Normals are un-winnable.

YoungFarmer·May 25, 2017·1 votes·725 views

http://imgur.com/a/eRomn

This is the kind of match making I get every fucking game. These teams arn't fair.

27 Comments

VerxintMay 25, 20174 votes

Considering every single game has a winner and a loser, your title is objectivley false.

YoungFarmerMay 25, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Considering every single game has a winner and a loser, your title is objectivley false.

You know what I meant.

VerxintMay 25, 20173 votes

Unless you have literally lost every single normal game you ever played, your title is hyperbolic and bait.

YoungFarmerMay 25, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Unless you have literally lost every single normal game you ever played, your title is hyperbolic and bait.

I have only won literally 2 games in the last week, and the I get off for the day when I lolskill my game and notice that my whole fucking team is litterally bronze players and the enemy team is all gold or higher.

VerxintMay 25, 20171 votes

So then normal games aren't unwinnable.

Also if you want to not lose games not having double-digit deaths is a good place to start, because you can control that, unlike the matchmaker.

YoungFarmerMay 25, 20171 votes

{quoted}

So then normal games aren't unwinnable.

Also if you want to not lose games not having double-digit deaths is a good place to start, because you can control that, unlike the matchmaker.

Its funny because in soloqueue I barely ever get double digit deaths because I'm not being placed with fucking retards who don't group for dragon, rift, or baron. Sure I die a lot in my normals but I also do a fucking lot, Last game I got 3 dragon 2 infernos, rift hearld, first tower for our team, baron and I did the most damage on the team and my team still fucking lost because our zed never grouped, my twitch did no fucking damage and I couldn't carry their dumpy fucking asses. I shouldn't have to play hyper meta shit or my fucking mains just to stand a god damn chance of winning in normals. Put me with people who are my fucking ELO and don't give me fucking bronze players against golds.

VerxintMay 25, 20171 votes

It's not your teammates fault that you die. It's your fault. The fact that you deflect everything onto your team convinces me even more that you blame external factors for your losses but take the credit for your wins, leading you to believe that everything is rigged against you because, in your mind, you only lose when the match is unfair, despite the fact that you probably have wins from matches being unfair in your favor.

Besides, since you seem to like distilling things to simple cases, you have no right to complain about anything until you stop dying so much. If you die that much consistently, you are doing something wrong that you can control. You cannot control other people and you cannot control the matchmaker. Your losses and your deaths are your fault.

La Belle SauvageMay 25, 20171 votes

That's the issue with all communication Kam, the less clear people are when communicating, increases the opportunity for multiple interpretation.

YoungFarmerMay 25, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Considering every single game has a winner and a loser, your title is objectivley false.

Tell me how thats fair. My team is fucking bronze, theirs is gold.

VerxintMay 25, 20173 votes

Statistically, over a sample of games you will have as many mismatched in your favor as in the enemy favor. However, your cognitive bias will attribute your victories to your own skilllzz and your losses to the matchmaker being unfair, so you'll think it's all the matchmakers fault you lose.

IncognonymousMay 25, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Statistically, over a sample of games you will have as many mismatched in your favor as in the enemy favor. However, your cognitive bias will attribute your victories to your own skilllzz and your losses to the matchmaker being unfair, so you'll think it's all the matchmakers fault you lose.

For all we know the matchmaking algorithms skewer statistical distributions. That is literally the point of matchmaking-- otherwise it would be random.

And "over a sample of games" has to be the weakest defense of Large Numbers I've ever heard. Is it 10 games, as placements would have you believe? 100? 1000? Who can say? All that can be said, is that Riot is continuously adding new variables which have the effect of pushing that "large" number further and further away from realistically reaching for the average person in a season.

VerxintMay 25, 20171 votes

The matchmaker tries to make a game with a 50% chance of winning. However, it focuses more on fast games in normals, and normal and ranked MMR are separate so someone who doesn't play normals a lot will not be accurately represented.

My only point with the statistics is that if he plays enough games, the amount where it's mismatched against him should equal the amount mismatched in his favor. But none of that really matters. The bottom line is that if you improve at the game, you will win more than 50% and your MMR will go up, normal or ranked.

Since every game mismatched against him is mismatched in favor or someone else, the statement that normals are unwinnable and always imbalanced is simply wrong. It's simply impossible for every single normal game to always be rigged unfavorably for everyone, and unless he has unimaginably bad luck, he is going to get games rigged in his favor. Like I said, he's likely to only remember the mismatched games when he loses, because nobody wants to admit they only won because the match was rigged in their favor, but it's easy to complain about losing because the match is rigged against you.

