@RiotTantram; Behavior support staff continued mishandling of my case (Update/request)

Dominick Destine··2 votes·1,467 views

I know it is in poor form to announce support interactions prior to them being completed... but I've been jerked around so badly by the support team that I 'feel' this warrants examination ... whether this will result in my forum ban or even in-game ban, I do not know, I suspect it will but at that point it's just finishing the process that they've already started. They've mistreated me to a degree I honestly didn't think was possible from Riot but it's been on-going and even weeks later I'm still completely in the dark.

Here we go; I was taken from zero punishment status to perma-ban for "Extreme toxicity in too many games". This was done manually so a Rioter actively looked at my case , which was at zero and concluded that my account deserved to be permanently banned.

Fair enough right? except I didn't get any email (at first) nor chat logs... nor even a reason for what happened in-client. There was complete and total radio silence. I put in a support ticket and made a thread, eventually the reason for the perma-ban was revealed as being toxicity and I was told in no uncertain terms that a Rioter specifically pulled the trigger on it but it was overturned anyway.

I will link to the two previous threads for further reading, please read these threads or at least skim them briefly as they are vital;

Thread 1; The initial ban, confusion, despair, resolution, relief.

Thread 2; The realization that my case was horribly mishandled and acquisition of my chat logs (at last). (PLEASE READ THE CHAT LOGS, I'm begging you)

I put in another support ticket wanting to know why I was treated so aggressively by Riot and here is what resulted; Dominick Destine 23 May I was recently permanently banned but after a support ticket and a seeming review of my case, my permanent ban was decreased down to 2 week suspension.

I was told that general toxicity was the cause of my ban (Insults, negative attitude, etc.) and I agree that entering the punishment tiers was not unreasonable, however I have a question about how League of Legends manages this type of system.

It is my understanding that there is a 4 tier punishment system; 10 game chat restriction 25 game chat restriction 14 day suspension Permanent ban

I was at tier 0 and jumped all the way into permanent ban prior to putting in a support ticket and being dropped to tier 3 (14 day suspension). My question is; Why was my case set to be so egregious so as to jump multiple punishment tiers? I was not given chat logs or any detailed explanation as to what I did that was so over-the-top so as to bypass the system put in place by Riot. I never use racial slurs, or homophobic language. I never intentionally feed or afk. I do talk trash but not to a degree that I would consider to be on a level to instantly perma-ban my account.

I want to know why I was singled out and punished so harshly. Going from zero to perma-ban, even if it was eventually reduced, is saved for the most EXTREME of toxic behaviors... which mine is not. I am toxic, I do talk trash, but to jump from zero to maximum seems like a horrible oversight.

Again since I was given no chat logs or even an explanation last time , I would like for some insight to be provided as to why I was treated so hamfistedly. Don't get me wrong I am EXTREMELY that happy my permanent suspension was reduced to two weeks but the severity of my punishment has not been explained. I want to know what I did so wrong that caused me to jump multiple punishment tiers so I can avoid doing it at all cost.

Please review my case and explain in detail what happened. Thank you.

Agent Spoopy May 24, 2016 17:51

Hello there Dominick Destine,

I am Agent Spoopy with the Player Behavior team. The permanent suspension that was previously placed was not one that was issued by our Instant Feedback system which goes through a tiered process, but was a manual suspension that was placed by a Rioter after an investigation of the account was done and an extreme amount of negative behavior was noticed.

You tend to display a really pessimistic attitude, often tell people you will be muting them, call them clowns or feeders, and point out people's mistakes in a way that makes your peers feel bad about themselves rather than allowing them to improve. (He has a point here, but none of that behavior would constitute fair grounds for executing a permanent ban from zero punishment tier, in my opinion and apparently, in Riot's opinion too since the permaban was overturned)

Below are examples of this behavior so you can reflect on them: [This is where chat logs were FINALLY provided, linked in the second thread]

Agent Spoopy Player Behavior & Game Support Candy Collector ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ

Dominick Destine May 24, 2016 19:48

That's fair enough, but my question is; Is that really warranting of a zero-to-permaban punishment? now again I insist, I understand and appreciate the fact that it was decreased to a two-week suspension, don't get me wrong.

But the above chat logs are clearly not toxic to the extreme degree necessary to instantly perma-ban someone zero punishment tier. My point is, you jumped the gun, severely. Why is this ? was I singled out or was there something in particular I said specifically? I am NOT denying that I am toxic. I am NOT denying that I deserved punishment. I most certainly did. The question is, was it really zero to perma-ban worthy? I unbelievably strongly disagree..... what went so horribly wrong?

I am aware this will "drop down" my ticket down to dead last, but I 'feel' I should explain what I am searching for. You see, I am worried that the permaban system has been abused to quite a degree. I enjoy playing this game but I am worried that, let's say 3 years down the line I am randomly perma-banned. That is not something that would be appreciated.

