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Was I toxic or intentionally provoked and harassed?

LegitBusinessman··1 votes·908 views

I put in a support ticket for this but that server has been having problems it seems, so let's try the boards.

Context: Game 2 was me wretchedly frustrated and tilted by my TK supp who followed me around eating my last hits, spitting them out, not eating me from danger, purposely ulting on top of me to troll me out of farm. All. Game. The most toxic thing I did was call him a bronze idiot at the point I realized he was trolling me on purpose after ulting into me to further troll me.

Game 1 is the very next game. I am swearing a lot. And I am having an awful game. I'm getting snowballed on by a Trist. At one point I'm 0/9, and my team begins to call for me to be reported for trolling. At this point Teemo begins harassing me. All. Game. Relentlessly. (I received a ban notice for reporting him). Yes, I am frustrated, typing in caps, and swearing, yet most of it is me literally trying to defend myself, not me actually being toxic to people. At one point I was told not to go bot, I said trist would just take the inhib for free, I complied. I went mid. She got a double kill bot and got the inhib. And here come Teemo and sejuani calling me to be reported for trolling again. It's frustrating because I'm trying to keep my cool, I'm certainly not trolling on purpose. I /mute all to refocus twice this game and undo the /mute all because I would like to at least try to cooperate with my team who was relatively well off despite me being so behind. Harassment continues at which point i kinda just snap. I start just spamming shut up over and over and over. Also contextual: Guy admitted he was drunk and high so just the way in which he was talking was enough to make me feel pretty crappy about myself.

Question: Is this ban worthy considering the context. I OBVIOUSLY had issues in the past. But to feel like I was making real progress on keeping my cool and reforming and then have my account permabanned because someone else falsely reported me for trolling feels really crappy. My regret was not keeping /mute all in effect but since the reports are automated it wouldn't have mattered he was settled on reporting me long before the game ended, or at least I'm assuming.

Game 1 LegitBusinessman: you could have just queued for norms LegitBusinessman: .... LegitBusinessman: lol youare the definition of the type of player LegitBusinessman: no one wants on their team LegitBusinessman: we can b LegitBusinessman: mb LegitBusinessman: she has no stealth LegitBusinessman: not 6 yet LegitBusinessman: ill take it LegitBusinessman: SO CLOSE LegitBusinessman: yeah LegitBusinessman: dc deserved a win LegitBusinessman: after that a jon jones garbage LegitBusinessman: yo yasuo LegitBusinessman: followin the roam LegitBusinessman: my mid followed a roam LegitBusinessman: friggin rare LegitBusinessman: YOU COULD BE ON TSM LegitBusinessman: AMIRITE LegitBusinessman: i knew it LegitBusinessman: im bronze LegitBusinessman: tristana takes SO MUCH SKILL LegitBusinessman: braum fam LegitBusinessman: cant just abandon lane like that LegitBusinessman: sorry LegitBusinessman: seriously LegitBusinessman: The most no skill adcf int he game LegitBusinessman: Fucking ridiculous LegitBusinessman: cant. LegitBusinessman: tristana infinite jumps LegitBusinessman: yo LegitBusinessman: someone LegitBusinessman: help me do something LegitBusinessman: about this trist LegitBusinessman: are you serious LegitBusinessman: this tristana is fed LegitBusinessman: and im sitting down here 1 v 2ing LegitBusinessman: the last 10 minutes LegitBusinessman: and no ones doing anything LegitBusinessman: braum jsut left lane LegitBusinessman: i mean if you want to just let her take LegitBusinessman: bot inhib for free LegitBusinessman: thats your call ill gladly comply LegitBusinessman: theres a minimap sej LegitBusinessman: lower right of hte screen LegitBusinessman: its not secret hte lane has gone to shit LegitBusinessman: no one did anything about it LegitBusinessman: yes LegitBusinessman: no YOU need to work as a taem LegitBusinessman: as in LegitBusinessman: help the lane LegitBusinessman: thats not doing well LegitBusinessman: fuck it fine LegitBusinessman: you get it what you want LegitBusinessman: let them have bot for free LegitBusinessman: report me LegitBusinessman: are you serious LegitBusinessman: im 0/4 LegitBusinessman: preventing what just happened LegitBusinessman: in bot LegitBusinessman: from happening LegitBusinessman: Can you not read LegitBusinessman: I have been sitting bot. 1 v 2ing. So they dont get an inhib for free. LegitBusinessman: So you tell me to stop pushing and work as a team LegitBusinessman: so thats what I did LegitBusinessman: and she gets a double kill bot LegitBusinessman: now you want to report me LegitBusinessman: for doing the thing LegitBusinessman: you told me to do LegitBusinessman: no i went mid LegitBusinessman: and she got a double LegitBusinessman: lol ok LegitBusinessman: so ive been saying for the last 15 minutes LegitBusinessman: that trist is gonna run around everywhere LegitBusinessman: and youre all like 'stop whining' 'work as a team' LegitBusinessman: and so i do that LegitBusinessman: i do what you tell me to do LegitBusinessman: so she gets a double on sej and braum because im mid LegitBusinessman: because you told me to stop puyshing bot LegitBusinessman: AND THEN YOU ASK PEOPLE TO REPORT ME LegitBusinessman: FOR DOING THE SHIT LegitBusinessman: YOU TOLD ME TO DO LegitBusinessman: screw you guys LegitBusinessman: ive been asking fo rhelp for 20 minutes LegitBusinessman: you just left me out to dry LegitBusinessman: im not trolling LegitBusinessman: im fucking trying LegitBusinessman: thats why ia sked for help LegitBusinessman: because i knew i was behind LegitBusinessman: youve just been a dick all game LegitBusinessman: the fuck if i wanna come and help you LegitBusinessman: i have been telling you guys ALL GAME. bot was a mess LegitBusinessman: OH NO REPORT TEEMO TROLLING LegitBusinessman: fuck off LegitBusinessman: you have tilted me so hard LegitBusinessman: ill win next game LegitBusinessman: just shut up LegitBusinessman: i am trying LegitBusinessman: youre just tilting me LegitBusinessman: so hard LegitBusinessman: shut up LegitBusinessman: suht up LegitBusinessman: for what LegitBusinessman: IM TRYING LegitBusinessman: SHUT UP LegitBusinessman: WE GOT CAMPED BY EVE LegitBusinessman: you are TILTING ME LegitBusinessman: THATS ALL YOURE DOING LegitBusinessman: SERIOUSLY SHUT UP LegitBusinessman: SHUT UP LegitBusinessman: IM NOT TROLLING LegitBusinessman: SHUT UP LegitBusinessman: SHUT UP LegitBusinessman: SHUT UP LegitBusinessman: SHUT UP LegitBusinessman: ALL YOUVE DONE IS PURPOSELY AGITATE ME ALL GAME LegitBusinessman: to be fair teemo LegitBusinessman: youve died more than me LegitBusinessman: okease report this teemo LegitBusinessman: He has done nothing bt harass me LegitBusinessman: And agitate me LegitBusinessman: All game Game 2 LegitBusinessman: zoinks scoob LegitBusinessman: gonna have to farm this one out LegitBusinessman: tk LegitBusinessman: wtf LegitBusinessman: are you doing LegitBusinessman: WTF LegitBusinessman: IM IN BRONZE LegitBusinessman: WTF LegitBusinessman: what was that tp LegitBusinessman: just dont LegitBusinessman: tk LegitBusinessman: stop LegitBusinessman: auytoing minions LegitBusinessman: tk LegitBusinessman: stop LegitBusinessman: autonig the minions LegitBusinessman: i need to farm them man LegitBusinessman: lol LegitBusinessman: EAT ME LegitBusinessman: SAVE ME LegitBusinessman: YOU BRONZE IDIOT LegitBusinessman: YOU DEVOUR ME. LegitBusinessman: AND RUN AWAY LegitBusinessman: ok LegitBusinessman: you know what LegitBusinessman: im leaving bot LegitBusinessman: im sorry LegitBusinessman: this tk doesnt know how to play league LegitBusinessman: hes just inting man LegitBusinessman: why do i ge tmatched with people like this LegitBusinessman: this guy doesnt know how to play his champ LegitBusinessman: at all LegitBusinessman: ok LegitBusinessman: tahm LegitBusinessman: go away LegitBusinessman: leave bot LegitBusinessman: because i need to freeze this to farm LegitBusinessman: i cant LegitBusinessman: this tk doesnt let me lol LegitBusinessman: tk LegitBusinessman: stop LegitBusinessman: wtf LegitBusinessman: ius wrong with this guy LegitBusinessman: Report this TK for trolling LegitBusinessman: Dude doesnt eat his adc. is just autoing minions all day LegitBusinessman: I cant even farm LegitBusinessman: i dont care LegitBusinessman: im gonna suicide split push LegitBusinessman: i dont even have a BF yet LegitBusinessman: so LegitBusinessman: fuck it LegitBusinessman: this TK has been dicking me all game LegitBusinessman: POISON

