Boards›Player Behavior

"Off-meta isn't inting"

The Ecdysiast··2 votes·839 views

In case you didn't know:

If you pick the weakest champion for a role they're intended to play, it's off-meta and not against the rules. (Ex. Nidalee jungle)

If you pick a champion that is not intended or balanced for the role you've been assigned, it's trolling (punished as intentional feeding). (Ex. Ornn mid)

Something like jungle Ekko does not fall into the latter category because Riot's balance team has recognized their approval of it, and it has a reasonable success rate.

The issue isn't that off-meta is being punished, it's that people trolling don't know what off-meta means.

These are the facts. This is how Riot rules regarding such cases. Your downvote doesn't change that.

It's similar to their stance on hate speech reports, where you can't prove or disprove that there was any actual hate--so the only evidence they can base the punishment on is the presence of the word.

You can't say you weren't inting after the fact if you did poorly as a troll pick. Making an effort to win starts in champion select, not later. If all they have to go on is the fact you went AP Gnar mid and fed, they have no choice but to conclude that it was intentional feeding.

29 Comments

Chermorg14 votes

No, picking a champion for a role they aren’t “intended” is not trolling and is not punished as intentionally feeding unless they actually intentionally feed. There are no assigned roles to champions (how do you think we got MF support, soraka jungle, etc).

Dokueki Kenshin1 votes

This. While I definitely won’t take it into ranked until I get well above a 50% winrate, I play off-meta quite frequently, and I definitely don’t troll. I nearly climbed to Gold last season playing Taric Top.

What I WILL say is that people who play off meta need to have a strategy/explanation for their choice. I don’t take Ashe in the top lane just because; I have a rune setup, build sets, and general strategies against various type man of lane opponents.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

{quoted}

No, picking a champion for a role they aren’t “intended” is not trolling and is not punished as intentionally feeding unless they actually intentionally feed. There are no assigned roles to champions (how do you think we got MF support, soraka jungle, etc).

It's a darn shame even a boards advisor is incorrect on the matter. The people punished for it are not punished for actually intentionally feeding, as you claim.

As such, the logical conclusion is that their pick itself was to blame for the punishment.

If and only if something is proven to work by the highest tier of players can it be considered no longer to be trolling. In that regard, though, even "successes" like the now 41% winrate MF support is still trolling. Doesn't matter that one pro team made it work in three games 2 years ago.

Chermorg8 votes

Nope. That's wrong. There is no requirement to pick only things the highest tier of players have proven to work.

There is no such thing as it being considered trolling only because of a pick. Trolling is a gameplay offense - not based on who you picked.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

{quoted}

Nope. That's wrong. There is no requirement to pick only things the highest tier of players have proven to work.

There is no such thing as it being considered trolling only because of a pick. Trolling is a gameplay offense - not based on who you picked.

And as I said in the post, they cannot take your word on the matter if you have no proof but to say you weren't inting with a clearly poor pick. Making an effort to win begins in champion select, no later.

Chermorg1 votes

It is impossible to "throw" a game in champion select as there is literally no way to prove that a team composition is non-viable.

The second you start enforcing team composition, you enforce it too much. If someone wants to go Ashe support, but the team "needs" a tank, that's their right. Who decides what the team "needs" anyway? Riot? Players? A "team captain"? Nobody gets to boss others around and tell them that they "must" play a certain champ/role.

MalrothDragonia2 votes

you understand that your argument is based on subjectivity? The game stagnates if people don't try to innovate.

The lane/roles a champion is 'assigned' are recommendations, not hard rules.

As long as you are legitimately trying it's not trolling. Going 0/10/x can just mean you're having a bad game, or you're not very good at the thing you're playing yet.

I've gone 0/6/0 in first 20 min as Illaoi top lane, which is 'meta' and a champ I play frequently. Sometimes you have a bad game. Stop trying to restrict how people enjoy this game, there are over a hundred champions, it's the height of hubris to assume you know every possible 'viable' combination of champions that will win you the game.

xSightlessx1 votes

I see this now and i remember being told i was an idiot back in season three that champs didnt really have roles. Hell even the lanes dont have roles. still doesnt mean you should do it too much.

NocturnalSheild7 votes

Wut? Ive played literally every champion in every spot and never gotten even a slap on the wrist.