IncognonymousMay 25, 20171 votes

{quoted}

The matchmaker tries to make a game with a 50% chance of winning. However, it focuses more on fast games in normals, and normal and ranked MMR are separate so someone who doesn't play normals a lot will not be accurately represented.

That's how most matchmakers work-- StarCraft for instance. I have never heard confirmation from Riot that matchmaking focuses on a 50% winrate.

I've heard the MMR argument before, and while I do believe MMR should be universal across queues, I've never ACTUALLY seen someone mismatched who DIDN'T have enough games in that MMR to be placed above where he got matched. What I mean is, yes Normals operate off a different MMR, but this defense doesn't work if those players actually have enough games in normals to be placed accordingly. Which they usually do.

The real problem is that this is a team game using a numbers system that rates individuals. I digress. It's obvious the OP was using hyperbole to get his point across. It doesn't mean his point isn't valid.

VerxintMay 25, 20171 votes

I don't have a link but I believe Riot did say that the matchmaker tries to make a 50% winrate, which everyone promptly misinterpreted as the matchmaker giving you rigged matches so that you can't have more than 50% winrate, completely misunderstanding how statistics work.

You can't have MMR be the same across all queues, because then either people could get ranked MMR by playing blind pick normals, which is unfair, or people would be able to play normals without the matchmaker tracking changes in their skill, which would lead to the same or more imbalanced matches. Perhaps something where your normal MMR drifts towards your ranked MMR if you don't play normals for a long time, but even that has problems: many people don't want to play normals as seriously as ranked or want to use normals to try new builds and champions.

I still consider his point invalid because if you are losing 80% of your games, it's your fault, not the matchmaker's fault.

IncognonymousMay 25, 20171 votes

You can't have MMR be the same across all queues, because then either people could get ranked MMR by playing blind pick normals, which is unfair, or people would be able to play normals without the matchmaker tracking changes in their skill, which would lead to the same or more imbalanced matches. Perhaps something where your normal MMR drifts towards your ranked MMR if you don't play normals for a long time, but even that has problems: many people don't want to play normals as seriously as ranked or want to use normals to try new builds and champions.

How is it unfair? Placements are unfair. 10 games is not enough to accurately place you. If it worked off your normal MMR, you would already enter Ranked with some basis of accurate placement ie your actual performance in a PVP setting.

"Seriousness" is not an excuse. Granted, new builds and champs are, to an extent, but this game is not mechanically hard, and it's not particularly suited to min/max either until you reach high echelons. That's not to say you perform as well on new champs as standbys, but per your role you should already have a decent idea of what is expected, regardless of who you're playing. Decision making is the true onus of LoL, and your decision making will not change from Normals to Ranked.

VerxintMay 25, 20171 votes

The first situation is unfair because you should not be able to gain ranked MMR from playing normals. Placements are a separate issue and admittedly a dumb way to do things, but if you are placed wrong you will get to the rank you deserve. Having your starting point based on normal mmr could work, but literally combining the MMR will make more problems than it solves. Why would I queue for rank if blind pick normals affect my ranked mmr after placements?

Second, if I don't want to play ranked on a given day, my rank should not be punished for my performance when I don't want to play ranked. Sometimes I do setups that I would never do in ranked because they aren't optimal, but they're fun. Sometimes I try crazy things. Sometimes I just want to play ham and make dumb descisions. I should not get punished for this, and I shouldn't be harming other people's rank because I'm taking that match less seriously. Normals exist separately so that you aren't forced to worry about your rank every game. Combining the queues would lead to more rage and more poorly balanced normal and ranked matches.

IncognonymousMay 25, 20171 votes

{quoted}

The first situation is unfair because you should not be able to gain ranked MMR from playing normals. Placements are a separate issue and admittedly a dumb way to do things, but if you are placed wrong you will get to the rank you deserve. Having your starting point based on normal mmr could work, but literally combining the MMR will make more problems than it solves. Why would I queue for rank if blind pick normals affect my ranked mmr after placements?

Second, if I don't want to play ranked on a given day, my rank should not be punished for my performance when I don't want to play ranked. Sometimes I do setups that I would never do in ranked because they aren't optimal, but they're fun. Sometimes I try crazy things. Sometimes I just want to play ham and make dumb descisions. I should not get punished for this, and I shouldn't be harming other people's rank because I'm taking that match less seriously. Normals exist separately so that you aren't forced to worry about your rank every game. Combining the queues would lead to more rage and more poorly balanced normal and ranked matches.

In my scenario, it's not "Ranked MMR" or "Normals MMR", it simply IS MMR. And yes, if you play enough, you will eventually get put where you belong, but we don't actually know how many games that is. As I said, Large Numbers certainly accounts for extenuating circumstances, but perhaps that isn't the best solution if accurate placement is greater than the average number of games a given player will play per season.

