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Previous Post: Tribunal - CALLING ON YOU, RIOT LYTE

Mike Teavee··2 votes·719 views

So I'd like to take a second to discuss the game I just had. Long story short: In champ select, Aatrox (4th pick) wanted jungle. First pick locked in jungle and I, ADC. Third and fourth pick come. Volibear locks in after having called top. Fourth pick sits on Aatrox until the timer runs out. Fifth and final pick takes Twisted Fate. After their picks, I asked who was my support. I didn't care as long as we worked together.

No one answered.

We get into game and Aatrox goes mid and takes TF's lane. They duo mid. I do fine bot. I keep up in CS with Graves and I don't die at all in lane. Aatrox, having already died 4 times just to Nidalee, decides he wants to come bot.

He comes bot (no passive) and instantly dies to Graves. The lane that I had worked hard to maintain was ruined. Not only that, but he called our Vi "R%%%%%ed", "A fucking dumbassssss" and many other offensive terms, in turn, aggravating her and causing a conflict.

Graves took the kill, bought an Infinity Edge. Aatrox, 5 deaths now at around 13 minutes, decides he wants to come bot again (no passive). Dies instantly. This legitimately happens four more times during my laning phase.

We group and try and fight. Graves is melting our team but I still manage to outplay and kite him with Voli's help. Aatrox, meanwhile, is bot lane pushing a lane with no tower (no objective to get). Instead of grouping and/or warding and extending with vision, he just extends and dies. Then he does it again. And again. And again. And not once did he get a single objective. And the whole time, the enemy team is hammering away at our base and pushing through our siege defense.

Volibear and I are trying. Vi is arguing which ultimately leads to her getting caught an abhorrent amount of times, and TF is occasionally flaming but it was understandable because he was legitimately being trolled and picked on (though flaming, in no way, is okay). But I empathized. I'm the type of player that would rather be positive or not speak at all. So I end up muting Vi and Aatrox. Apparently, when Aatrox kept overextending and dying repeatedly (he was intentionally feeding), he would say things such as "lol" to further insult the situation.

Fast forward to the end - we ask the enemy team to report Aatrox for the obvious intentional feed. Graves - who got a free game stemming from Aatrox being negligent - said, "Why would I report him?" then left the lobby. In the game, Graves trash talked like the best and constantly spammed his emotes because he knew he had been handed a game for free. And then he exhibits bad sportsmanship and arrogance because he got fed off of a 1/19 Aatrox who handed his own head on a silver platter.

TL;DR: Aatrox intentionally fed. Graves was a very poor sport. Behaviour like this is NOT okay. And the Tribunal needs to be revamped and revived so that cases such as this can clean toxicity from the community. I know @RiotLyte likes to throw around numbers (which are largely marginalized and not at all accurate to the actual experience on a per-game basis) but there needs to be more done than that.

A lot of people downplay @RiotLyte for his ability to turn the other cheek and his inability to recognize the constant toxicity in 8/10 games played. Instead of throwing numbers around and using statistics to boast the community's positives, work on the weaknesses so that the structural integrity isn't breached by a foundation of rust.

I used to be one of the people that respected @Lyte for his ability to connect with the community and answer questions regarding the justice system. But now, like every reality ghost TV show, I find that he's spewing air and bragadocious fairy dust into our eyes.

This isn't a rant on @Lyte, but moreso a request for a reality to be recognized; and this fantasy of having the best community in the video game industry in nothing but a blatant fassad sheltering those who abuse the system.

11 Comments

Mike Teavee1 votes

Bump

Jubbinaut1 votes

Alright, here's my thoughts:

[{quoted}](name=Mike Teavee,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=NFkbMvTa,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-02-26T07:08:23.698+0000)

I know @RiotLyte likes to throw around numbers (which are largely marginalized and not at all accurate to the actual experience on a per-game basis) but there needs to be more done than that.

Thing is, though, those numbers are accurate to actual experiences. Think on this for a second: if only 5% of the playerbase is toxic, players will - on average - see a toxic player just about every other game (5% is 1 out of 20). That's averaged over a large pool, though, meaning there will be outliers (those who see toxic players drastically more or less often).

I think part of the problem with the way that Lyte presents his numbers is that there's rarely much context, and frankly, people are really bad at understanding statistics without that context (actually, people are really bad at understanding statistics period, but context and explanations help).