70 Comments

redniwediS8 votes

Was I toxic or intentionally provoked and harassed?

These two things are not mutually exclusive. Retaliation is not self defense, and is not acceptable.

LegitBusinessman1 votes

{quoted}

These two things are not mutually exclusive. Retaliation is not self defense, and is not acceptable.

I agree. I'm asking if you think what I did was actual retaliation or frantic self-defense.

The one toxic thing I said wasn't even to a person but rather to Tristana's kit who I think makes her far too safe to play and I think is frustrating to play against.

redniwediS3 votes

Self defense is taking action to prevent harm. By the looks of it this was your intent, but the only real way to prevent harm here is to make use of the mute button.

Retaliation is attempting to harm another as they have harmed you.

LegitBusinessman: no YOU need to work as a taem LegitBusinessman: Can you not read LegitBusinessman: YOU BRONZE IDIOT LegitBusinessman: this tk doesnt know how to play league

It doesn't really matter whether or not you think someone deserves it, attempting to harm another through chat, even if it's only to alleviate some of the frustration you're feeling, is not acceptable. You're not nearly as toxic as other people who get punished around here, and it seems like you're heart is in the right place even if your head is not, so unless your current punishment was a permaban (meaning you ignored all warnings up to this point) I can see you coming back from this.

Make use of the mute button instead of arguing, take breaks in between games to cool your head, and find a way to vent outside of the game.

LegitBusinessman1 votes

{quoted}

Self defense is taking action to prevent harm. By the looks of it this was your intent, but the only real way to prevent harm here is to make use of the mute button.

Retaliation is attempting to harm another as they have harmed you.

It doesn't really matter whether or not you think someone deserves it, attempting to harm another through chat, even if it's only to alleviate some of the frustration you're feeling, is not acceptable. You're not nearly as toxic as other people who get punished around here, and it seems like you're heart is in the right place even if your head is not, so unless your current punishment was a permaban (meaning you ignored all warnings up to this point) I can see you coming back from this.

Make use of the mute button instead of arguing, take breaks in between games to cool your head, and find a way to vent outside of the game.

It is a permaban. And yes, I was intentionally and terribly toxic in the past. But I really had no idea how strict the rules are to the point that vehemently defending myself from reports that I be reported for trolling falsely constituted as toxicity. If this is really the case, I wonder why there's a chat option at all. It seems the goal is to remove any and all semblance of negativity 100% but we're dealing with human beings so that's just objectively impossible.

I've never tried to defend my past restrictions. I'd log in, see the notice, read the chat logs, and say "Yeah, I can't really defend myself against that. That's pretty bad. Gotta work on that." To have my account banned for THIS feels horrible.

To come onto the boards and have a mod tell me that 'Yes venting frustrating at the person who followed you around and trolled you for the entirety of a game is unacceptable' or 'I dont care if you were upset at the guy who was actually toxic you must be a robot and say nothing or you also will get rightfully reported' feels totally bizarre.

redniwediS1 votes

Here's the thing, nothing you said actually defended you in any way. You spoke out against what was happening, but your words did not stop anything. The recommended action is to use the mute button. False reports are very accurately handled, and the few times they are not a support ticket is allowed to resolve the situation in favor of the player.

