Instead of crying for nerfs, recognize weaknesses and learn to counter instead.

Lao Fu the Tiger··81 votes·4,739 views

Did your opponent lock in Zed?

Now introducing Annie, Urgot, Akali, Lulu ,Fiddlesticks, Kayle, Lissandra, Malzahar, Vladimir, and many more!

Locked in your mid laner as a first pick blind and the enemy thought to himself, "Hmm, they first picked a super squishy mid laner with no hard CC and no mobility for dodging my Zed mekkanicz"? Never fear! The based Rito Gods have provided you with two items item 3139 item 3157 to deal with arguably the easiest to counter assassin in the game! Uuuuuuuuuunbuhleevuble!

Don't want to build these items because they change your standard build path or you don't like buying them anyway? Then don't complain when you get assassinated.

I only use Zed here because of the most recent thread asking for a Zed nerf. It brought up great discussion, and I enjoyed everything from both sides. But ultimately, Riot has done a good job of giving Zed and others clear counterplay. Sure, they may be frustrating to lane against (and honestly, even this isn't true if you counter pick well; rarely when I pick Annie into Zed do I have a hard time managing mana or farming well, for example), but in some cases such as Zed, a strong landing phase is his biggest strength, because a Zed that falls behind generally stays behind. He's a great early and mid game champion and a weaker late game champion.

I'm on a phone so formatting and content are probably lacking, and I'll edit later.

But anyway. Before demanding nerfs, I ask you simply consider counterplaying the enemy. In fact, play that champ you struggle against. Then you can better understand exactly what their strengths and weaknesses are first hand :)

The goal here is ultimately to help people realize that counter-picking and counter-building are two vitally important aspects of League. Counter-picking may not have as much impact in lower elos, but it is still an important concept.

100 Comments

CarlFromAbove92 votes

"Rock is OP, Paper is fine"-Scissors

Lao Fu the Tiger21 votes

{quoted}

"Rock is OP, Paper is fine"-Scissors

This sums it up perfectly xD

Only A Soldier4 votes

{quoted}

"Rock is OP, Paper is fine"-Scissors

That is the best thing I have read in a long time. Hope you don't mind if I use it! ;P

SmknWdl2 votes

"Rock is OP, Paper is fine"-Scissors

This made my freakin day XD lmao

BeatzBoyFTW18 votes

Yorick disapproves.

Orangesilk2 votes

Yorick walks into a bar, there's no counter.

DeusVult16 votes

I agree with you, but I have 1 thought

The enemy picks Zed or Yasuo or Riven

you are beating them, but not by a lot because you are playing one of their counters; yet how often do you see them have to alter their build path from item 3144 + item 3134 or item 3087 or item 3134 + item 3074? Never. Regardless of who plays against them or what is built against them, these champs never have to build anything in lane in order to counter their opponents

Budupops10 votes

LeeSin main detected

NinjaToad999 votes

But then I'd have to think on how to actually play the game!

2000boxes4 votes

i once asked a riven main in one of my games why they chose to play riven and they said this exact phrase except for the but then not even mad about riven just wondering why people main her and not some other champ that has a more interesting kit like urgot or lulu

WolfChases8 votes

Well I have to agree with you that you can pick a certain champ to counter the other one, for example Zed. You can counter him with Swain, Liss, Vlad, Urgot, etc, toy can also counter him buy getting some items as u listed in your post but, the problem is that it's not only that Zed will potentially get fed in mid lane, there's also bot and top lane where Zed can roam post 6. Even if you are warding constantly, sooner or later you will get cough as ADC because well...getting QSS around lvl 6 isn't a good idea right? Buy the time Zed hits 6 as an ADC you will most likely have just Dorans, BF and finished boots/Pick axe.