I believe this incident concerns all current players and must be addressed. I am not special, so I am no asking for special treatment, all I ask is for simple transparency. I want to know what went wrong? who made the call? why? and most importantly; Di d he truly and legitimately belive that I was worth of a permanence instead of going into the automated system like everyone else?

What I am searching for if ansers; I don't want my 2-week suspension removed. I don't want praise. I don't want recognizion. I just want to know the game I enjoy has not been taken over by hardcore ideologues that wil randomly permaban peopleon a whim. I want to know that very serious decisions like permanent bans are taken very seriously by Riot... and in my opinion, mine was not. Mine was overlord punished (to put it lightly).

(Forgive the massive typos, been awak efoor over 50 hours and I can barely see, it looks all blurry and hands are clumlsy, etc.)

Agent Spoopy May 25, 2016 10:57

Hey again,

The reason you were permanently suspended initially was because your negativity has been found in a multitude of games. While it may not have been at the most extreme level, it was impacting many, many players and something had to be done to prevent your behavior from further hurting the community.

I can assure you the banning system is never abused from our end. Permanent suspensions are only issued when we feel the situation is extreme enough for them to be necessary.

I hope this helps to clear things up for you.

Kind regards,

Agent Spoopy Player Behavior & Game Support Candy Collector ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ

Dominick Destine May 25, 2016 15:41

Very well , that's reasonable... but if my toxicity wasn't "at the most extreme level" (I would argue that my toxicity was between mid-to-low even) , shouldn't have that led to a chat ban LONG before it reached the level of instant perma-ban?

I mean, I have seen countless Riot posts that directly state "Instant perma-bans are reserved for absolute most extreme cases of toxic behavior" , as you yourself just admitted , mine was not.

I had an account perma-banned in early S2 (It was Ssraeshza but it's probably deleted now) and I was insanely toxic... many magnitudes more tan today, but I got warnings, punishments, suspensions and emails very clearly outlining that I would permabanned if my behavior persisted. I have not come anywhere near close that level toxicity and I was not even offered a single warning let alone a chat ban.

It came completely out of nowhere and goes contrary to Riot's protocol of reformation.Once again, why do other players get 4 chances and I got zero? (Again, I am grateful my account was reduced from perma to 2 weeks but why was it ever permabanned to begin with? your explanation makes no sense)

ALL OF THAT BEING SAID: I do appreciate that you are taking time to answer my questions. I understand you get many and it is difficult. So even though I consider you to have made a horrible mistake in this instance, I still think you guys do a great job.

Alright, let's end this; (Ok that was pretentious as fuck, I admit it, lol) I think you made a very big mistake but it is obvious to me that you do not care about your players. That's fine.

I have nothing ill to say about you, you are just doing your job and I have no reason to criticize you. But I want you to know one thing; I have been playing since Season1 , and I have always had great faith in the decisions that Riot makes.... even after I was permabanned in season 2 , my faith was not shaken even a bit because I knew I deserved it 100%.

This time, you have completely destroyed all of the faith I had in you. I guess this doesn't matter to you even in the slightest, but I want you to know that you lost a very loyal player. Oh I'll still play the game, but I am no longer loyal player you once had that would stick with you in worst and best times. You have betrayed me.

Have a good one Agent Spoopy.

** Agent Spoopy May 26, 2016 11:17**

Hey again,

To clarify the situation, your behavior was extreme in the fact that it was impacting a high amount of players. While your words may not have been at the extreme level (homophobic/racist/sexist comments), the impact you were having on our community was still extreme due to the amount of players that were having their game experiences hurt. I hope that makes sense.

As I mentioned earlier, we reserve permanent suspensions for extreme cases, and we felt that your situation was an extreme one based on the explanation I gave above.

I'm sad to hear you have lost faith in us, but ultimately that is your own opinion to have. I wish you the best of luck with your future gaming endeavors.

Agent Spoopy Player Behavior & Game Support Candy Collector ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ

Dominick Destine Wednesday at 22:22 "your behavior was extreme" No it was not. There is no way someone could look at those chat logs, regardless of what games of mine you pick even if not those three, and say "This behavior is extreme and warrants an instant perma-ban".

Whoever made the call was wrong to do so and there was no reason for my case to be jumped past from ZERO PUNISHMENT TIER to instant perma-ban. We are going in circles but the short of it is; I want to know exactly why I was singled out.

I've seen cases with SIGNIFICANTLY greater toxicity that get a chat restriction. For what reason was my punishment made so tremendously more severe? yet again, shouldn't I have hit chat restriction if my behavior was so bad? you have not explained at all.