Here's a flowchart explaining how Riot's punishment system works.

https://i.imgur.com/ACZhFYu.png

Outside of what Riot considers extreme toxicity punishments are given based on tier and not the severity of the offense. If it was based on severity you would likely have a 10 day chat ban right now due to your punishment history.

Now, before I say what I'm about to say I have to make sure you understand something. Riot drew a hard line in the sand when it comes to reversing permabans. I don't actually remember a case where someone was rightfully punished at the permaban tier and had it overturned, which goes along with everything Riot ever says on the matter.

That said, if you were more toxic in the past than you are now, and have shown actual improvement, and manage to get the right person on a good day, you could attempt to make a support ticket to have the punishment reviewed. It's unlikely enough that I wouldn't actually consider it possible, but it feels like your case is one of those grey area cases that get wrapped into things simply so Riot doesn't have to deal with a constant flow of people saying sorry and asking for punishment reviews. Their side is very understandable, and your side is unfortunate. Other than attempting a support ticket, which again is very unlikely to work, your only other option at this point is to make a new account.

Best of luck to you.

LegitBusinessman1 votes

{quoted}

Here's the thing, nothing you said actually defended you in any way. You spoke out against what was happening, but your words did not stop anything. The recommended action is to use the mute button. False reports are very accurately handled, and the few times they are not a support ticket is allowed to resolve the situation in favor of the player.

Here's a flowchart explaining how Riot's punishment system works.

https://i.imgur.com/ACZhFYu.png

Outside of what Riot considers extreme toxicity punishments are given based on tier and not the severity of the offense. If it was based on severity you would likely have a 10 day chat ban right now due to your punishment history.

Now, before I say what I'm about to say I have to make sure you understand something. Riot drew a hard line in the sand when it comes to reversing permabans. I don't actually remember a case where someone was rightfully punished at the permaban tier and had it overturned, which goes along with everything Riot ever says on the matter.

That said, if you were more toxic in the past than you are now, and have shown actual improvement, and manage to get the right person on a good day, you could attempt to make a support ticket to have the punishment reviewed. It's unlikely enough that I wouldn't actually consider it possible, but it feels like your case is one of those grey area cases that get wrapped into things simply so Riot doesn't have to deal with a constant flow of people saying sorry and asking for punishment reviews. Their side is very understandable, and your side is unfortunate. Other than attempting a support ticket, which again is very unlikely to work, your only other option at this point is to make a new account.

Best of luck to you.

Yeah, will try. I have been having issues with the support tickets the last two days. Trouble signing in yesterday. I had put in a ticket this morning but nothing shows up on the 'my submissions' (or whatever it is called). Will continue trying. Thanks.

OnlyYouCanHearMe1 votes

Unfortunately, you found yourself caught in one of the worst case scenarios. You were coming off a recent 14 day suspension, which meant that ANY continued toxicity or violations of the ToS would result in a permabanning of the account. From your posting history, your last chat restriction was around 2 months ago, so that would put the 14 day suspension very recent. You simply haven't had enough time to put in enough positive games to have worked your account back into good standing.

Nobody here thinks that what your team did was acceptable. It's not right for Tahm Kench to purposefully troll you by ruining your last hitting, or ulting in troll manners. It's also not right for the players in your other match to flame you continually for having a rough match and not being able to read their minds and know exactly what they want you to do. You tried your best, and that's all that can be expected. However, there's a delicate balance to maintain when trying to express frustration, because at the end of the day, it's not our place to reprimand other players. It's Riot's job, and as you saw with the feedback alert on Teemo, they do actually do it. We simply have to give them the chance to do so by submitting reports.

It's also important that we, as players, keep our frustration expression to a minimum in the match. And there's quite a few reasons for this. Chermorg has pointed out one, that it tends to make the players who are not involved in the conflict have to listen to more bickering and anger.

Another reason is that when someone spends that much time typing, focusing on what they are reading, and what they want to type next, it's very hard to maintain any sort of focus on the match. It's very easy to die while typing, or to fall behind if you spend extra time sitting in a bush, in the base, behind a turret, etc., typing rather than farming or absorbing experience. I've seen this sort of thing with some of my friends. They will get so worked up that they will stop on the way back to lane after a death to type to whoever is flaming them, to the point where they lose an entire minion wave's worth of exp by the time they actually make it into the lane. That's a lot of gold and exp lost, which had they been in the lane, they would have at least gotten some of it. And each time it happened, they got further and further behind, which only lead to more deaths, and more flaming, which got him more upset, and then more typing. It was just a never-ending cycle that could have been interrupted if he'd simply stopped typing.

One of the reasons that I tend to cite to people most often is that this kind of venting and anger tends to tilt not only the player who is already the subject of the flaming, but the rest of the team as well. It's very easy for people to lose hope in a match if one person isn't doing well. But that doesn't mean that the match is mechanically unwinnable. If the person being flamed doesn't give in to the frustration, and simply acknowledges that they are having a bad match, but does not argue or respond to the flaming, they still have the ability to still encourage the rest of the team. They can say "I know I'm getting shit on right now. I'm going to try and play safe and farm this out. Let me know what I can do to help you guys win this." Yes, it might take a bit of pride-swallowing to say that to someone who is actively being an asshole to you, but the ultimate goal is to win the match. And sometimes that means letting yourself be carried, and sometimes it means sucking it up and working with people that you would rather slap the crap out of. It's up to you to be the better person when someone flames you.

I suppose what it boils down to is that you were simply very unlucky in encountering a trolling support, and some very toxic teammates. But unfortunately, their actions, while I can somewhat rationalize them emotionally, do not give a justification through Riot's Terms of Use. I wish I had better news for you, as it really does seem like you were just harassed and berated into this.

