@Riot, please bring back Oracles to Summoner's Rift.

Canastus·Mar 6, 2014·9 votes·3,028 views

I feel the current vision system is pretty lackluster when it comes down to dealing with stealthed champions, especially assassins. The limitation of pink wards and their blatant visibility have crippled counter-mechanics against those champions severely.

As a midlaner it's impossible to ward both sides of your lane with pinks, neither can you secure vision in every single brush since you're restricted to having only one pink per champion. The sweeper-trinket is more or less useless against stealth-junglers since their ganks are extremely unpredictable. It gets even worse once said stealth champion is fed, from that moment on you're dead the second you encounter one.

So where's the counterplay which you value so much? Because I don't see it.

28 Comments

cleedudeMar 7, 20144 votes

The problem is there is no counter to the invisible champs. Even if everyone gets a vision ward, those remain visible and they get taken out by any decent support. Leaves us with wasted gold, and still shrooms and jack in the boxes all over with... drumroll... no counter.

The7thKingMar 7, 20142 votes

Teemo Shaco Evelynn Twitch Rengar I HEAR THEM LAUGHING AT US BECAUSE WE DONT HAVE ORACLES! help us rito plz

exec3Mar 7, 20144 votes

To me Oracle's felt like a crutch to justify broken stealth mechanics and a broken ward system. Is the new system perfect? Hell no. But it's a step in the right direction and there are already plans in the works to fix a lot of the issues the new system has brought such as Xypherous hinting that Teemo's shrooms will be getting a remake to add actual gameplay.

GorbacheMar 6, 20143 votes

The reason you don't like is exactly the reason why they removed oracles. Now those champions have the advantage of having a stealth component. Before, especially in pro matches, you wouldn't play anybody with stealth because it was completely counter-played. There is counterplay right now, just not "I see it because of my pink wards I have everywhere.

As a mid it changes how you need to play, but not much more than if you play against a Leblanc, you still change how you play because you can be zero'ed down to 0 pretty fast. (or other scenarios that require you to change how you play depending on your opponent).

RoaranorMar 6, 20141 votes

Pretty much this. Instead of seeing it as a lack of counter-play for stealth champs, see it for how it was intended, an opening for counter-play against vision for those particular champs.

GriftrixMar 7, 20146 votes

Isn't the range where Evelyn is visible to champions less than the range oracles reveals stealth? You can double check me on that, but I'm pretty sure I heard someone say that.

Also, place some green wards at the jungle camps, then you can see Eve as she's coming and going.

ModCaptainMårvelousMar 7, 20145 votes

Yes. However, I think the bigger problem is invisible traps. Teemo's the only egregious offender on this point, what with Shaco's traps having a lifespan about one tenth of Teemo's. Evelynn is irritating but trying to clear out Teemo's traps will leave you either broke or pulling your hair out.

GriftrixMar 7, 20146 votes

Yeah, but red trinket is free, and disables the traps and reveals them. I can honestly say I've avoided more traps with red trinket than I did with not buying oracles cause it was 400 gold.

ModCaptainMårvelousMar 7, 20145 votes

Hm. I haven't noticed it disable traps as I usually just destroy them instead of walking over them ala item 3187 . I will say the main problem is that Teemo can place down shrooms a LOT faster than item 3341 comes off CD (Love putting items in these posts btw it's so great). Granted, Teemo's the only one who I have this issue with and Shaco is the only other character with traps like this.

ZalkreaiMar 8, 20141 votes

I feel like teemo is the main problem with the vision nerfs, I know that they reduced damage, but those mushrooms still pack a punch late game. If item 3341 had a lower cooldown or the shrooms didn't last 10 minutes it might be a little easier to deal with him....

exec3Mar 7, 20148 votes

To be fair red trinket is very ineffective against Shrooms because of how many Shrooms Teemo can get out there compared to how often red trinket can be used.