My previous messages came from when I was very sleep deprived and slightly incoherent (I admit) but no longer. I am rested and appalled at how my case was handled... but if you are just going to give me the run around and insult me more, let me know, you have the power, not me. At this point I had already lost faith in Riot, they're just jerking me around. Ironically, proving that my faith was indeed misplaced to begin with. BUT THEN SOMETHING WORSE HAPPENED;

Broken Blade Yesterday at 10:00

Hello Dominick,

I'm Broken Blade and I will be assisting you because Agent Spoopy is away on vacation.

I understand your frustration towards this matter, but the reason we only show your own chat in the log is because we judge all behavior from players independently and we take action against any negative behavior that we find within a game. Ultimately, you are always responsible for your own behavior, and no matter what the situation, no one can force you to be negative as well. Going back and forth with other players that may have been causing you a negative experience only adds to the overall negativity within the match, and could of been avoided on your part.

At this point I was like "u wot m8?"

Since it is very likely that the next punishment on this account will most likely be a permanent suspension, I recommend just muting players you are having issues with and refrain from saying negative comments or arguing with them to avoid receiving reports/punishments in the future. As the saying goes, "Two wrongs don't make a right". Don't combat negativity with more negativity, it will only make the situation worse. Or if you find yourself becoming frustrated quite often, I would recommend taking a break from the game for a bit. This will allow you to clear your head and make you not as quick to lose your cool.

I would also suggest reporting players you are having issues with if you feel necessary after the game, but please refrain from asking for reports in game as this is considered a form of negativity as well. Reports help us prioritize what accounts to look into for further disciplinary action.

We won't be able to help you any further regarding this account, but if you have any other questions or concerns about anything else League related please let me know. If you do not, I will have to consider this matter resolved and close the ticket.

Broken Blade Riot Player Support Player Behavior and Game

Uhhh so yeah, this person didn't even bother reading the thread of responses DIRECTLY IN FRONT OF THEM. This person couldn't be bothered to even skim through and instead gave me the standard "copy paste "Don't be toxic"" reply. Like wow.... I honestly didn't it could get worse.

So because I know my days are numbered before I am silenced/removed, I would like for YOU , Riot Tantram, to tell me exactly what happened. Broken Blade completely botched the response but that's not what I am aiming at, I want to know why I was singled out. I want to know why I was sent from zero to perma-ban rather than going through the standard system's protocol. If my behavior was so toxic, I should have hit a chat restriction and NOT an instant permaban. Yes you are going to tell me "Alright yeah but you were toxic in so many games" WHICH SHOULD STILL PLACE ME WITHIN THE PUNISHMENT TIER SYSTEM. For what reason was I specifically singled out? it was NOT due to extreme toxicity, it was regular toxicity but apparently not toxic enough to be punished by the system, so why did Anonymous Rioter pull the trigger on a perma-ban if I wasn't even enough toxic enough to get a chat restriction in over three years?

Do not tell me that my behavior was "Extreme toxicity" or anything remotely resembling that because that's a lie. Was it a mistake? was an angry Rioter on a rampage? why was I not put through the system like EVERYBODY ELSE? why is the Riot support ticket team giving me the run around? (Especially Broken Blade)

"Please refrain from asking for reports in game" "Don't combat negativity with more negativity"

Like holy motherless goat, this person didn't even bother skimming my case........ in the past 2,000 matches on my account, you will never find me calling for reports except on legit afkers and those cases were incredibly rare, they'd have to go digging deep indeed to even find one time when I called for what would still be justified reports. This person didn't even bother skimming the chat logs (The bare minimum).

No, this person didn't even care. They couldn't be bothered to read the thread in front of them.... not even invest 5 minutes into a quick read as to what's going on. RiotTantram do you see what I mean? I am STILL in the dark after these weeks and I am asking for your help.

I asked for it before and you refused. I am asking again.

42 Comments

ModWuks8 votes

As both support agents mentioned, Player Behavior Specialists do in fact conduct account audits outside of the Instant Feedback system. This may occur when a player submits a ticket with evidence of negative behavior outside of matches or if they are reviewing logs for reports regarding champion select/post-game chat. Based on your behavior, the PB Specialist auditing your account thought a reasonable response for your consistent toxic behavior was to permanently suspend your account. Fortunately for you, however, Riot Tantram thought this action may have been too harsh (matter of opinion; I'm not going to comment on what punishment you should have received) and reduced the punishment.

With this being said, I'd be more than happy to address any specific/further questions that you have.

Dominick Destine2 votes

{quoted}

As both support agents mentioned, Player Behavior Specialists do in fact conduct account audits outside of the Instant Feedback system

I am aware of this and , at the risk of sounding rude, it was unnecessary for you to say so as I made note of it several times in the opening post.