Chermorg4 votes

Question: Is this ban worthy considering the context. I OBVIOUSLY had issues in the past. But to feel like I was making real progress on keeping my cool and reforming and then have my account permabanned because someone else falsely reported me for trolling feels really crappy. My regret was not keeping /mute all in effect but since the reports are automated it wouldn't have mattered he was settled on reporting me long before the game ended, or at least I'm assuming.

You are asking the wrong question here. The proper question is is this ban worthy. The context of the game, and anything any other players say or do does not matter. It does not excuse your behavior at all. You were validly reported for constant harassment of another player in the game over the course of two separate games.

LegitBusinessman1 votes

{quoted}

You are asking the wrong question here. The proper question is is this ban worthy. The context of the game, and anything any other players say or do does not matter. It does not excuse your behavior at all. You were validly reported for constant harassment of another player in the game over the course of two separate games.

  1. Does expressing frustration constitute harassment.

  2. "anything any other players say or do does not matter." This is crazy to actually believe. You deny people the ability to have human responses for people ganging up on them over the course of an entire game. This sounds like 'let's punish the victim too for having a human response to a situation of egregious harassment.'

Chermorg5 votes

  1. You are not “expressing frustration”. You are constantly, consistently, and rudely attempting to judge another for behavior, and threatening and calling for others to report them.

  2. You are perfectly fine to have a human response. The human response to someone cursing you or feeding (insert whatever behavior you want here) is to get a little frustrated, maybe angry/depressed/sad. The normal human response is not to go and attack them constantly for the course of a meaningless video game. Furthermore, even if it was okay to attack them, you have 3+ innocent players you’re causing a toxic environment for.

LegitBusinessman1 votes

{quoted}

  1. You are not “expressing frustration”. You are constantly, consistently, and rudely attempting to judge another for behavior, and threatening and calling for others to report them.

  2. You are perfectly fine to have a human response. The human response to someone cursing you or feeding (insert whatever behavior you want here) is to get a little frustrated, maybe angry/depressed/sad. The normal human response is not to go and attack them constantly for the course of a meaningless video game. Furthermore, even if it was okay to attack them, you have 3+ innocent players you’re causing a toxic environment for.

This is kind of astonishing to read. Where am I 'constantly judging another'. The word constantly implies protracted or over a long period of time? Am I to understand I should not have asked the players to report the TK for trolling when he was OBVIOUSLY AND INTENTIONALLY trolling me all game? Is it now toxic to ask someone to report a toxic player?

Again, I am not ' attacking a a person constantly for the course' of a game. Where are you reading this?

Chermorg3 votes

“Obviously and intentionally” is your opinion. Furthermore, even if he was, you do not have the right to cause a toxic environment because of it.

There were three people who spent the 20+ minute game feeling like shit because they had to watch you abuse this other person in the game. Yeah, if he was doing bad or trolling they were likely mad at him. But then you made them have to not only deal with his trolling, but with watching you be a jerk to him for it.

And yes, it is toxic to constantly call for reports. Aside from the fact it is unnecessary, it is harassment if you do it repeatedly as you did in these games.

LegitBusinessman1 votes

{quoted}

“Obviously and intentionally” is your opinion. Furthermore, even if he was, you do not have the right to cause a toxic environment because of it.

There were three people who spent the 20+ minute game feeling like shit because they had to watch you abuse this other person in the game. Yeah, if he was doing bad or trolling they were likely mad at him. But then you made them have to not only deal with his trolling, but with watching you be a jerk to him for it.

And yes, it is toxic to constantly call for reports. Aside from the fact it is unnecessary, it is harassment if you do it repeatedly as you did in these games.

This is a disturbing display of victim shaming. You're also assuming the other players 'felt like shit' rather than being sympathetic to my situation. Why?

Add on to that, I question if you even read the chat logs because you're accusing me of constantly calling for reports when I asked each person be reported one time each, and one time only.

Chermorg2 votes

You aren’t the victim. You ceased to be the victim the second you committed the same crime (contributing to a toxic environment).

Further, I consider every time you repeatedly say they’re trolling to be calling for reports as well, as it factors in.

LegitBusinessman1 votes

{quoted}

You aren’t the victim. You ceased to be the victim the second you committed the same crime (contributing to a toxic environment).

Further, I consider every time you repeatedly say they’re trolling to be calling for reports as well, as it factors in.

How does ulting to me for no reason, intentionally eating cannon minions to spit them out, sitting still when I'm being attacked and not helping, purposely fighting me for last hits on minions, all game when I'm in a side lane rather than helping the team.... at what point is he... maybe... ACTUALLY TROLLING in which me saying he is trolling might not be toxic but just stating a fact?

Like obviously you play the game too, let's be real here. You've NEVER seen this happen and thought 'yeah, this guy is clearly trolling.' From one league player to another, we know enough about mechanics to know when a person is trying to troll you on purpose.

Chermorg1 votes

If you read what I said before, it does not matter if it is a fact.

  1. You don’t have the authority to make that determination of fact - Riot does.

  2. Even if it is a fact, it is virtually always toxic in that it creates a toxic environment.

LegitBusinessman1 votes

{quoted}

If you read what I said before, it does not matter if it is a fact.

  1. You don’t have the authority to make that determination of fact - Riot does.

  2. Even if it is a fact, it is virtually always toxic in that it creates a toxic environment.

Are you aware of what you are reading? You are literally saying that if a person intentionally trolls you all game and you ask them to be reported for trolling, you are being toxic. Wtf? I am actually mind blown by what you are saying. This is literally the same mindset that leads to 'It's the girls fault she got raped she shouldn't have been at that location.'

And no, I think that's dead wrong. The toxic environment is losing a game for a team by setting 2 people perpetually behind. Calling it for what it is isn't toxic.

Chermorg1 votes

Yes, I read what I wrote, and I know exactly what I wrote. It is toxic to constantly create a negative environment by talking about negative behavior. When you do so, you turn one negative player into two.

And no, it’s not the same thing as that. You have a choice to be negative, accusatory, constantly berating someone else, threatening reports... the girl has no choice here.