Again, laning against Zed is painfull. Why? Look, he is a melee assassin with long ranged poke, easy last hit and awesome clear, and a lot of mobility which he can use to engage or escape. Let's say that mages are created to have a good push and clear while assassins are supposed to benefit from roaming mostly because their laning phase is weak, Zed doesn't have that problem because he's good at both, roaming, pushing, killing. Look at Talon for example, If he clears minions with Rake, he will get OOM soon and his AA isn't even close as good as Zed's AA (passive OP) so it's harder to lasthit as Talon, Akali, Katarina etc. Tell me how many Akali players have u seen dominating the laning phase? They are mostly getting fed by roaming to bot and why are u able to see 5/0/0 Kararina with 45 CS at 10 min mark? Because Katas laning phase isn't that great, so she got that kills on Bot lane by roaming. Zed is getting fed in laning phase and by roaming too.

I am not bitching because I barely play against Zed, I am banning him all the time but seriously. What is the purpose of playing a Mage if 1 single assassin is outpoking, outdamaging, outfarming and outpushing you?

MohawkBird4 votes

[deleted]

GorillazNtheMyst4 votes

Exactly. I basically permaban Blitzcrank and Annie not because they're impossible to deal with technically, but because their abilities are still toxic for the game. A one shot AOE stun and a one shot hook-line-and-sinker, neither of which can REALLY be countered, doesn't seem fun to play against to me.

Philbo Baggins1 votes

{quoted}

Exactly. I basically permaban Blitzcrank and Annie not because they're impossible to deal with technically, but because their abilities are still toxic for the game. A one shot AOE stun and a one shot hook-line-and-sinker, neither of which can REALLY be countered, doesn't seem fun to play against to me.

Its called item 3102. Build for your situation bro.

GorillazNtheMyst2 votes

No kidding. But have you ever had a lvl 1 Banshee's Veil? DIdn't think so.

JedenVojak3 votes

Oh that's right, I forgot this was "League of who kills the most and does the most damage!"

I mean, huge AOE, CC, utility, objective control, none of those things matter whatsoever! The only thing that matters is being able to go in, kill a singe target and get out right? After all the team who has the most kills in the end wins every game automatically!

...wait a minute...

no actually that's completely wrong.

Seriously dude, I survived lane against Zed with Kassadin, you know, that guy who gets countered hard by AD mids? I didn't kill him even once during the laning phase either! I just concentrated on farming, buiding armor items early and not feeding zed like an idiot, and guess what? Zed didn't do much at all during the game since he basically just had average farm, and no big items and we won!

Takeuchi 172 votes

i feel like most people who complain and fail at laning against a zed just make stupid mistakes. if you're low health and you think hes gonna ult you and kill you under turret then back off heal and go back to lane, no problem with that. just poke and bully him its really not that hard, gank him after he just used his shadow. hes a melee champion that can easily miss his abilities and his cooldowns and energy costs are significant enough to easily taken advantage of if people are smart.

i feel like most people who complain are adcs who get wrecked because their mid laner is dumb and doesnt ping mia or follow him. or mid laners who are too aggressive

i just take malzahar and theres nothing he can do. i dont even need to build zhonyas, and i dont have to worry about mana because i get it back with my e and i just poke the hell outta him with my q and the voidlings.

Pæan8 votes

IKR?! Ever since I've started using pink-wards I can dodge those pesky Nid spears

Ratbert7 votes

Those items counter his ult, now try to counter his blinks. Sure you won't die, but if zed doesn't, does that mean he's countered?

MićaĆomlaDJ4 votes

But who said you ever had to kill him? I don't know in which world you live in, but since when are squishy mages supposed to be abel to 1v1 assassins?

Ratbert3 votes

So even late game, where you need to catch someone with two blinks, it's ok for no team without chain hard cc to get stomped on by zed. It is incredibly hard without targetted hard cc to catch people like zed. Even in mid game, since you rushed qss or zhonyas to beat his ult, you lack the same raw damage zed has and get poked down because you have resources to manage.

In what world are squishy mages supposed to need to manage mana to be able to attempt to keep up while not being able to build mana items without dying trying?

A Drowned Fish1 votes

Two situational blinks. Plus with long cast times.

Ratbert2 votes

One blink depends on there being a target, one needs to be casted a second time. Both situations are easy to set up. His cast times aren't that long actually, but I can't verify this.

NinjaFifer2 votes

You know what squishy mages are supposed to do? Push lanes and farm. You know what Zed does just as well? Push lanes and farm. So when Zed can push and farm just as well if not better than most mages, WITHOUT ANY WORRY FOR RESOURCES, and still have an outstanding 1v1, it doesn't matter what world you live in... it's not okay.