Based on your behavior, the PB Specialist auditing your account thought a reasonable response for your consistent toxic behavior was to permanently suspend your account.

Correct.

My question is; How was it so "EXTREME" that it could be possibly deemed perma-ban worthy while not being punished within the tier system? and if it was truly that toxic, which I don't agree with at all by the way, why was it overturned on re-review?

Fortunately for you, however, Riot Tantram thought this action may have been too harsh (matter of opinion; I'm not going to comment on what punishment you should have received) and reduced the punishment.

It wasn't Riot Tantram that reduced the punishment or at least the support person that I talked to was not Riot Tantram.

It was some other Rioter.

With this being said, I'd be more than happy to address any specific/further questions that you have.

BUT YOU DIDN'T ANSWER THE ONE QUESTION I'VE ASKED LIKE 10 TIMES IN A ROW.

Why was I singled out? why was I punished outside of the system and unbelievably harshly so? Zero-to-permaban is reserved for the most extreme levels of toxicity of which, multiple RIOTERS THEMSELVES have specifically told me I am not a part of based on my case; this is strongly backed up by the fact that the perma-ban was overturned. So what the BLEEP happened here? this is a clear abuse case by a rogue Rioter, is it not?

I also want to know why I was kept in the dark for so long and so many Rioters refuse to even acknowledge my case.

ModWuks7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=FO9AAudp,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-06-04T23:02:33.887+0000)

BUT YOU DIDN'T ANSWER THE ONE QUESTION I'VE ASKED LIKE 10 TIMES IN A ROW.

Why was I singled out? why was I punished outside of the system and unbelievably harshly so? Zero-to-permaban is reserved for the most extreme levels of toxicity of which, multiple RIOTERS THEMSELVES have specifically told me I am not a part of based on my case; this is strongly backed up by the fact that the perma-ban was overturned. So what the BLEEP happened here?

Although Instant Feedback wasn't the system that triggered your suspension, the guidelines for suspensions still align.

Excessive negative behavior can result in a Two-Week or Permanent suspension at any time without having a chat restriction on the account.

https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/207489286

Extreme toxicity isn't the only behavior that results in a suspension.

Firu4 votes

He has posted this same thing on multiple threads, Wuks. He believes Riot personally singled him out when handing out the punishment. He is also upset a Rioter didn't personally respond to his thread yet. Further, from his first post to when he said the punishment was over turned was around 3-4 days. He believes that constitutes "being kept in the dark for so long".

All and all, I don't think there is anything anyone can say to make him stop unless it's to tell him exactly what he wants to hear.

DrCyanide2 votes

Honestly, I want to hear a response. Instant Permaban with no warning goes against Riot's started desire of having players reform from toxic behavior. You can't reform if you instantly get permabanned for behavior you have been doing for over a year.

As someone who has never been chat restricted, this case is the most likely to effect me. Am I toxic when I ask if our support is ever going to get a Sightstone then buy one myself when they say no or don't reply? Maybe, and apparently my first warning won't necessarily be a chat restriction or two week ban either.

Gargamel Bot2 votes

[deleted]

DrCyanide2 votes

I'm perfectly OK with Riot saying "this person was toxic, they slipped though the cracks, they get punished" and that punishment being a 2-week ban. That's perfectly acceptable and matches what they say they want to do.

That said, that isn't what happened. While the OP has the chance to change now, the original verdict was permaban.

I don't think players should have to beg the support team for their (genuinely) second chance. 0-to-Permaban should not be an option ever used by manual audits if their hope truly is to reform others.

dapositiveviking2 votes

yeah, actually if you ask your support in that tone then it is toxic.

Dominick Destine1 votes

{quoted}

He believes Riot personally singled him out when handing out the punishment.

A Rioter.

Not "Riot"... though given the complete radio silence, I could easily be compelled into believing that Riot pulled the trigger despite the overturning of the instant zero-to-permaban.

Dominick Destine1 votes

{quoted}

Extreme toxicity isn't the only behavior that results in a suspension.

Did.... did you not see the part where I was specifically told that "extreme levels of toxicity" was the cause? I mean... are you reading my posts? are you doing the Broken Blade thing where you just don't care ?

ModWuks6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=FO9AAudp,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2016-06-04T23:20:13.134+0000)

Did.... did you not see the part where I was specifically told that "extreme levels of toxicity" was the cause? I mean... are you reading my posts? are you doing the Broken Blade thing where you just don't care ?

I read the thread. No, it wasn't for "extreme levels of toxicity", in fact, they never even mentioned the phrase "extreme levels of toxicity", so I'm not sure why that's in quotes.

your behavior was extreme in the fact that it was impacting a high amount of players. While your words may not have been at the extreme level (homophobic/racist/sexist comments), the impact you were having on our community was still extreme due to the amount of players that were having their game experiences hurt. I hope that makes sense.