To your last point - again, it is not mutually exclusive. I am not denying the other player may have created a toxic environment. But you did the same and are equally at fault for it. The blame does not have to lie on one person.

LegitBusinessman1 votes

{quoted}

Yes, I read what I wrote, and I know exactly what I wrote. It is toxic to constantly create a negative environment by talking about negative behavior. When you do so, you turn one negative player into two.

And no, it’s not the same thing as that. You have a choice to be negative, accusatory, constantly berating someone else, threatening reports... the girl has no choice here.

To your last point - again, it is not mutually exclusive. I am not denying the other player may have created a toxic environment. But you did the same and are equally at fault for it. The blame does not have to lie on one person.

Your expectation that people not act like human beings and have human reactions to these situations comes off really disturbing my dude.

Why is there even a report option for griefing / trolling if being vocal that you think that report option might apply to any situation also makes you toxic? That's absolutely ridiculous.

Chermorg1 votes

{quoted}

You are perfectly fine to have a human response. The human response to someone cursing you or feeding (insert whatever behavior you want here) is to get a little frustrated, maybe angry/depressed/sad. The normal human response is not to go and attack them constantly for the course of a meaningless video game. Furthermore, even if it was okay to attack them, you have 3+ innocent players you’re causing a toxic environment for.

This is not a normal human response, the response you had is abuse and retaliation - neither of which are normal human reactions. Normal human reactions (as 90+% of the community who have never gotten any punishment know) is to mute them and understand this is just a video game.

LegitBusinessman1 votes

{quoted}

This is not a normal human response, the response you had is abuse and retaliation - neither of which are normal human reactions. Normal human reactions (as 90+% of the community who have never gotten any punishment know) is to mute them and understand this is just a video game.

If I could a mute a persons actions that would be fine. Not having any choice but to try to play around a person trying to screw you? There is no option for that. Feelsbad.

As to the case with the Teemo/Sejuani, the ironic part about that as I mentioned is I did /mute all during that game for a large chunk of time. I honestly felt the game was winnable, and undid the mute for no other reason than to try and see what my team was saying so maybe I could be of some use.

PresBushDid7112 votes

{quoted}

If I could a mute a persons actions that would be fine. Not having any choice but to try to play around a person trying to screw you? There is no option for that. Feelsbad.

As to the case with the Teemo/Sejuani, the ironic part about that as I mentioned is I did /mute all during that game for a large chunk of time. I honestly felt the game was winnable, and undid the mute for no other reason than to try and see what my team was saying so maybe I could be of some use.

You are right, there isn't a way to play around someone intent on trolling. In this case, the troll ruined the game for 9 people. You decided your course of action would be to feed the troll. Your own actions now contributed to two people ruining the game for at least three other people.

I'm not sure why this is a complicated issue. If you walked into the supermarket and upon entry some guy stole your cart and called you an asshole; there are many ways you could respond. However, I assure you if you followed each other around going at each other the other customers would ask both of you to gtfo.

ModPeriscope1 votes

Not so much felt like shit as had to deal with your communication which did not focus on the game.

LegitBusinessman1 votes

I am basically being told that reporting a person for obvious and intentional trolling is toxic. But defending yourself against people falsely asking others to report you for trolling is also toxic.

You are also not allowed to vent frustration over any of these issues at all. That is also toxic.

Telephone Booth4 votes

{quoted}

I am basically being told that reporting a person for obvious and intentional trolling is toxic. But defending yourself against people falsely asking others to report you for trolling is also toxic.

You are also not allowed to vent frustration over any of these issues at all. That is also toxic.

Who told you reporting a troll is toxic? That person is probably trolling you and yet again, you're taking the bait. However, defending yourself is often misunderstood. Defending yourself in the middle of a match would probably best be defined as /mute. That's self defense. You took away the problem. You silenced the threat. Insulting people is not self defense. Someone calls you an idiot, and you respond with "no, you're an idiot!" Is not self defense.

Ninja Assassin1 votes

Most people are taught to confront and solve a problem instead of avoid it in real life. I can't say I blame someone for retaliating if they intend to fix the problem.

Chermorg2 votes

Confronting it generally involves resolving the issue - contacting the police, for example. Confronting a violent threat, for example, is taught as an absolute last resort. There is absolutely no reason to confront a problem when you have an easy way out, and especially no reason to confront over a video game.

Ninja Assassin1 votes

Probably shouldn't equate a violent threat to name-calling on a video game. Most verbal confrontations I have do result in a resolution. The resolution may not be mutually beneficial, but a resolution definitely will not be reached by simply ignoring the other person.

LegitBusinessman1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Crimson Elite ,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=23qPTO10,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-23T23:45:43.993+0000)

Probably shouldn't equate a violent threat to name-calling on a video game. Most verbal confrontations I have do result in a resolution. The resolution may not be mutually beneficial, but a resolution definitely will not be reached by simply ignoring the other person.

The other issue is that the summoner's code asks that people work together as a team to win, and not to purposely throw a game or troll it out. It was literally with this issue in mind that I undid the /mute all, exposed myself to further verbal flaming, which put me again into fight or flight or mode. I see again he's STILL in all chat asking everyone to 9x me, and I KNOW my account is on icy ground, so I responded to him hoping to convince people I'm not inting, and it spirals from there.

The thing is the way reports are handled you're saying 'You should have muted him and moved on.' Well he had it settled in his mind he was going to report me 10 minutes in, so even if I do everything properly in that situation, the account is still permabanned regardless!

ModPeriscope1 votes

Well he had it settled in his mind he was going to report me 10 minutes in, so even if I do everything properly in that situation, the account is still permabanned

I don't know if that's true. When people post their logs here, it's pretty normal that they were toxic, and never attempted to stop being toxic in a game, typing more than your average person in chat.

I haven't seen someone post it here, but 9 reports is equivalent to 1 report: any number of reports will trigger a review of your chat.

So when you call for reports on a player, it's an empty and meaningless threat, and at worst , it can be considered harassment.

OnlyYouCanHearMe6 votes

I can attest to this as a self-defense instructor. I've taught everything from the one day courses, to weeks long intensive training courses.