The only thing I really think needs nerfing on Zed is his secondary target damage on his skillshot. His waveclear and poke without resources is his problem, so taking away some of that damage on any targets after the first would really alleviate that.

A Drowned Fish1 votes

It already does...

NinjaFifer1 votes

Even more. Yeah, I already know that it does reduced damage, but it's still clearing waves like a mage.

Mecha MaIphite1 votes

Yes, becuase an assassin who can't assassinate anyone is like a tank who dies in one hit.

Ratbert1 votes

But to be an assassin is a risky task, where is the risk in two blinks? The damage is fine, but the blinks are not.

Mecha MaIphite1 votes

Zed is known to be one of the lowest reward assassins and that really shows once it hits late-game. Other assassins have AoE, resets, or even CC that makes them very strong in teamfights. Zed can kill one person if he is successful. Otherwise, he is limited to poking with his abilities and autoattacking anything that comes near him.

Ratbert1 votes

Zed has two short radius aoe skills that can pretty much affect anyone within ~800 range of him. Most assassins use their aoe not to kill, but to damage, as zed uses his non ult skills to poke. Only difference is zed has range with his poke.

there are plenty of non aoe oriented assassins like Shaco Teemo Akali Evelynn Fizz Leblanc

Mecha MaIphite4 votes

Shaco - early game champion Teemo - assassin wat Akali - resets + sustain Evelynn - kind of weak in general Fizz - more of a bruiser nowadays, but still has more CC than zed + more untargetability Leblanc - also falls off late-game

Ratbert1 votes

fizz has more cc tied to a skill shot ult and doesn't have any blinks. teeto is probably the closest to an actual assassin really.

So basically, late game, which assassins are designed to prevent from happening, are assassins biggest counter. But oh wait, since zed stomps early game, the enemy's late game is just as bad. late game advantage is almost nullified by a gold lead.

Mecha MaIphite1 votes

Teemo... assassin... okay, I'm not even going to try to argue with you on that.

Zed's assassination is still one of the most counterable ones, considering it takes 2.5 seconds to dish out all of its damage. Even without his ult, his combo is pretty slow. If an assassin can't kill someone important, he's useless. Doesn't matter if he's safe or not.

Ratbert1 votes

teemo's classified as a marksman with assassin secondary. Besides, he hides to kill people stealthily, like an actual assassin. see templar assassin

Zed's assassination is no less counterable than any other assassin though, most need about 1 second to unload most of their damage and none of them get a random bonus multiplier like zed does except fizz (but you don't consider him an assassin) where all of anyone's damage is multiplied by 1.5.

Mecha MaIphite1 votes

Assassins are supposed to be mobile. Teemo's movespeed buff has a giant cooldown and just isn't enough. He also doesn't have enough burst unless he is insanely fed and can kill people with a Q and an auto. He can't go for the carries in teamfights either because he does not have the tools to get past the front line.

Te difference between 1 and 2.5 seconds is huge. 2.5 seconds is enough time for anyone to pop their zhonyas, where 1 second might leave you dead if your reaction time isn't good. Also, zed's late game assassination is heavily reliant on his easily counterable ult, whereas someone like Talon can kill someone with a regular rotation (which q good Talon can pull out in half a second).

Ratbert1 votes

So essentially, assassins are mobile bursters with short cooldowns?

I'm fairly certain one second is enough even at 150 ping, with average reaction times of about 0.3 seconds. How hard is it to push one key? You'll still face tank a ton of damage if you wait 1-2 seconds vs zed, enough to kill squishies.

Zed is hardly reliant on his "easily" counterable ult, his passive props him up by dealing 10% max hp magic?? damage on an auto+a late game 25% ad boost. Items like botrk mean he can also excel by auto attacking and his high base and ratio poke means he can still be a pain to deal with. Someone like talon actually runs the risk of dying if he messes up via no blink outs, and only deals comparable damage to zed if zed misses his shit.

If zhonyas and mercurials are such massive counters, why then, is anyone with delayed damage (everyone) or cc reliance played at all?