*bolded for emphasis

Dominick Destine2 votes

{quoted}

I read the thread. No, it wasn't for "extreme levels of toxicity", in fact, they never even mentioned the phrase "extreme levels of toxicity", so I'm not sure why that's in quotes.

Fair enough, "Extreme amounts".

Is that semantically satisfactory? my point is exactly the same.... Rioters themselves have stated that I am not toxic enough for a perma-ban and yet that is precisely what happened. There is specifically a tier system for people that are NOT toxic enough to warrant such a ban by virtue of a 4-step process.

In my case; This process was violated and instead, protocol was breached. That is massively unethical at best and gross abuse of power at worst. My question remains; Why was I singled out? your argument is still "toxicity", fair enough then why was I not placed in the system?

Your response was "Too much toxicity" , again, if it builds like a pressure valve chamber until you get punished, why was I not punished LONG before it ever even got close to perma-ban levels?

Sadistic Xayah1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=FO9AAudp,comment-id=000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2016-06-04T23:39:43.249+0000)

Fair enough, "Extreme amounts".

Is that semantically satisfactory? my point is exactly the same.... Rioters themselves have stated that I am not toxic enough for a perma-ban and yet that is precisely what happened. There is specifically a tier system for people that are NOT toxic enough to warrant such a ban by virtue of a 4-step process.

In my case; This process was violated and instead, protocol was breached. That is massively unethical at best and gross abuse of power at worst. My question remains; Why was I singled out? your argument is still "toxicity", fair enough then why was I not placed in the system?

Your response was "Too much toxicity" , again, if it builds like a pressure valve chamber until you get punished, why was I not punished LONG before it ever even got close to perma-ban levels?

So let me first start by saying sorry. It sucks that you were pushed right to the brink before being punished or given the chance to reform. Unfortunately the system itself doesn't solely depend on Riot, but on the community to take responsibility and report players that are behaving in a toxic manner, which is more than likely why it has taken so long for them to handle your case.

I wish you the best, hopefully after your two weeks you can find a place for yourself back in the community and are able to play without being rude to your team mates. It'd suck to have such a long standing veteran in the game get perma'd for having a poor attitude and not being able to let things go.

ModWuks5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=FO9AAudp,comment-id=000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2016-06-04T23:39:43.249+0000)

Your response was "Too much toxicity" , again, if it builds like a pressure valve chamber until you get punished, why was I not punished LONG before it ever even got close to perma-ban levels?

Again, this was a manual audit of your account, which occurs outside of Instant Feedback and as often as resources allow. You weren't singled out; manual audits occur on a regular basis.

And yes, I think semantics matter, as you called me out for not reading your post after I said that you were suspended for an excessive amount of negative behavior and for me to re-read your post.

Dominick Destine1 votes

{quoted}

Again, this was a manual audit of your account

Yes, we've been over this.

It was decided manually, my point yet again is that if it was that bad "Extreme amounts of toxicity" (as you want me to say) then why was it not caught for over three years by the automated system? it was aprox. 3 years ago that I last got punished... wasn't it? it was more than a year and a half ago at least.

And yes, I think semantics matter

Very well I will play your semantics.... however I submit that in this case the relevant factor my case was allegedly so severe so as to reach perma-ban status because "Of extreme amounts of toxicity" and yet never punished by the automated system which catches significantly less levels of toxicity?

Again, something's gotta give, either the system effed up or the Rioter effed up. Refer to the valve analogy; If the pressure was so high, then why didn't I get chat restrictions ? we're not talking intensity, we're talking amount which the system takes into consideration.

You are not answering the question.

ModWuks4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=FO9AAudp,comment-id=00000000000000010000000000010000,timestamp=2016-06-05T00:08:11.780+0000)

Yes, we've been over this.

It was decided manually, my point yet again is that if it was that bad "Extreme amounts of toxicity" (as you want me to say) then why was it not caught for over three years by the automated system? it was aprox. 3 years ago that I last got punished... wasn't it? it was more than a year and a half ago at least.

I can't provide context as to why Instant Feedback didn't apply punishments, other than that the chats that I've read were pretty passive aggressive towards individuals who performed poorly, with you calling them feeders and trolls.

Beyond this, I'll probably have to let a Rioter respond, as this is probably where my insight into the PB system is limited to. Sorry if I was unable to answer any of your questions.

Dominick Destine1 votes

{quoted}

I can't provide context as to why Instant Feedback didn't apply punishments

Then you're not helping because it might be that the system HORRIBLY failed (in my case).

other than that the chats that I've read were pretty passive aggressive towards individuals who performed poorly, with you calling them feeders and trolls.