JackAquaMar 7, 20141 votes

Oh snap !
You show em' !

the Anarchit3chtMar 8, 20142 votes

Yeah, except that doesn't work quite as well. Teemo can place mushrooms a lot faster than you can. And unless you saw him place the mushroom, it's a guessing game. When you end a team fight and step on one of those land mines and survive with like 10 hp, it's a bit of a daunting task to determine where he might have hidden his shroom this time. You only get one guess, one shot. If you miss it, not only will you probably step on his other shroom, but you also lose the CD to do more important things such as disable wards.

If the cd was quicker on the red trinket it would help the shrooms, but you can't really do that without also changing the cool down of the yellow trinket, otherwise in a duo-bot lane, the person with the red-trinket(if only one bought them which is pretty common for early game) will have mad ward control over the other. That being said, I think this is something A LOT of people forget... you can upgrade trinkets. It doesn't help anywhere near to enough to handle the fungus problem, but it helps.

Hell, reading the Sweeping Lens it aparently summons a small drone to scan the area. Why not make the effect the same, but apply around you in a circle just like oracles, but no where near as long? With it having a cool-down, I don't think it would a problem at all if it only lasted like the 6 seconds that it does. That is more than enough to make your way out of the enemy jungle unscathed by these abhorrent things.

ZalkreaiMar 6, 20142 votes

The "pink wards everywhere" issue was resolved when they put the 5 per team limitations on them and made them visible. I don't think the op is asking for that to change, they just want oracle's elixir back.

Oracles was a good item it had a time limit, and wasn't as direct a counter to invisible champs as pinks were. As it was, in most games only one person bought oracles and that was the support and that in no way majorly crippled any one stealth champ.

The problem now is the passive buff that riot has given stealth based champions Teemo anyone?

The issue with sweepers is that they don't last long enough to take out more than one ward or a couple of shrooms at best with the upgrade. Without oracles, a lot of teams are at the complete mercy of any stealth champ. If elixir was brought back, I don't forsee more than the support or maybe mid, buying it on a regular basis, which in all honesty won't hurt stealth mains too bad, and will give people a way to counter what has become a very frustrating issue.

GorbacheMar 7, 20142 votes

They reduced mushroom damage to compensate for the fact that you'll get hit more than before

Oracle does what I said though, it makes stealth completely useless in the enemy team.

ZalkreaiMar 8, 20142 votes

I disagree, oracles does not make stealth completely useless, it allows for effective counter play.

Take Evelyn for example, she has a range on her stealth that is granted slightly larger than the old oracles range, yet it doesn't ruin her ganking effectiveness or otherwise stealthy qualities. Getting oracles back in the old days was effectively adding Eve's sight range to other champions.

That being said, oracles sight range was still relatively small, about the same size as a basic sweeping trinket, and did not cripple any stealth champ, just made assignations a bit more tricky.

Maybe there can be a compromise here, like allowing the oracles effect on an upgraded trinket last a little longer, for more shroom sweeping effectiveness, and also allowing for a little more security against an enemy that you can't see.

MrRadoMar 7, 20142 votes

Unranked, but I do have some opinions based on observation.

I don't want to see Oracles in any of its original incarnations. What I'd prefer instead is just a few additional vision options such as the Lightbringer from non-SR maps (tweaked stats if necessary).

Point is, map roaming and just constantly clearing wards is not only boring, but the power from an Oracles purchase (especially if it doesn't fade on death) is pretty ridiculous with little effort.

That said, there are clear issues with some champions. The changes I would make would be....

reduce green wards per champ to 2x
give green wards a small "see invis" radius of about 25%
- so it can see stealth champs, but only if they pass very close to it
increase health of pinks to 8 hits, and expand range by 25%
- need more options to defend them
introduce additional vision items (Lightbringer) and invent "fogging" items

I've always felt that the vision and stealth part of matches should have plenty more options for tactical decisions beyond champion picks and standard wards but also in form of itemization.

Niche champion design and current champion redesign/tweaking could help as well.

edit - I do like trinkets as well. How about a trinket that made you invisible to all wards/sight effects for 3 seconds? BUSH JUKES AHOY!