Mecha MaIphite1 votes

Yes, assassins are mobile bursters. A movespeed buff on a year-long cooldown is not mobility. There's a big difference between an assassin and a burst mage. Teemo isn't even super-bursty.

Also, nobody "waits 1-2 seconds vs zed". If someone waits that much time against any assassin, that's more than enough time for them to burst you. In lane, this means they had a massive lagspike, and that can happen against any laner. In teamfights, it won't even matter if someone lags, because the carries will be surrounded by tanks, who will CC you the instant you go in, especially since Zed's ultimate takes a while before you become targetable again. You either have to wait at the edge of the teamfight to find an out-of-position carry which leaves your team to 4v5 for the first half of the fight, or you dive in and instantly blink out from all their peel or die, dealing maybe half of a carry's hp at most. So you can't actually pick when you go in, otherwise you risk botching your job.

Also, Talon does not deal less damage than Zed. Zed's E damage is pitiful, and his Q damage is reduced after its first target. Talon is infamous for his crazy AoE and massive scaling off of bonus AD. When Talon blinks in, his burst is instant. Only if said carry has a GA or a zhonya's, or if their tanks have godlike reaction speeds will they be able to survive. Talon also damages the rest of their team with all his AoE, potentially assassinating two carries at the same time if they clump too close. He will probably die, but he will have taken out their strongest DPS, which leaves your team with an advantage.

And Quicksilver Sash is only a moderate counter. Zhonya's, the bane of all burst champions, counters all of them. Zed in particular because literally a third of his damage applies after a 2.5 seconds wait. That's more than enough time for the laggiest player to press one button on their keyboard.

Ratbert1 votes

So then the 2.5 seconds before his ult pops isn't a disadvantage, because no one waits even 1 second anyways.

It's not a 4v5 in fights if you have poke, which zed does. It feels like you're complaining that zeds actually need to time and think about going in, like every other assassin, except they can't even deal the half of carry hp damage that zed can if you're against tanks with instant cc.

Zed deals more damage via having up to three shadows. Talon's aoe is good or even great, but won't kill anyone alone if they have any armour built. Really, his "insane ratios" are comparable to zed's depending on how many q's zed hits. His burst is not instant because there are things such as attack animations and cast times. A good flash is more than enough to dodge his rake and potentially his q. Technically, if we go for best case scenarios where carries are clumped up, zed's qs alone can deal up to 200% of his ad plus some ridiculous base to each and with his e, that's 280%. Another difference is that zed will probably NOT die and can probably get another shot of q's out or catch fleeing enemies.

Saying zed is more affected by zhonyas means nothing when zhonyas effectively reduces all mage's damages to 0 unless they have toggles or low cds. In addition, most of his ult damage is overkill anyways because of how it works. Even zed will get autos and his passive to deal some damage. Besides, if delayed damage is soooo easy to beat, why was zilean reworked?

Mecha MaIphite2 votes

Zed's combo is the slowest of almost all assassins so saying that other champs can't do the same damage in that short window of time makes no sense. Have you played assassins before?

And tanks will shrug off Talon's AoE as easily as they will shrug off Zed's Q's, but carries won't. Talon's AoE is guaranteed to do full damage to every target. Zed, on the other hand, doesn't work like that. You'll never find yourself in a situation where everything is so perfect your Q's all hit one person without passing through another target prior.

Talon's burst is instant compared to Zed's. Half of his abilities don't even come out until his shadows are both up, one which has a bit of a cast time and the other literally with a big, warning "X" that shows up before he can do anything. A good Talon can and will cancel animations by chaining abilities, with his standard combo taking 0.5 seconds (E>AA>Q>W>Hydra), and his ult only taking another half a second longer.

Also, saying a good flash can dodge Talon's rake and Q makes no sense either, because Zed's abilities are even easier to dodge. And Talon deals more damage to clumped carries as well, with just his W>R>Hydra dealing 370%. That's not even factoring in the single target damage amp from his E or his Q auto reset, which practically guarantees him a kill against any squishy who doesn't have a GA.

