It's cool how I can't play Clash.

Onotori·Apr 14, 2018·1 votes·3,241 views

Because I complained in chat and I've been penalized since September for it.

Man do I deserve it though. Complaining in chat? Fucking toxic asshole, right?

39 Comments

ChermorgApr 14, 20186 votes

Complaining in chat? Fucking toxic asshole, right?

Well, yeah, depending on what "complaining" consisted of, it can really make the game shit for other players on your team and/or the enemy team.

And if you haven't gone up in honor since September, that is indicative of you not improving your behavior. If you want to go up in honor, maybe don't have the passive aggressive attitude you have in the OP.

OnotoriApr 14, 20181 votes

At this point, I don't think it matters what you do -- even if you're the most pleasant person in the world, you're still "making the game shit" for someone, and you'll be punished for it.

But just imagine someone ranting about broken champs or Riot lies in chat. Not flaming, not hostile, not calling anyone bad, just complaining about bullshit in the game. So I put in a support ticket asking what rule I broke after I was punished, and they said that I didn't necessarily break any rule -- but being "negative" is treated just as harshly as flaming and toxicity.

So, that tells me that you're not supposed to actually use chat, since anything can be construed as negative.

ChermorgApr 14, 20186 votes

No, that's not how it works at all.

You will not be punished unless you are doing something that to an average person would detract from the game experience. For example, someone can report you for saying "gg" at the end of the game saying "they were being nice to the enemy and ruining my game" but that's outrageous and you'll never be punished for that.

But just imagine someone ranting about broken champs or Riot lies in chat. Not flaming, not hostile, not calling anyone bad, just complaining about bullshit in the game

Yes, constant complaining is negative and is a negative attitude and is punishable. Ranting is spam, takes up space, prevents your team from using chat for actual strategy, and causes the attitude of the game to actually go downhill.

That being said, saying once "stupid broken trynd" or similar will not get you punished. You won't be punished for things like this unless you consistently do it over the course of an entire game, or even multiple games.

but being "negative" is treated just as harshly as flaming and toxicity.

Yeah, because being negative causes the game experience to be ruined just as badly as flaming/toxicity does. If an average player doesn't enjoy the game, and you're directly causing that by doing something you know is negative, that's your fault.

OnotoriApr 14, 20181 votes

{quoted}

If an average player doesn't enjoy the game, and you're directly causing that by doing something you know is negative, that's your fault.

There is a fancy mute button there for a reason. And if complaining in chat is THAT detrimental to their experience, then they need to see a therapist for some OCD pills.

ChermorgApr 14, 201810 votes

The mute button is there so they don't have to deal with your negativity. It does not mean you get a free pass to be negative.

Case in point - policemen wear bulletproof vests so that if they get shot at they don't get hurt (as badly). That does not give you a free pass to just shoot at police officers, and if you do shoot one it's not a defense that "well they could've worn a bulletproof vest so it's not my fault they got hurt".

OnotoriApr 14, 20181 votes

That analogy isn't quite correct.

Imagine if paintball was so popular that people did it 24/7. Policemen loved to play along, and didn't mind getting a bit of paint on their uniforms. Some policemen, however, wore white uniforms, and if you ever got the slightest speck of paint on them, even on accident, they'd arrest you on the spot for improper conduct.

Now normal players are the policemen in regular uniforms, while the white-uniformed policemen are the obsessed assholes who report any time someone is even slightly negative.

Thing is, this is a highly competitive game, and it's normal for people to get frustrated. Most people understand that, and don't mind if people blow up a little. Then we have the people trained by society to take offense at literally everything and freak out. Honestly, I think we should put them in their own queue, and have normal players in a queue where chat rules are relaxed (within reason).

ChermorgApr 14, 20186 votes

But, the thing is, Riot is the policemen with regular uniforms. Riot doesn't punish just because getting reported. Riot only punishes if bad behavior actually occurs.

All a report does is trigger a review of the game. You can be reported by all 9 other players in every game you play but if you're doing nothing wrong you will not get punished - no matter how much you chat.

OnotoriApr 14, 20181 votes

No, Riot is the courthouse that just accepts the verdict of the white-uniformed police officers without question. No trial, no context, they were obviously just making a scene, and need to be locked up for a while.

If reporting were a manually reviewed thing, sure. But when a bot looks for certain triggers, looks at how many lines you type (and yes, typing a lot can get you banned, I've talked to support about that), and all that in a vacuum out of context... it's not a "fair" thing at all, it's just asinine -- but then I'm not surprised since it was born in southern California.

ChermorgApr 14, 20186 votes

I'm telling you that not how it works. The bot does not look for "trigger words" or numbers at all, it evaluates the chat on a whole.

You are making these claims the system is wrong, but your understanding of how it works is incorrect. You think you're a victim of these white coat policemen when that is literally impossible with how the system works.