Doug FordMar 8, 20142 votes

I get what Riot is trying to do with the vision changes, and they have a lot of valid reasons to do it.

However, I am not at all satisfied with the Red Trinket. It seems to have been created with the mindset of clearing wards rather than being effective against all other invisible things on the map. The Red Trinket does its intended job effectively, it is good at clearing out a ward or two in a valuable area without being able to seek out and destroy every ward on the map like Oracles Elixir used to.

Now that Shacos, Teemo shrooms, large cats and smelly rats have domain over the rift, the Red Trinket just isn't able to deal with them effectively.

I've been thinking of a new Oracles-esque item, and while I can't come up with a creative name, (Oracles tonic? I'm bad at this) duration, or a price for it here's my idea on its function:

Grants vision of nearby invisible enemy traps and champions
DOES NOT grant vision of nearby enemy sight wards

I don't know if this has already been talked about, but personally I'd spend some extra gold to see that Shaco that just avoided death with his Q, or the Rengar that might just be sneaking to the back lines. Not to mention the peace of mind of walking through my jungle without fear of being maimed by mushrooms.

I'd love to hear your feedback, or revisions on this.

RyuunagaMar 7, 20141 votes

How about you build hextech sweeper or lightbringer?

CanastusMar 7, 20142 votes

Please read the title of the thread again.

Those items are not available on Summoner's Rift.

LexCorMar 8, 20141 votes

Please god no. Stealth was absolutely useless when Oracle's was around in any major capacity.

Your concerns are also pretty easy to work around. Stealth junglers fall off much harder than a lot of their counterparts, and stealth warding a fringe camp will help you keep an eye on them to gauge risk of being ganked.

Sweeper is excellent, especially with the upgrade. There can't be any confusion here. It's an investment that can help suppress an enemy stealth champion's advantage. It protects against the two trap champions and gives you a reveal for stealth assassin players for a healthy portion of time.

It sounds like you've been camped and that's frustrating you. Learn to adapt. Play defensively, hug your turrets, have your allies shove without risk of jungler presence, etc...

The7thKingMar 8, 20143 votes

and ive heard this a millon times, and you know what, unless youve had it happen to you, i think your nuts

and not true, sweeper is TERRIBLE, i liked just using pinks so i can tell if im not going ot be hit or anything, i HATE having a teemo or eve come out of nowhere WITH regular wards mind you and assassinate me

Remlap1223Mar 8, 20141 votes

I wish they reintroduced Elixir of Agility, simply because it's extremely helpful to ADCs once you complete your build (or just can't buy anything else at the time). Oracle's elixir, however, made playing stealth champions useless, simply because they could always be targeted, and stealth champions are meant to be able to disappear due to their natural squishiness. Let me show you how many champions would be absolutely useless if Oracle's came back into the game: Akali Evelynn Khazix Rengar Shaco Talon Teemo Twitch MonkeyKing Zed . That's quite a bit of Olafing from just one item...

OaklenMar 8, 20142 votes

Akali Evelynn Khazix Shaco Talon Vayne MonkeyKing Look at that, a bunch of anti-fun assassins, with little counter play. I see why it's a strong 50/50 split on bringing it back and losing it.

LoLoLegendsMar 8, 20141 votes

Rather than bring back oracles, I'd love to see them add a passive effect to ruby sightstone that created a true sight radius around the champ that bought it. Not a big one, say 200-300 units or about the size of a melee auto attack range.

Just something that reveals wards when you walk over them, and (if you have good reflexes) it's work for shrooms too. Sweepers would still be needed for checking at range, but the RS passive would help clear the ones you walk right over.

But no, I don't think they should increase counter play against Eve (and to a lesser extent Twitch, Vayne, Rango, Kha, Akali, etc). Pink wards are cheap, and stealth (as currently implemented) is really not that OP.

The7thKingMar 9, 20141 votes

kha cant do crap for damage, what are you whining about with him? hes dead already

CanastusJun 22, 20141 votes

Bump, Oracle's needs to return. The current stealth champions are impossible to deal with as long as the options to shut them down are so massively limited.