Sure, I admit I am toxic... read any of the three threads available and I will readily admit to toxicity.... but is it to the level of "zero-to-permaban"? shouldn't I have gotten a chat restriction first or even a suspension? that's my entire point.

Why was I singled out? I should have been warned, chat restricted , suspended or something, going from zero-to-permaban should be reserved for the ultra toxic. NO, the argument that "You were toxic too long ("amount/length" unclear) is not valid.

I suppose this is opinion because I have no power and only Riot decides this but; Low level toxicity should never result in instant perma-ban.

Beyond this, I'll probably have to let a Rioter respond, as this is probably where my insight into the PB system is limited to. Sorry if I was unable to answer any of your questions.

You did adequately but failed to answer even the most rudimentary questions.

That's not your fault though... my entire point for the Nth time is; I should not have gone from zero-to-permaban (I will keep saying it like that because that's what it was). Regardless of whether you agree with my behavior or not, low level toxicity should come with a warning, a chat restriction, suspension even but instant permaban is ALLEGEDLY reserved for the most toxic which multiple Rioters already said I wasn't.

Point being; I was singled out. I was effed over. Why? either the system failed or the Rioter had it against me. I want to know what went wrong that my case could be so botched.

VernMcHanson1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=FO9AAudp,comment-id=0000000000000001000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2016-06-05T00:57:32.373+0000)

Then you're not helping because it might be that the system HORRIBLY failed (in my case).

Sure, I admit I am toxic... read any of the three threads available and I will readily admit to toxicity.... but is it to the level of "zero-to-permaban"? shouldn't I have gotten a chat restriction first or even a suspension? that's my entire point.

Why was I singled out? I should have been warned, chat restricted , suspended or something, going from zero-to-permaban should be reserved for the ultra toxic. NO, the argument that "You were toxic too long ("amount/length" unclear) is not valid.

I suppose this is opinion because I have no power and only Riot decides this but; Low level toxicity should never result in instant perma-ban.

You did adequately but failed to answer even the most rudimentary questions.

That's not your fault though... my entire point for the Nth time is; I should not have gone from zero-to-permaban (I will keep saying it like that because that's what it was). Regardless of whether you agree with my behavior or not, low level toxicity should come with a warning, a chat restriction, suspension even but instant permaban is ALLEGEDLY reserved for the most toxic which multiple Rioters already said I wasn't.

Point being; I was singled out. I was effed over. Why? either the system failed or the Rioter had it against me. I want to know what went wrong that my case could be so botched.

TFW RIOT bans you for calling people feeders and trolls. There used to be a time when non profanity laced criticism was acceptable in the game, but no longer. RIOT is run by a bunch of safe space Democrats. Hold the door boyz, we gotta protect the kiddies' feelings.

dapositiveviking1 votes

don't act like you're special

DrCyanide2 votes

Wouldn't anyone who regularly chats in game, plays a lot, and isn't hit by a tier 1 punishment be guilty of the same? The system tells them their behavior is within acceptable parameters by not giving them a punishment, and they continue to behave that way because they haven't been told otherwise. Riot can't expect players who were never told their behavior was out of line to change.

If Riot decided the behavior slipped through the cracks, then the correct response should be to fix the system if possible, give a tier 1-3 punishment depending on the severity. Instant permabans for this behavior goes directly against Riot's desire for the player to reform, as they have no opportunity to reform.

ModWuks4 votes

{quoted}

Wouldn't anyone who regularly chats in game, plays a lot, and isn't hit by a tier 1 punishment be guilty of the same? The system tells them their behavior is within acceptable parameters by not giving them a punishment, and they continue to behave that way because they haven't been told otherwise. Riot can't expect players who were never told their behavior was out of line to change.

If Riot decided the behavior slipped through the cracks, then the correct response should be to fix the system of possible, give a tier 1-3 punishment depending on the severity. Instant permabans for this behavior goes directly against Riot's desire for the player to reform, as they have no opportunity to reform.

Again, as I mentioned, I'm not going to comment on what punishment I think or don't think should've been applied. However, Instant Feedback is only limited to in-game chat, and it's also a constantly evolving system. If a player can effectively mask negative behavior and is negative consistently, is negative in champion select and/or the post-game lobby, etc, the system won't pick up on it and apply punishments. That's why a manual audit of the account yielded a punishment while the Instant Feedback system did not.

DrCyanide2 votes

I thought Riot says that pre- and post-game were also subject to the automated feedback system, just not reported in the logs. Am I just misremembering some statement about the system?

I'm mostly interested in the policy side of this (which I know isn't something you can shape or even really speak on, being only an arbiter). It feels wrong to permaban someone for toxic behavior without giving them any sort of warning first. I think I'm OK with those cases where the person gets a two week ban, contests it, and it gets escalated to permaban (starting to second guess that now). But it feels like the only way someone should ever be instantly permabanned for toxicity with no warning is if they mention something about how they're subverting the system either in a lobby, the game, or the boards.