Riot doesnt enforce locations.

redniwediS5 votes

Lane positions are part of the meta, albeit a part that hasn't really changed for the majority of League's history. It is not trolling to play a champion in a non-standard position, so long as you are legitimately trying.

The largest problem comes in when these non-standard champions are played with a non-standard playstyle for their lane. Playstyle needs to be something you discuss with your team before hand.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

{quoted}

Lane positions are part of the meta, albeit a part that hasn't really changed for the majority of League's history. It is not trolling to play a champion in a non-standard position, so long as you are legitimately trying.

The largest problem comes in when these non-standard champions are played with a non-standard playstyle for their lane. Playstyle needs to be something you discuss with your team before hand.

"Legitimately trying" must start in champion select. The defense, "but I wasn't inting," when you go 0/10 as Ornn mid is completely moot. The only solid evidence they have to base the punishment on is the score and the pick. To try to excuse your playing after the fact means nothing.

Riot has a similar stance on this as for other punishments, such as supposed hate speech. Saying that you were in a party of 5 with friends and the enemies who false reported you couldn't even see your chat because it wasn't /all isn't gonna cut it either.

redniwediS1 votes

Intentionally feeding requires intent. People are allowed to be idiots, and if you don't like it you can go play some other game.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

{quoted}

Intentionally feeding requires intent. People are allowed to be idiots, and if you don't like it you can go play some other game.

You cannot retroactively say you weren't intending to feed when you began the game with the intent to pick something that isn't designed to work.

I'm sorry, but Riot's stance on the matter is to go only by the objective proof they have. If you fed and picked Singed Support, the conclusion is that you were intentionally feeding from your pick. If you call a friend the n-word and an enemy happens to get you on a hate speech report despite it not being in all chat, you still did in fact use hate speech--- even if to a reasonable person it's clear hate was not the intent.

redniwediS1 votes

Conclusions drawn from single games are inconclusive at best, and speculation at worse. Riot understands that sample size is an important part of a behavioral investigation, which is why it takes so long to punish people who actually intentionally feed.

If someone had a bad game, but enjoys off meta picks in any position, they are likely to have bad games. The meta is designed around consistency after all, and many fun champions in odd roles have incredible highs matched with horrible lows. Intentionally feeding has a different pattern over time than someone who plays high risk, high reward things that they simply find fun.

It's not a retroactive defense, it's a fact about the play pattern that Riot looks at before they make a move on this. One bad game of Ornn Mid will never be considered intentionally feeding. It can't be considered intentional, because the alternative is a price no one is actually willing to pay, not even you.

webstar19954 votes

blitz mid ap sion mid double mage bot karma jg (s6) braum top mord apc with renek sup panth sup

THESE ARE ALL OFF META THINGS THAT I HAVE GOTTEN S GRADE ON

currently lvl 6 at least on all these champs though so i know what im doing

The Ecdysiast1 votes

{quoted}

blitz mid ap sion mid double mage bot karma jg (s6) braum top mord apc with renek sup panth sup

THESE ARE ALL OFF META THINGS THAT I HAVE GOTTEN S GRADE ON

currently lvl 6 at least on all these champs though so i know what im doing

Go figure someone level 36 doesn't know how the grading system works. It's quite easy to get an S on a champion in norms no matter what role you pick them in, as it's unexpected and there's a high chance your opponent doesn't know the matchup or even their own champion. And if it's a support, that makes it even easier since it's being compared to their performance in the support role. If you get any kills at all and half-decent CS, you'll get an S.

webstar19954 votes

{quoted}

Go figure someone level 36 doesn't know how the grading system works. It's quite easy to get an S on a champion in norms no matter what role you pick them in, as it's unexpected and there's a high chance your opponent doesn't know the matchup or even their own champion. And if it's a support, that makes it even easier since it's being compared to their performance in the support role. If you get any kills at all and half-decent CS, you'll get an S.

This is not my main account buddy. You must not know how it works either XD because that is not really correct. Matchmaking is still relevant in norms. If one team has 2 plats, 2, golds and a bronze usually the other team's MMR will be about the same when it is all added up. (5 golds is about the same as 2 plats 2 golds and a bronze) So back to the S conversation. No it's not that easy to get an S with things like Blitz mid because you are definitely going to die a few times and not have good cs compared to your team. I know the math say position, champ, elo, cs, kills, assists, deaths, etc all goes into it but if you go 12-6-7 you are not going to get an S or S+.

