or looking to post spiteful remarks, is almost doomed to having anything of a semblance of Discussion. The voice of Angry players is exceptional loud within the current forum setup and disallows good discussion to prevail.

Why? Because not only do attempts at Good Discussion fail because of the volume of posts, but also because following posts is difficult as well as those same threads are easily derailed.

By streamlining it the way these new forums do, we limit that problem. Players interested in your Voice and opinions won't have to constantly refresh or bookmark a page. Rioter's can follow posts they feel will lead to Good Discussion and the voice of the rest of the forum will finally have some volume to it. Conversely, those who do nothing but rage and rag on everyone, can be silently ignored.

CerbearusFeb 18, 20141 votes

"Equal opportunity to be viewed" Just change the sorting system from "Best" to "Recent". Not that hard.

Z StatisticFeb 18, 20141 votes

Please don't blame the victim. And he's said why his tone was a bit short due to circumstances. There is very little incentive to use corums of any sort as a dev because every little thing will be torn apart and misinterpereted like "aren't you thankful?!" And if there ian't anything weong in it, people willlook for and find something and then peoclaim that as the real intent.

perrohunterFeb 19, 20141 votes

Where is IronStylus response? I thought he used this more. Riven

perrohunterFeb 19, 20141 votes

I think OP has a valid point, people resist change, the usual is to slowly introduce them to the change however if you start forcing them to change they will put resistance.