A lot of people downplay @RiotLyte for his ability to turn the other cheek and his inability to recognize the constant toxicity in 8/10 games played.

There isn't toxicity in 8/10 games, though. Personally, I see toxic players about every 3-4 games. Most of the people on my friends list can cite similar numbers. That's not to downplay your experiences, regardless of what they are, but rather to stress that your experience isn't necessarily typical, and therefore isn't - by itself - enough to judge the accuracy of the presented statistics.

This isn't a rant on @Lyte, but moreso a request for a reality to be recognized; and this fantasy of having the best community in the video game industry in nothing but a blatant fassad sheltering those who abuse the system.

I don't think anyone believes League currently has the best community. Rather, they're trying to create the best community. It's a process, and one that they're constantly at work on. Currently, they're testing positive rewards to incentivize "on-the-fence" players, along with repairing and revamping the Tribunal using what they've learned from the systems they've been using in the meantime.

As a note, because you are otherwise very well-written, I think the spelling you were looking for was "facade," rather than "fassad."

Mike Teavee1 votes

Thank you for presenting your opinion in a well-written and very informative (while not demeaning) manner. And yeah. You are right. It's facade. I seemed to have forgotten there. My bad. While I understand that his numbers are out of context a majority of the time - correct or not - I feel like his big wall of protection is the fact that he likes to throw these numbers at the opposition. He doesn't ever really seem to accurately address the situation from a non-statistical standpoint. It's almost like he turns a blind eye from the actual community and instead finds solace in the technological data presented. I just wish he would get off his cloud 9 (pun intended) and come down to earth with the rest of us to address this situation from a more "mortal" perception rather than his glorified, deified reality he seems to have constructed. SIDE NOTE: Again - I just want to say thanks for being a respectable person.

Jubbinaut1 votes

Honestly? I've read a lot of his posts, about multiple different aspects of what they're trying to do, and I'm not entirely sure he knows how to manage the approach you're after. It's something I've seen fairly often from specialists and highly educated persons. There seems to come a point where they become incapable of explaining the basics of their messages (relating to that specialty/education). And I think that's at least some of the issue, here.

There's other aspects to it as well. It's important to remember that League sees some 27 million unique daily players. It's effectively impossible to address a group or community that size without resorting to statistics about them.

And, while it's not commonly addressed from the player-side, it's also true that most of the toxicity any given player sees doesn't actually come from toxic players. Something like ~75% (I forget the actual numbers) of all the toxicity expressed in the game actually comes from players who - overall - are rated "good," and make up some ~70% of the community. If you haven't yet, I highly recommend watching his talk at the MIT Game Lab, where he does a good bit more breaking down than we usually see.

One thing I think would help with these issues, that I would love to see, is for the PB&J team to have their own Community Relations person/people - Rioters involved enough with the Justice teams to discuss what they're doing, but more focused on explaining it. I think it would help resolve quite a number of problems, ranging from your concern about what they communicate to my own concern about the way they communicate (gathering information about the justice systems is a crapshoot, with pieces of information being spat out sporadically from multiple sources on multiple sites - from the boards and reddit to Twitter - it's extremely difficult to find all the pieces of the puzzle).

And yeah. You are right. It's facade. I seemed to have forgotten there. My bad.

No worries. Personally, I'm a stickler for my own spelling and grammar, and your careful wording led me to suspect you might be as well, so I thought I'd help.

Mike Teavee1 votes

No worries. Personally, I'm a stickler for my own spelling and grammar, and your careful wording led me to suspect you might be as well, so I thought I'd help. Yeah - you definitely hit the nail on the head with that call. I confused it with the spelling for the Islamic word, meaning wicked or horrible. Entirely my bad.

Yeah I'll have to give it a look. Thanks for the link. As with the idea to introduce a specialized and more media-centric team - I really like that idea. I feel like leaving that side of the game in the dark is not the way to proceed with increasing the amount of positive interaction within the community. Though they do focus on creativity within the community and releasing specific data, I think that a more customer-specific team would benefit the company in a great and positive way. I, for one, would love to be a part or a helping hand in that.