We do not teach our students to fight back as a first resort. Or a second. Or a third. It is the very last resort when there are no other options. The first resort is always to try and escape the situation. If you can't run, you call for help, or if you are running, call for help while you are running. And if you cannot run, and no one comes to help, then and only then do you fight. But you have to be aware that the moment you decide to fight, you are going to get hurt. If they have a knife, you are going to get cut. If they have a gun, they may shoot you. If they have any sort of bat/pipe/stick, they may break your arm or leg. If they are bigger and stronger, they are going to hit you, kick you, beat you and bruise you. And you have to be prepared to accept that consequence. It would take us a long time to get our students to the point where they were actually ready to face that fact, and were capable of not freezing up like a scared bunny, or simply falling to pieces the first time they were "cut," "shot," or hit when confronted in practice scenarios.

To parallel that to a League match, if someone is being verbally abusive, you would try to escape their abuse long before you would try to verbally abuse them back. And Riot has given players an infallible way to do so. We have the ability to mute everything a player says in game; their chat, their pings, and their emotes. And even beyond that, we have the ability to call for help after the match by reporting the players. As long as we do that, we're in no danger of being hurt because we didn't decide to fight back. But if we, as players, decide to fight back with verbal abuse, we run the risk of being injured with the very weapon we try to wield. We subject ourselves to the same punishments that our attackers face, because we too are breaking the rules at that point. That is where the analogy ends. Where the victims of violent crimes must fight to defend their lives, our lives are not at risk in League of Legends, merely our pride and vanity.

LegitBusinessman1 votes

{quoted}

I can attest to this as a self-defense instructor. I've taught everything from the one day courses, to weeks long intensive training courses.

We do not teach our students to fight back as a first resort. Or a second. Or a third. It is the very last resort when there are no other options. The first resort is always to try and escape the situation. If you can't run, you call for help, or if you are running, call for help while you are running. And if you cannot run, and no one comes to help, then and only then do you fight. But you have to be aware that the moment you decide to fight, you are going to get hurt. If they have a knife, you are going to get cut. If they have a gun, they may shoot you. If they have any sort of bat/pipe/stick, they may break your arm or leg. If they are bigger and stronger, they are going to hit you, kick you, beat you and bruise you. And you have to be prepared to accept that consequence. It would take us a long time to get our students to the point where they were actually ready to face that fact, and were capable of not freezing up like a scared bunny, or simply falling to pieces the first time they were "cut," "shot," or hit when confronted in practice scenarios.

To parallel that to a League match, if someone is being verbally abusive, you would try to escape their abuse long before you would try to verbally abuse them back. And Riot has given players an infallible way to do so. We have the ability to mute everything a player says in game; their chat, their pings, and their emotes. And even beyond that, we have the ability to call for help after the match by reporting the players. As long as we do that, we're in no danger of being hurt because we didn't decide to fight back. But if we, as players, decide to fight back with verbal abuse, we run the risk of being injured with the very weapon we try to wield. We subject ourselves to the same punishments that our attackers face, because we too are breaking the rules at that point. That is where the analogy ends. Where the victims of violent crimes must fight to defend their lives, our lives are not at risk in League of Legends, merely our pride and vanity.

I don't disagree with this, but at the end of the day people make mistakes. Is it really reasonable to tell people 'ToS says you must act infallible 100% of the time.' While you've built this competitive culture, unban Tyler 1, have streamers on Twitch that will say things far beyond what are in my logs, this expectation feels unrealistic.

These were subsequent games too. I went right from TK trolling to the Teemo / Sej hard flaming me. "I understand you were trolled and berated for over 60 minutes straight, how dare you eventually respond!" While this sounds virtuous, and it is, how many people would actually hold themselves or even their friends to that standard?

Your best friend is harassed for an over an hour straight, do you tell him to stop being toxic when he wants to defend himself? Would you really apply those same standards to your own life?

ModPeriscope1 votes

You don't have to be infallible, just not show a history of consistent toxicity, without any change in behavior.

do you tell him to stop being toxic when he wants to defend

Yes I would: talking about things unrelated to winning takes away from everyone's focus of the game.

LegitBusinessman1 votes

{quoted}

You don't have to be infallible, just not show a history of consistent toxicity, without any change in behavior.

Yes I would: talking about things unrelated to winning takes away from everyone's focus of the game.

I'd have to say you're a pretty poor friend then my dude.

ModPeriscope1 votes

Some people can't be reasoned with. Take you for example: despite what multiple people have said here, there doesn't appear to be any fault you've acknowledged. The same goes on in game. Players continue being toxic, and no amount of chat will change that.

That would be why I'd tell my friend to stop. We'd have a better chance at winning, and he'd still have his account.

OnlyYouCanHearMe1 votes

That's very true, people do make mistakes. Riot understands this, and despite how it sometimes comes across on the Boards, those of us who spend a significant amount of time replying here do as well. No one is trying to tell you that you must act infallible 100% of the time. Even the ToS doesn't demand that of players. It's specifically designed so that players are not punished for occasional outbursts of mild toxicity. It's only when a pattern has developed that players begin to be punished for each subsequent outburst. Had your account not already been where it was on the punishment ladder, these two games likely would not have gotten you more than a 10 game chat restriction, if that.

And to be perfectly honest, would I tell my best friend to stop being toxic? Yes. But not in the way you might think. My best friend is my duo partner, and when someone is on his case, and he's getting worked up and is tempted to start saying something back, I tell him to ignore the little pissant, because nothing some snot-nosed little ass-wipe on the internet says matters. And he listens to me, because deep down, he knows I'm right. The opinions of over-competitive and under-skilled people who would rather bitch other players out than accept their own share of responsibility for the loss do. not. matter. Those opinions are not worth the time it takes you to type out a reply to them. Don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about things like suggestions on items to build, or gameplay tactics. Those opinions very well could be helpful. But someone who is just being a jackass? That ain't worth shit, and I wouldn't hesitate to tell my friend that. I've done it many times in the past.