GeminiRune1 votes

Only the level cap change has been in play since this past preseason. If you look at the player's list, there's Karma in which I would assume Season 6. To call out on knowledge of the grading system is narrow and shallow. Main account or not, it's been done and it worked for the player.

MaximumOgredrive2 votes

Playing Nidalee jungle is actually exactly meta because she is classed by the community as a jungler. Off-Meta would be taking that Nidalee jungle and having her hard lane as a top support.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

{quoted}

Playing Nidalee jungle is actually exactly meta because she is classed by the community as a jungler. Off-Meta would be taking that Nidalee jungle and having her hard lane as a top support.

No, you're just wrong. Meta is what is the most efficient. If you are dead-set on picking Nidalee, then yes, the meta would be for you to play jungle. If you are dead-set on playing jungle, then no, picking Nidalee is not meta.

Weiss Guertena2 votes

Ah, you must be one of those people who go 0/7 in lane and then spend 20 minutes crying in chat how, say, a 4/1 ADC Yasuo ruined your game. Good thing your reports on that matter hold no weight now, isn't it?

The Ecdysiast1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Weiss Guertena,realm=EUW,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=IVxJ6UVA,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-04-05T19:42:03.828+0000)

Ah, you must be one of those people who go 0/7 in lane and then spend 20 minutes crying in chat how, say, a 4/1 ADC Yasuo ruined your game. Good thing your reports on that matter hold no weight now, isn't it?

You'd have to be awfully stupid to really think that's the case. I'm simply defending the people who actually play off-meta picks from being confused with the idiots who troll.

<Removed by Moderation>
Totally Not Jinx2 votes

Hello there! I've edited out part of your comment as it did not fit in with the Universal Rules; please keep conversation respectful, even if you disagree. If you have questions, feel free to talk to us in the The Boards Moderation Discord or the Discuss the Boards sub-board.

Weiss Guertena1 votes

Ah, the good old "I have no viable arguments so I immediately resort to insults" tactic. Also, it's kinda ironic to call someone stupid when you lack basic reading comprehension, since your "facts" on how Riot regards such things are nowhere to be found in Summoner's Code. Anyway, off to prove you wrong:

{quoted}

If you pick a champion that is not intended or balanced for the role you&#039;ve been assigned, it&#039;s trolling (punished as intentional feeding). (Ex. Ornn mid)

Seems that someone here has a flawed definition of what's "off-meta", and that someone isn't me. Unless you're playing something beyond stupid like AP RIven and you're trying to win, then it isn't trolling. I've won a fair share of games with stuff like jungle drain tank Jinx (sadly no longer possible), ADC Ahri, full AP Varus, support Irelia and more. I've also lost quite a few of those if I was doing well due to some douche deciding to blame their failure on a well-doing "troll pick", going on flaming/griefing/throwing spree because "the game is already ruined". Go figure out who's the actual troll in this case; and a little hint if it's too hard to figure - read on rules in Summoner's Code. For real this time.

Colgate Gator2 votes

{quoted}

As usual, downvote it if you want.

Sounds good.

Tormentula1 votes

Off meta doesn't get punished unless you play it in a troll fashion/lack communication. If you're just playing it, its not punishable.

There are many off-meta people that climb to high elo and the only ones that ever got punished were the ones that did odd playstyles, like play support and not ever be bot lane without explaining why.

Also lol nidalee weakest jungle? you must've not looked at gragas, voli, and amumus stats..

TranscendVirtual1 votes

{quoted}

Off meta doesn't get punished unless you play it in a troll fashion/lack communication. If you're just playing it, its not punishable.

There are many off-meta people that climb to high elo and the only ones that ever got punished were the ones that did odd playstyles, like play support and not ever be bot lane without explaining why.

Also lol nidalee weakest jungle? you must've not looked at gragas, voli, and amumus stats..

Voli is really strong right now, idk what crack your smoking, and amumu isn't in that bad a place. Can i have some of your crack?

Tormentula1 votes

voli is strong lul http://www.op.gg/champion/volibear/statistics/jungle

Amumu isn't bad lul http://www.op.gg/champion/amumu/statistics/jungle

Shroom Merchant1 votes

I get reported for duo top and duo mid because we got meta CRYBABIES

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