You are refusing to accept that maybe, just maybe, the majority of the community would've found your ranting negative and not appropriate in game.

OnotoriApr 14, 20181 votes

So you think a chat scan bot can be intelligent enough to look at what you type and determine connotation, intent and all that? Man, and here I thought I was naive.

You are refusing to accept that maybe, just maybe, the majority of the community would've found your ranting negative and not appropriate in game.

See, I would believe that if I hadn't been acting literally exactly the same since the tail end of season 4 with not one punishment until the beginning of season 7, where I was punished like 7 times back to back (and this is with THOUSANDS of games per season, so I think it wasn't considered "toxic"). They upgraded the chat bot though, and now just typing more than the "average" amount of lines is a bannable offense.

ChermorgApr 14, 20185 votes

Have you seen just how advanced the technology of computers has gotten? Yes, there are noticable differences, but keep in mind these are mostly examples of computers learning to create human speech from scratch. When you have computers that are able to determine with 99+% accuracy what an image is of and computers that can easily determine what digit someone handwrote, but you don't think they can analyze chat holistically?

The intent of your chat does not matter, the effect does. The connotation matters, but yes, a bot can easily determine the difference between "fuck me that was a bad play" and "fuck you that was a bad play". It's not hard for a computer to do that.

Lastly, you are assuming your behavior is the same, but many times when a Riot employee comes here to explain a punishment they'll make it clear - players like you aren't behaving the same - you just have changed so slowly that you are unable to see it. Further, you think your punishment is incorrect, thus you are of course going to formulate memories such as "I've always been this way" to confirm that - it's confirmation bias at it's finest. Psychology is a lovely thing, and you should be open to the idea that maybe, just maybe, you have started acting poorly.

Typing "more than average" is not and never will be bannable. Being toxic will always be bannable, has always been bannable, and is bannable.

OnotoriApr 14, 20181 votes

So, Riot isn't going to spend millions (or even billions) developing a super advanced bot. It's goinna be some cheap thing that looks for phrases / words, and flags it. When it finds enough, or if it finds certain words, it gives you a punishment.

Here's a good example. One time I was telling my team that the enemy team is bad, so they should stop complaining and just try. Bot told me that "They're bad" was toxic. So, how would I think it works after that? Well, "Fuck" and "Bad" both get a flag. "Fuck you" gets extra flags, regardless of context.

And no, I can guarantee I'm acting exactly the same. Some bullshit champ one shots me out of nowhere or clicks me to death, I would say a line or three, maybe quote a lie from Riot, and leave it at that. Then when I get one shot out of nowhere again, another 1-2 lines. I actually die less now than I used to, so I've been typing even less -- and I make sure to use polite language, and I'm not even talking to anyone in my game. To call what I do toxic is silly. Might get a bit annoying, sure, but that's what the mute button is for.

And yes, go ahead and ask support. One time I was temp banned for the most tame chat log I've ever had. When I asked why, he said it's because I had over 60 lines of text. So yes, typing a lot will absolutely get you punished if you get reported -- they assume that everyone types at <20 WPM and wastes time to type.

Kei143Apr 14, 20185 votes

Well you can choose to trust some randos in game, or you can trust the people here on behavior boards whom have been following reds and knowing how the system works.

It's the Internet afterall, you can learn how to do eye surgery with a simple search.

ChermorgApr 14, 20186 votes

If you had looked at the links, literally one of them is to a college student who spends his free time on making neural networks using only the laptop computer he has.

It doesn't take millions/billions to code a neural network. It is extremely cheap and requires relatively low server power.

OnotoriApr 14, 20181 votes

They're relatively simple. To code a program that can learn how people talk, and figure out the intent and connotation of it all, would cost a lot of dev time and money.

ChermorgApr 14, 20184 votes

Not really. It's so simple to do even someone with barely understanding could make one in less than a day with public information on the internet such as... this or this or this or this or this... and there's hundreds more open source libraries and/or tutorials out there.

It is very quick and simple to code machine learning nowadays, and it makes much more sense to code an accurate machine learning software which by definition can figure out connotation (again, intent does not matter) than it does to code your "search for curse words" banbot that would have so many false bans they'd have to go undo.

TotalwanabeApr 14, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Not really. It's so simple to do even someone with barely understanding could make one in less than a day with public information on the internet such as... this or this or this or this or this... and there's hundreds more open source libraries and/or tutorials out there.

It is very quick and simple to code machine learning nowadays, and it makes much more sense to code an accurate machine learning software which by definition can figure out connotation (again, intent does not matter) than it does to code your "search for curse words" banbot that would have so many false bans they'd have to go undo.

chermorg i would suggest you drop the subject.

XidphelApr 14, 20181 votes

So, Riot isn't going to spend millions (or even billions) developing a super advanced bot.

They have that kind of money?