Well, technically, you are still ruining 9 other peoples' games by "playing ham and making dumb decisions." This is not a defense. The reality is that PVP is PVP, and that the mindset surrounding normals should change as opposed to the exception that its "only normals." Merging MMRs would certainly have that effect, as the stakes would now be higher.

EDIT: And there is a compromise-- use Normals MMR as Ranked placement, but allow for differentiation of the two after like 10 games or whatever. Or, continue to use Ranked MMR to matchmake Normals game, but not the inverse. That way, even if you're playing Normals, what will determine matchmaking is your Ranked placement. It would prevent disparities as the OP describes without necessarily having Normals play reflect poorly on Ranked MMR.

VerxintMay 25, 20171 votes

If it's just MMR, why are there different queues?

The problem is that combining the MMR into one has 3 ways to do it

Remove all queues besides ranked. If this is the case, where do I go to play Leona/Renekton bot with my friends, or to try Jhin for the first time? I'm going to be put against people playing to win and I'm going to impact the ranking of other people trying to win. You can't just remove normals altogether, since the beginning of online games there has always been a ladder and non-ladder queue.
Have all queues affect the same MMR If this happens, why would I ever play ranked draft pick when I can play normal blind pick with no bans and mirror matchups and still get MMR that counts for ranked? And on the flipside, why should I be forced to perform better in normal games I use for practice because I do better in ranked games I play to win?
Have normal queues not affect MMR at all This would cause just as many mismatched games because people who play mostly normals will not be accurately matched based on their skill level - they would have to play ranked matches in order to get their MMR to change. This means MMR would no longer reflect skill for non-ranked games and as a result, have more mismatched normals.

The idea that you should treat every game like a ranked game is flawed - you simply cant. If I'm playing a new champion, I will take risks I wouldn't usually take because that's how you learn your limits - you try and fail. Why should my rank be impacted when I don't want it to be? If you think it's hard to rank now, imagine having people be forced to play new things in ranked. It's annoying enough when someone does it willingly, and if it was forced, it would happen way more often.

Like I said, since the beginning of online PvP games there have been casual and ladder queues because of this exact paradigm - you can't force people to play for rank when they don't want to. You also stifle innovation and new strategies if there isn't a non ranked queue because people will mostly play what is safe instead of trying new things. And seriousness is a valid argument, ranked is not taken the same as normals, and you shouldn't force people who want to win at all costs to lose rank because they have to play with people who have different priorities. The idea that everyone should treat normal like ranked is inherently flawed because there has to be some place where you don't treat it like ranked.

IncognonymousMay 25, 20171 votes

There are constructive ways to differentiate normals and ranked even with a merged MMR. One of those things could be the use of "new" champs. Buy a champ? Play it in normals a set amount of games before you can unlock it for Ranked. It's a small difference in the queue, but its something that is asked for LIT.ER.ALLY every time a new champ is released.

And I wouldn't even go so far as to say that you can't relax a little in normals-- that wasn't my point, my point was, it's a PVP game with 9 other people in it. You want to play Renekton-Leona bot, that's fine, but you know what? You have no ground to stand on IF you feed your ass off. You really SHOULDN'T, as I said, the big determination of performance is decision making. Presuming you understand the responsibilities a la the meta.

"Innovation" means very little in a game as harshly policed as LoL. Riot has long since given up the façade of not enforcing a meta. The game has changed very little in the past six years I've played, and that static meta has come at the cost of a dozen playstyles which were innovative at the time, but shot down by Riot.

VerxintMay 25, 20171 votes

Play it in normals a set amount of games before you can unlock it for Ranked. It's a small difference in the queue, but its something that is asked for LIT.ER.ALLY every time a new champ is released.

People want this because normal and ranked are separate. They want this feature literally BECAUSE normal and ranked MMR are separate and they don't like their ranked MMR being hurt because someone played a new champ. Whats the point of being forced to play a champ in normals before ranked if they're the same MMR? Your failure is going to impact your rank either way. Whenever I've played a new champ in normals and had a horrible performance, when I apologize my team usually says "Well, it is normals, that's what they're for". If you make the MMR the same, normals aren't any different from ranked except by name, and the entire idea of using them to learn is moot.

You have no ground to stand on IF you feed your ass off. You really SHOULDN'T, as I said, the big determination of performance is decision making.