ModWuks2 votes

{quoted}

I thought Riot says that pre- and post-game were also subject to the automated feedback system, just not reported in the logs. Am I just misremembering some statement about the system?

I'm mostly interested in the policy side of this (which I know isn't something you can shape or even really speak on, being only an arbiter). It feels wrong to permaban someone for toxic behavior without giving them any sort of warning first. I think I'm OK with those cases where the person gets a two week ban, contests it, and it gets escalated to permaban (starting to second guess that now). But it feels like the only way someone should ever be instantly permabanned for toxicity with no warning is if they mention something about how they're subverting the system either in a lobby, the game, or the boards.

Riot has access to the pre- and post-game logs; however, this isn't accounted for within the Instant Feedback system.

When a player’s reported, the instant feedback system collects all reports from the game and compares them with in-game data (statistics, chat, item builds, metrics from past games, etc.) to make a call on a whether or not to punish.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/player-behavior/reports-how-do-they-work

Regarding policy, just one example of how a player could be escalated to a permanent suspension outside of Instant Feedback is if a player, for instance, uses hate speech or makes threats in champion select or the post-game lobby. This sort of behavior is not tolerated within the community, and if a PB Specialist reviews the report, it's possible they'll make the call to permanently suspend the player.

DrCyanide1 votes

I realized as I was typing another reply that the hate speech and death threats are a clear cut enough case that yes, an instant permaban for them makes sense. It'd be foolish to take the option away from manual audit to deal with them accordingly.

Barring that though... I'm struggling to think of a situation where an instant permaban is acceptable for language.

Dominick Destine1 votes

{quoted}

I realized as I was typing another reply that the hate speech and death threats are a clear cut enough case that yes, an instant permaban for them makes sense. It'd be foolish to take the option away from manual audit to deal with them accordingly.

Thank you for siding with logic and reason instead of joining the witch-hunt.

That being said, I would like to say in my defense that even if they scower my past 2,000+ matches, they will find zero death threats or things like anti-semitism/rape threats (whatever) anything remotely resembling that. At most they'll find me putting people on ignore or (I admit) generally being annoying.

The chat logs that I linked will substantiate this... and those logs are arguably some of my worst behavior, 99% of the time I am less toxic than that.... but even those 1% wouldn't justify zero-to-permaban.

Barring that though... I'm struggling to think of a situation where an instant permaban is acceptable for language.

Thank you, so so much.

I was honestly very distraught that not even one person had been able to see the obvious failure that occurred here. I no longer feel like the guy from "They Live" / "Soylent Green".

DrCyanide1 votes

I think there are two groups that are arguing against you here.

  • The first is the one that has seen too many "I was permabanned for no reason/unjustly" threads. I can't blame people from not believing you.
  • The second is the "you got to the right punishment in the end, so what's the problem?"

I'm just looking at it as "the wrong punishment shouldn't have been issued in the first place," and wondering if Riot is doing anything internally to improve their manual audits.

Dominick Destine1 votes

{quoted}

I'm just looking at it as "the wrong punishment shouldn't have been issued in the first place," and wondering if Riot is doing anything internally to improve their manual audits.

That's where I'm at.

Why was I permabanned this way? something must have gone horribly wrong.

Dominick Destine2 votes

{quoted}

Wouldn't anyone who regularly chats in game, plays a lot, and isn't hit by a tier 1 punishment be guilty of the same? The system tells them their behavior is within acceptable parameters by not giving them a punishment, and they continue to behave that way because they haven't been told otherwise. Riot can't expect players who were never told their behavior was out of line to change.If Riot decided the behavior slipped through the cracks, then the correct response should be to fix the system of possible THIS. HOLY SHIT THIS. THANK YOU.

Finally someone that actually understands... it's not complicated, how is it that only this one guy has understood?

Gargamel Bot4 votes

[deleted]

Dominick Destine1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Gargamel Bot,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=FO9AAudp,comment-id=00000000000000010000000100010000,timestamp=2016-06-05T00:15:16.413+0000)

Of course you agree with the one person that might suggest you were punished unfairly.

Oh gee, could it be because I was punished not just unfairly but have had my case handled unbelievably poorly?

Nah that couldn't be it.

Edit: I'd also like to point out that his arguments are very reasonable ... and ironically, nearly identical to the arguments I made in the threads I linked especially pertaining to my original account.

I was banned in early S2 and my original contention was; Why did this ban come out of nowhere? was I hacked? was there a clerical error? I had ZERO warning.... whereas the first time I was banned so many years ago, I had many warnings, suspensions and emails straight up telling me I was about to get permabanned, it came as no surprise when I did.