Umbral RegentApr 14, 20185 votes

Here's the thing, dude. The in-game chat is not a blog where you can ramble on and on and on about how you think Riot lies or how you hate specific Champions or whatever - sure, you're allowed to complain a little, but being an obsessively negative complaint machine is only going to ruin the morale of your team, and bring everyone down.

Here's a fun fact: Just yesterday, I played a match as Kai'Sa, got agitated due to somehow dying to turret even though I was outside of turret range, and said something along the lines of the following:

Okay, so Apparently Killer Instinct has a range short enough that I can't even go halfway through the middle of the lane with it But the tower has as much range as Jhin W Makes sense

No punishment. My team was A.O.K with my gripe, I was doing well enough, and I didn't press on it to some insane degree.

And I'm not even the most pleasant. I'm quiet most of the time, but sometimes I imagine I get read off as snappy. I haven't been punished once, in all of the three-or-four I've been playing.

So, that tells me that you're not supposed to actually use chat, since anything can be construed as negative.

Maybe you should figure out where the lines are before you start assuming "everything is negative". If you could get punished for so much as using the chat, then I can assure you, I would've been banned years ago.

3PowerApr 15, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Well, yeah, depending on what "complaining" consisted of, it can really make the game shit for other players on your team and/or the enemy team.

And if you haven't gone up in honor since September, that is indicative of you not improving your behavior. If you want to go up in honor, maybe don't have the passive aggressive attitude you have in the OP.

Actually, it's indicative that riot player behavior system is very poorly implemented. I've said nothing in chat for two weeks and I still don't even have first checkpoint on honor 1.

This system does nothing but stack punishments on punishments on punishments on people who freaking get it already.

And that's the thing, there comes a point when if someone gets pissed off at the neverending punishments, it becomes riot's fault.

EvilDustManApr 15, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Actually, it's indicative that riot player behavior system is very poorly implemented. I've said nothing in chat for two weeks and I still don't even have first checkpoint on honor 1.

This system does nothing but stack punishments on punishments on punishments on people who freaking get it already.

And that's the thing, there comes a point when if someone gets pissed off at the neverending punishments, it becomes riot's fault.

If you say nothing, then you aren't being positive and helpful

3PowerApr 15, 20181 votes

Gee, it's almost like we can't win.

EvilDustManApr 15, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Gee, it's almost like we can't win.

Can you not be positive and helpful?

3PowerApr 15, 20181 votes

People are not reported for not being positive and helpful. Why should I have to be just to undo a punishment? It's like throwing someone back in prison if they don't act like Mother Teresa when they get out.

EvilDustManApr 15, 20181 votes

{quoted}

People are not reported for not being positive and helpful. Why should I have to be just to undo a punishment? It's like throwing someone back in prison if they don't act like Mother Teresa when they get out.

Honor is more than "not being punished", it's about making the game a better place.

3PowerApr 15, 20181 votes

Actually, it's just someone pressing a button when you carried a game for them. That's all honor is.

EvilDustManApr 15, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Actually, it's just someone pressing a button when you carried a game for them. That's all honor is.

That is your opinion, and incorrect.

3PowerApr 15, 20181 votes

It's neither. It's what happens.

EvilDustManApr 15, 20182 votes

{quoted}

It's neither. It's what happens.

So those honors I get when I don't carry, what happened?

3PowerApr 16, 20181 votes

You didn't feed when everyone else did. Or maybe you were the only one not whining in chat. Or maybe you were one of the people who also wanted to ff while 2 people kept you trapped in a 0-20 game. Or maybe you were super tilted and someone honored you "tilt-proof" ironically. Maybe you ganked unlike every other jungle and it led to a memorable kill.

Regardless, it has nothing to do with being "honorable." It's a "out of these four baddies, you sucked the least" button.

EvilDustManApr 16, 20182 votes

{quoted}

You didn't feed when everyone else did. Or maybe you were the only one not whining in chat. Or maybe you were one of the people who also wanted to ff while 2 people kept you trapped in a 0-20 game. Or maybe you were super tilted and someone honored you "tilt-proof" ironically. Maybe you ganked unlike every other jungle and it led to a memorable kill.

Regardless, it has nothing to do with being "honorable." It's a "out of these four baddies, you sucked the least" button.

I am sorry you are so cynical, it's got to be a hard way to get through life.

3PowerApr 16, 20181 votes

Again, it's not cynicism, it's reality. I note that much like the guy right below us you're not defining how you honor people. Was I a little too on the nose?

EvilDustManApr 16, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Again, it's not cynicism, it's reality. I note that much like the guy right below us you're not defining how you honor people. Was I a little too on the nose?

If they are positive to me, try to help me out, team call without being a dick about it.

ChermorgApr 15, 20182 votes

You get honor by being honorable.

Not using chat is not being honorable, it's doing the bare minimum - not being dishonorable.

There is a difference between "not being dishonorable" and "being honorable".

3PowerApr 15, 20181 votes