You ask if I would apply those same standards to my own life. Quite simply, the answer is yes. Aside from the fact that I'm generally quite hard to rile up, it boils down to the fact that I'm attached to my account. I'm not willing to sacrifice the time and money I have put into it just to salvage my pride with someone that I'm probably never going to see again once I exit out of the post-game lobby. And that is something that I remind my friends of any time they are tempted to argue back with a troll or a flamer.

Ninja Assassin1 votes

It's a bad analogy in the first place, though. Responding to harassment in an online game is much more equatable to having an argument in real life. We shouldn't be drawing parallels between a mugging and a case of online harassment, because they don't carry the same weight or follow the same risk progression.

OnlyYouCanHearMe3 votes

Just because you don't like the analogy doesn't mean it isn't a good one. But if you would prefer we use having an argument in real life, so be it. You still have the option of walking away from the argument. It's the best option. It's the only one that is going to give you the time and space to calm down until you can think rationally. Arguments rarely get better when you simply try to out-argue the other person.

Walk away = mute.

Ninja Assassin1 votes

My opinion is irrelevant. The analogy is objectively bad, because its trying to compare mortal consequences with light emotional consequences. Life or death situations are not comparable to online arguments. Your life is not at risk in this game, ever. As, I said in the previous comment, a more apt comparison would be to that of an argument in real life not a mugging or situation in which you should use self-defense.

If you want to discuss your other analogy above, you need to consider more than one factor of the situation. Not everyone has the privilege of walking away from an argument. Sometimes your job is on the line or even something of monetary value. Also, not all arguments have to be heated and irrational, I personally rarely get upset when arguing with people, which I do a lot at one of my jobs. When you are forced to accept consequences that are unjust, because some outside force will punish you for arguing your case, that is when we enter a moral grey area.

If I paid for a product, but received a damage one I would go to the store and return it. If the clerk were to tell me that I can't return the product because I can't prove that it was already broken to begin with, should I just walk away from the argument and suck it up? By your kind of logic this would be the right choice, but I just can't rationally accept an outcome like that. It's these kind of experiences, which some people deal with every single day, that will leak into our conduct in a game (that makes up a very small percentage of our time spent in comparison) and make us behave a little less maturely. So, I don't find it unreasonable for someone to snap back at another player who is insulting them.

OnlyYouCanHearMe2 votes

I believe I actually pointed out in my initial comment that our lives were never at risk in a League match.

And it's fine if you want to change an analogy to one that deals with arguments. I've already addressed that, but if you're going to insist on having comparable analogies, it's not comparable to use an argument at work where a person's job, and thus their livelihood, could be in jeopardy and the average non-professional gamer or non-full-time streamer. There is a great wealth of difference between an argument that could potentially disrupt a person's financial security, possibly even cause them to lose their home if they lose their job over the argument, and an argument in a video game that at worst, will have their account banned.

And as to the returned product logic.... No. Walking away, in and of itself, accomplishes nothing, and I've never once said to walk away without directly linking it to it's League equivalent of muting. The entire point behind walking away/muting is to find the appropriate solution to the situation as per the Terms of Use that were agreed upon by the player and the Company. In the case of flaming, Riot has been very specific. They have instructed players many, many times in how to handle this situation. Players are to mute, report, and move on. Which would be the equivalent of walking away from an argument, or simply choosing not to participate in it.

But when you purchase an item, that falls under an entirely different set of Terms and Conditions, which are specific to the store from which you bought the item. If you've read the things I have posted in this thread, or in any other thread that I've posted in, one of the first things I tend to do in situations where someone is contesting a punishment is go through the post and determine if the player actually violated the ToS or not. It's the same when someone buys a product that is defective. Look at the return policy. Are they following the procedure correctly? Is it under warranty? Did they use it properly? Do they have all the necessary paperwork for a return (receipt, packaging, etc)? If it turns out that their brand new flat screen TV is broken because they dropped it, well no, I'm not going to be very supportive of that person. But if they have done everything correct, and the item is simply defective, and they have all the right information and the clerk is still being obtuse? I would tell them to ask to speak to a manager. Or to call customer service. And if that didn't work, I would recommend they ask to speak to that person's manager, until they found someone who could rectify the situation. As long as the person has followed the rules outlined in the Terms and Conditions that they agreed to at the time of purchase, and has been polite, I would be supportive of their efforts.

The difference between that situation and League though is that the players who are complaining are often not following the rules. And that doesn't give them very much leverage or sympathy when asking for leniency.

Telephone Booth1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Crimson Elite ,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=23qPTO10,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2018-01-23T23:37:35.839+0000)

Most people are taught to confront and solve a problem instead of avoid it in real life. I can't say I blame someone for retaliating if they intend to fix the problem.

True, but you have the intelligence to seperate real life from being in a video game with a specific set of rules.

Ninja Assassin1 votes

Just because the rules and punishments for a game are different than real life, doesn't mean they are fair or just. When it comes down to it, playing this game makes up a small portion of a person's time spent living, so I don't think of it as unreasonable to let some of the concepts and habits people develop in real life leak into their behavior within the game. Especially, when people are stressed or angry and not thinking completely rationally.

Telephone Booth1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Crimson Elite ,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=23qPTO10,comment-id=00020000000000010000,timestamp=2018-01-24T00:48:09.483+0000)

Just because the rules and punishments for a game are different than real life, doesn't mean they are fair or just. When it comes down to it, playing this game makes up a small portion of a person's time spent living, so I don't think of it as unreasonable to let some of the concepts and habits people develop in real life leak into their behavior within the game. Especially, when people are stressed or angry and not thinking completely rationally.

Same. Within reason.

Ninja Assassin1 votes

Glad we agree, its just hard for me to see the op's chat as unreasonable frustration.

Telephone Booth3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Crimson Elite ,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=23qPTO10,comment-id=0002000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-24T02:45:53.190+0000)

Glad we agree, its just hard for me to see the op's chat as unreasonable frustration.