I restarted and reformed.... this time , out of absolutely nowhere I was perma-banned... I honestly and sincerely did not know why. The client didn't tell me why, the email I eventually got didn't tell me why. I was confused and distraught.

If I had been suspended prior to this, I'd be like "Oh okay, I get that" but going from zero-to-permaban is supposed to be for the most extreme of the extreme edge cases which mine is not. TLDR; they botched the handling of my case, this is why it was overturned.

DrCyanide1 votes

You're using a black-and-white right-vs-wrong example as a comparison of a grayscale problem. A more accurate comparison would be instantly getting fired for not being focused enough on your work with no warning beforehand that you were out of line.

Everyone has done something that can be considered negative or toxic, Riot has acknowledged that. Some of it is clear cut toxic (homophobic, racial, death threats, etc.), but most of it isn't. Everyone will admit to being a little out of line at one point or another, but very few people think they're way out of line and just not getting punished for it.

We use the pre-permaban warnings to keep ourselves in check, and those warnings let us change our behavior. No punishment to two week ban is completely acceptable, as it matches Riot's stated policy of giving players a chance to reform. No punishment to permaban for toxicity, unless that toxicity falls into the above mentioned clear cut wrong, doesn't match Riot's stated policy.

Sadistic Xayah1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=FO9AAudp,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2016-06-04T23:20:13.134+0000)

Did.... did you not see the part where I was specifically told that "extreme levels of toxicity" was the cause? I mean... are you reading my posts? are you doing the Broken Blade thing where you just don't care ?

Just to help out Wuks a bit here....

While it may not have been at the most extreme level

This was directly from the text. It wasn't the extreme levels, but the sheer number of people impacted by your toxicity... I can't explain why they would deem that numbers alone would be the problem when you more than likely have had truly impacted at most 5-6% of the community, but it is their choice to make.

Don't argue it, accept it and leave it be. Sometimes it's best to pick and choose your battles, and I doubt if you continue to poke a sleeping bear as you are now that it will end well.

~ Turret

Dominick Destine1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Doki Doki,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=FO9AAudp,comment-id=00000000000000010001,timestamp=2016-06-04T23:39:39.915+0000)

if you continue to poke a sleeping bear as you are now that it will end well.

Oh I know that much, I am going to end up banned from the boards and possibly in-game for bringing thbese things up. I should just be silent and let them do what they want to me.

That is the best course of action , I know.

Firu6 votes

Riot has given you numerous explanations and responses. Yet, you keep asking them for another response even when the previous one was like the one before.

If your goal is to make Riot say they were wrong, they already said that and reduced your original punishment. So I don't know what the point is of your continued efforts other than they are motivated by some need for attention by your part.

These constant threads by you do not put Riot in a poor light. To me, they only make you look rather insufferable.

Dominick Destine1 votes

{quoted}

If your goal is to make Riot say they were wrong, they already said that and reduced your original punishment.

That much is obvious. The overturning of an instant-permaban already implies a mistake on their end.

So I don't know what the point is of your continued efforts other than they are motivated by some need for attention by your part.

I want to know why I was singled out. Haven't I made that clear? Was it a mistake on the system's part? did the Rioter personally have it out for me?

These constant threads by you do not put Riot in a poor light. To me, they only make you look rather insufferable.

I'm pretty annoying I can admit that... but being annoying does not make injustice against me acceptable.

Icy Hot Shoto4 votes

Kinda wish this guy would give up already. He's literally just spamming the PB&M every few days with one of these threads.

OP, you got perma-banned then got lucky they turned it into a, what, 2-week ban? Take your luck as it was, LUCK, and shut up already. [slayer-jinx-unamused]

Dominick Destine1 votes

{quoted}

OP, you got perma-banned then got lucky they turned it into a, what, 2-week ban? Take your luck as it was, LUCK, and shut up already.

Did you read the chat logs? did you read the thread? do you not understand how massively abusive this case has been?

All I ask is for an explanation.

MeilinII4 votes

Are you ever going to stop beating a dead horse. [slayer-jinx-unamused]

Dominick Destine1 votes

If you were permabanned with zero warning while only exhibiting mid to low levels of toxicity.... would you do the same?

Yes, but far less eloquently than I did.

Astôlfo2 votes

Except, gee, maybe he could just not be toxic and not get any sort of punishment?

Dominick Destine1 votes

{quoted}

Except, gee, maybe he could just not be toxic and not get any sort of punishment?

Except he would never even realize it.

The slightest of offenses could be considered toxicity , leading up to an instant perma-ban, that's literally what happened here.... sure, it was mild toxicity over a long period of time, but my point is you'd never even know it.

Astôlfo2 votes

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

Not this shit again.

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