If you think I'm saying it okay to feed my ass off, that's not what I'm saying. However, playing Leona/Renekton bot I am a lot more likely to make mistakes or do bad things because the lane requires constant risk taking, something I don't want to do in a game where my rank is on the line, because I know I might fail horribly and feed my ass off. If I do that, I apologize to the people in game and the usual response is "well its a normal". You can forgive someone for feeding on a gimmicky strat in normals, but it's a lot harder when rank is on the line. What you're proposing is that if I want to play Leona/Renekton and risk feeding my ass off, other people's rank should be impacted because I played something stupid. As far as I can tell, you're basically saying there should be no game mode that doesn't affect your ranked MMR, which is an absolutely horrible idea.

"Innovation" means very little in a game as harshly policed as LoL.

That's why we see stuff like Ziggs ADC pop up out of nowhere, because there is no innovation in this game... Even though riot polices the game, innovation still exists and new builds and comps appear all the time. Besides, even without any innovating, people need somewhere to learn without having their rank punished, just like you say above, they should play new champs in normals and not ranked.

YoungFarmerMay 25, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Statistically, over a sample of games you will have as many mismatched in your favor as in the enemy favor. However, your cognitive bias will attribute your victories to your own skilllzz and your losses to the matchmaker being unfair, so you'll think it's all the matchmakers fault you lose.

Dude I don't care what you say, bronze team vs gold team is fucking unfair. No matter how you put it. Its like putting house league hockey players against REP ones. There is a a large skill gap between the two which makes the game unfair. Unbalanced. And significantly harder to win.

VerxintMay 25, 20171 votes

My point is that this is not happening every game, or if it is, it's because your MMR is high enough to even out the match. Do you really think there's some coordinated effort to always give you an unfair game? Because it's literally impossible for every normal game to always be unwinnable because one team always wins.

There's only one consistent thing in your games, and that's you. If you're consistently on the losing team, the most likely reason is you, not the matchmaker.

YoungFarmerMay 25, 20171 votes

{quoted}

My point is that this is not happening every game, or if it is, it's because your MMR is high enough to even out the match. Do you really think there's some coordinated effort to always give you an unfair game? Because it's literally impossible for every normal game to always be unwinnable because one team always wins.

There's only one consistent thing in your games, and that's you. If you're consistently on the losing team, the most likely reason is you, not the matchmaker.

Stop dodging, you can see in the photo that those teams arn't fucking balanced. Its in the mother fucking photo. my team silver, and bronzes and me vs. diamond golds and 2 silver. That isn't fair. No one thinks it is except you.

VerxintMay 25, 20171 votes

I'm not dodging, you're the one whos dodging because you think a single screenshot absolves you of any and all responsibility. You literally say "I don't care about anything relating to how the matchmaker works or statistics or my own performance because THIS ONE GAME is unfair to me"

You have double digit deaths in almost every game on your match history. Based on what your op.gg shows, and your anecdotal claims, my guess is that your normal MMR is higher than you deserve somehow, and the matchmaker is including your inflated MMR in the average it uses to match the games. Since you're not performing up to your MMR, the games are mostly a loss.

Keep in mind that the rank like Diamond or Gold does not directly correlate to MMR (I won't defend why, but that is how it works), and that website's "skill rating" is only an estimate and not the actual data the matchmaker uses.

La Belle SauvageMay 25, 20171 votes

Exactly.

OtterlyLostMay 25, 20171 votes

I really feel like they should have Ranked and Normal MMR be the same... Specifically make your Normal MMR the same as your ranked. What harm would this cause aside from preventing stuff like this from happening? For a solid month when I first started my climb, I was given the rank Bronze 5 despite winning 8 out of 10 of my games and carrying most of them. So in ranked, I was playing against teams that were ridiculously easy to destroy but I'd jump into a normal game and get pitted against low Golds, sometimes even high gold to low plat. There was that much of a discrepancy between my normal MMR and my Ranked MMR and it was baffling and ridiculous. I shouldn't have to be try harding in my norms just to win and I shouldn't just get to jerk off and fuck around in my ranked. Combine the fucking MMR already. :/

YoungFarmerMay 25, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I really feel like they should have Ranked and Normal MMR be the same... Specifically make your Normal MMR the same as your ranked. What harm would this cause aside from preventing stuff like this from happening? For a solid month when I first started my climb, I was given the rank Bronze 5 despite winning 8 out of 10 of my games and carrying most of them. So in ranked, I was playing against teams that were ridiculously easy to destroy but I'd jump into a normal game and get pitted against low Golds, sometimes even high gold to low plat. There was that much of a discrepancy between my normal MMR and my Ranked MMR and it was baffling and ridiculous. I shouldn't have to be try harding in my norms just to win and I should just get to jerk off and fuck around in my ranked. Combine the fucking MMR already. :/

exactly how am I supposed to practice champs for ranked when I play with and against plats in ranked and play with bronze players against gold players in normals.