I remember when I first started that the community was smaller and the Rioters actually responded to questions and concerns and focused more on the audience rather than promoting the game. I enjoyed that a lot more. Though the increasing size of the community prohibits interpersonal communication on a large scale, it also brings forth a new set of communal problems that I would at least like to see addressed. Gameplay and gameplay-specific concepts are constantly updated (which is reasonable) while the justice system and rewards for being a good and positive player are seemingly left in the dust. As it stands, I have around 250 teamwork honors and 200-250 honorable opponent honors. Though I know it's a percentage based reward, I still haven't gotten a ribbon. And honoring has become something of a forgotten art. Ribbons are too hard to earn and warrant no positivity as they are seemingly random and offer no beneficial byproduct.

Jubbinaut1 votes

The honor system was... kind of a test? They implemented that aspect without deciding what they were really going to do with it. Since then, they've come to some conclusions, and according to Lyte's posts on Reddit, it'll connect to the new Tribunal in the same way that the report system does. He's actually been really active on Reddit (which is a point of irritation for me, personally), talking about Leaverbuster, the new Tribunal, the current systems and more. Lots of interesting gems hidden in there.

Specifically, the new Tribunal will generate three kinds of cases to be judged. Lyte called them Negative, Neutral, and Positive, I expect due to the method of generation. Negative cases will be built as they have been, based on reported games. Positive cases will be built based on honor received (though whether it'll be total honor or honored games, I haven't heard). And there's been no statement on Neutral cases - it may be a dump category for falsely reported/honored cases, or it may be "fake" cases designed to ensure accuracy, like the old Tribunal had.

Players who have a Positive case built, and the case is judged positive by the Tribunal, are supposed to receive a reward.

They really are updating and working on things, shifting and iterating how they work - changes to case-building, changes to the chat-detection algorithms they're using now, etc. And there's a limit to how much they can communicate about those systems without leaving them wide open for abuse. But they can certainly do more than they currently are, especially in terms of gathering and synchronizing what information they do share.

Mike Teavee1 votes

Again, good points made. I'm not a Reddit user so a lot of the Q&A stuff that is had goes unnoticed by me.

I hope the tribunal is player-run again. That was always enjoyable to me, being able to personally sort out how toxicity was handled rather than having a machine report back only based on scanning derogatory terms and leaverbuster. The game that I spoke of earlier where I had to restart my PC, I actually got hit by LeaverBuster because I was gone around 5 minutes. I've never AFK'd a game in my life. But I still got hit by a system that only understands black and white concepts implemented by a developer.

Jubbinaut1 votes

Leaverbuster's basically always worked that way. The new version of it reacts more quickly (with weaker sanctions than previously), though. The "I agree" message - which is incredibly poorly worded - is really just supposed to be a "hey, this is bad" kind of thing, and only shows up the first time the new system detects a leave. It doesn't mean that you'll have any issues with LB.

Automating handling leaves is a pretty reasonable thing to do when it's such a binary state. I do think it needs more tweaking on when and how to trigger, though.

The Tribunal will definitely be player-run. I know that one of the hold-ups on its release is that some regions don't have the web-tech in place to handle it, and they want to do a world-wide roll-out. I'm looking forward to it, and hopeful that we'll see it within the next couple of months.

I've been particularly excited since hearing about the "Positive" cases, because not only will we get to help handle some of the toxic players, we'll also get to help share rewards with some of the awesome ones, too.

Mike Teavee1 votes

Bump

Linthe1 votes

One other point... this was ranked? It is pretty well established that in terms of toxicity it's ranked > normal > bots.

Not to say that you shouldn't be able to play ranked without toxicity but do be aware of that going in.

For exactly that reason, I have to be "in a mood" to want to play ranked.

Personally, I don't really see the problem with the old tribunal... mostly seemed like it was working as designed.

Mike Teavee1 votes

It was in ranked, yes. I just got out of my first game of the day today. Had a guy ban Urgot>Volibear>some other unplayed, unimportant champ. Then picked a champ, stated it was his first time ever playing said champ, and said he woke up feeling like he just wanted to troll ranked today. Then in the game, my computer acted odd. So I had to restart it and I let everyone know what was going on. I restarted it and came back about 5 minutes later and he started flaming me, rallying the enemy team to report me, and saying I was the sole cause of the loss (even though every lane but mine - prior to the DC - lost). I muted him. But apparently he got so negative that even the enemy team was agreeing to report him for negativity and not to report me given my understandable circumstances. Six straight losses with 6 games of toxicity. I didn't say a word all game other than stating that I was restarting because of lag and FPS issues

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