Any chat log THAT long, filled with negativity, should be punishable imo. During game, it is the time to play. His ban isn't for unreasonable frustration. It's for excessively arguing with people in the middle of a game.

I'm trying to play and dodge/land skillshots while keeping position in lane, keep track of enemy positions on the minimap, ability cooldowns, timers, so much shit going on, and my teammate is spending his time ARGUING WITH STRANGERS??? sorry, no. I don't want people like that on my team. Grow up, mute, play the game. The middle of a match is not the time to hold court on who did what, who said what, the reasons for saying it, why it's wrong, why it's right, etc...

And I think what I'm asking for is very reasonable and simple. It's not asking you to be a saint, or an emotionless robot. It's to just play the fucking game and stop arguing with people who have no effect on your life.

Ninja Assassin1 votes

Then we just have different opinions, because I don't mind chat logs that long. If anything it shows me how passionate a person is about the game and winning.

I guess I'm just not one to hold other people's performance against them and instead only focus on my own play. I don't need an excuse for losing or to report someone because they "cost" me the game. If he was on my team and we lost, it would simply be because I didn't play well enough to carry him.

Guess what I'm trying to say is a team-mate typing too much is not unreasonable and it shouldn't affect your own play.

Telephone Booth1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Crimson Elite ,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=23qPTO10,comment-id=000200000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-24T03:59:54.630+0000)

Then we just have different opinions, because I don't mind chat logs that long. If anything it shows me how passionate a person is about the game and winning.

I guess I'm just not one to hold other people's performance against them and instead only focus on my own play. I don't need an excuse for losing or to report someone because they "cost" me the game. If he was on my team and we lost, it would simply be because I didn't play well enough to carry him.

Guess what I'm trying to say is a team-mate typing too much is not unreasonable and it shouldn't affect your own play.

Yeah I guess we just disagree. Meh. Lol nice discussion though

EXE FallenKnight1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Crimson Elite ,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=23qPTO10,comment-id=0002000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-24T02:45:53.190+0000)

Glad we agree, its just hard for me to see the op's chat as unreasonable frustration.

see it isnt the fact he/she is frustrated that got them banned. It is how they acted out that frustration. You dont walk up to someone with a mental disability and say "HOLY SHIT ARE YOU RETARDED" yeah what they do might be frustrating, but you dont yell at them for it. The Tahm kench game is a tough one I get it, I have definitely had those players and wish them nothing but a ban screen for the last of their days. However a game in which someone is being toxic to you, it is not reasonable, nor is it helpful to instill your own negativity into the situation. Is it hard to press the mute button and ignore everyone? Yes. Is it scary to think someone is sitting there slowly convincing your teammates and opponents to report you while you cant defend yourself because you cant see it? Yes. The fact is, if you are doing your best, and not being toxic the system will not punish you even if all 9 players pressed the report button. The OP's problem is, in fact that retorting toxicity to someone who is being toxic is being TOXIC and reportable and in this event BOTH players should be reported and punished.(If you shoot up a church because your church got shot up are you gonna argue the fact that your shooting was justified?) If you had pressed mute, played your best, and at the end said "hey this guy(s) were incredibly toxic and flamed me all game, please report them. If your teammates that werent being toxic are doing their duty as players they will also report these players and the system will properly punish toxic players.

Ninja Assassin1 votes

Of course hindsight is 20/20, but people rarely think of the consequences when frustrated. I don't think its unreasonable for people to get upset when facing harassment, and for their own chat to reflect that.

Also, lets not bring up trigger words like "retard" or "f%%" because neither were present in his log. Those words are an entirely different topic, because toxicity is not a mental illness and pointing out someone's toxicity doesn't have the same weight as pointing out a disability.

Also, from now on I'm gonna ignore all analogies I keep getting in which people are dying, because it's ridiculous to make a comparison between online harassment and "shooting up a church".

EXE FallenKnight2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Crimson Elite ,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=23qPTO10,comment-id=000200000000000100000000000000010000,timestamp=2018-01-24T05:35:23.743+0000)

Of course hindsight is 20/20, but people rarely think of the consequences when frustrated. I don't think its unreasonable for people to get upset when facing harassment, and for their own chat to reflect that.

Also, lets not bring up trigger words like "retard" or "f%%" because neither were present in his log. Those words are an entirely different topic, because toxicity is not a mental illness and pointing out someone's toxicity doesn't have the same weight as pointing out a disability.

Also, from now on I'm gonna ignore all analogies I keep getting in which people are dying, because it's ridiculous to make a comparison between online harassment and "shooting up a church".

I think my point may have been misinterpreted, it isnt the ACTIONS in my analogies that are similar to the OP's actions, it is the theme or point of said actions that are. I used the mental disability not because he or his teammates are disabled, but because he is venting frustration in a way that does not help (and more often harms) the situation much like calling a mentally disabled person a retard(it doesnt help and is in fact the incorrect way to handle the situation). The church shooting analogy was to symbolize the fact that he was upset someone came in and "hurt" him and the people around him, so what did he do? Went out and was making the attempt to hurt them and the people around him (The players on his team not involved with the toxicity). They werent the greatest analogies, I will admit but it was the best I could do at the time.

On top of that many of the analogies that are posted are "extreme" but that is to reinforce the THEME of the actions, not the actions themselves. Obviously an internet argument is no where near that of a murder or the likes, but it is still the same theme regardless of the amount of exaggeration.

Regardless what he did was wrong, and as such Riot banned him. If it were defensive, rather than aggressive and just as toxic as (I assume) the original toxicity he was receiving then he would be in the clear and worthy of a repeal of his ban.

Were the people harassing him guilty and should they be punished? Yes! Is this individual guilty and should they be punished? Yes!

@Crimson Elite, you have good points, I wouldnt walk away from the clerk either, however /mute all isnt "sucking it up and walking away" it is more akin to "being the bigger man and ignoring those who would try to do you harm" it takes away their power of being able to affect you. Simply put /mute all and reporting the person is more accurate to ignoring said clerk and speaking to a manager rather than just walking away, or getting in a heated argument with a clerk and disrupting the other customers.

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