Reaction time is also a factor with Zhonya's. Most Zed's start off their combo with their ult, and seeing the shadows fly to you is more than enough time to remind you to keep a finger over your zhonya's button.

And delayed damage is easy to beat. Zilean was reworked because he was garbage, not because he was too strong.

Ratbert1 votes

Having his overkill damage activate 2.5 seconds later doesn't make his combo slow.

Talon's aoe won't hit everyone either, so i don't see where you get your guarantee. You took the best case so I did and assumed. His burst is still not instant, compared to zed or not, so can be completely blocked by a flash or zhonyas. He still has this massive indicator called "talon's walking up to you m8" or he ulted and is walking to you. Zed can just blink to you and ult. Besides, zhonyas is not a beat all, because there are downsides to stasis.

I can factor in the single target damage from zed's ult and his 10% hp damage passive, but then I realized his ult affected all non-true damage taken from any source. It's essentially an ad dfg, but much stronger and affects physical and magical damage. Zil is still garbage, but only due to circumstances.

Solaxo5 votes

You know, you have to build Zhonya components first. Before you do that, Zed will destroy you in a lane few times already. And you have to build mana regen items later. And Mercurial Scimitar protects from magic damage so it's a waste of stat AND it's very expensive, LATE game item.

Lao Fu the Tiger15 votes

{quoted}

You know, you have to build Zhonya components first. Before you do that, Zed will destroy you in a lane few times already. And you have to build mana regen items later. And Mercurial Scimitar protects from magic damage so it's a waste of stat AND it's very expensive, LATE game item.

I'll be perfectly honest, I've never had a single problem with "getting destroyed by Zed" in the laning phase whilst rushing Seeker's Armguard. Two Doran's rings provides all the mana I need for survival, and grabbing 300G isn't a problem. And again, with Annie, I've never, ever had a problem with even rushing a mana item because she makes Zed's life hell if he goes in.

People focus too much on winning lane. The game isn't about winning the lane. Against a Zed, surviving lane and farming are more important, because let's be honest, Zed's laning is strong. You won't get destroyed (a result of running OOM or being aggressive) if you farm from your tower, which is a perfectly acceptable strategy in the early game. Don't focus on winning the lane. Focus on not losing it. I promise, if you go in with this mindset, you will rarely ever "be destroyed." Seeker's is great.

As for Mercurial's, you're again a bit wrong for a few reasons.

  • Magic resist is never a wasted stat. It is, however, an early game loss in damage. SOMEBODY on their team is probably bound to do magic damage (unless their team composition sucks). Since most CC abilities are magic damage, MR on an item that cleanses CC is even better. FWIW, Zed's passive is magic damage, so it does negate a little of his burst.
  • It gives the highest base AD for an item in the game once it's built. Yes, the path itself is no fun, but it works fine for an ADC.

Is a "wasted stat" in the early game a bad decision to buy if it has the potential to does save your life and completely negate an ENTIRE champion and builds into one of the STRONGEST late game items?

BakedLotion7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lao Fu the Tiger,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=LKIAbRZi,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2015-04-13T19:17:58.045+0000)

Is a "wasted stat" in the early game a bad decision to buy if it has the potential to does save your life and completely negate an ENTIRE champion and builds into one of the STRONGEST late game items?

Zed kills you without the deathmark proc. lol

2000boxes3 votes

whenever i have to fight a zed i just lock in twisted fate or lulu twisted fate can lock in a yellow card while the x is on him and lulu just has great disengage for when zed ults so i usually am able to dodge the zed before he can do any damage when he engages

Jeddy0175 votes

What Riot or people or both needs to start doing are defining strengths & weaknesses.

Riot needs to explain what makes a champ strong AND their weak points.Both when champ is alone & working with team because some champs are better 1v1-ing/splitpushing than they are in a teamfight & vice versa.They need to tell players what said champ works against & what works against said champ. Players needs figure this information out as well so they don't decide to pick Lux into a Zed

NinjaFifer5 votes

You know who the majority of people who complain about Zed are? Casuals, like me. People who don't only play ranked because they don't much care about having to be better than other people. All this talk about counterpicking is useless if you don't play ranked, so tell me, what else, besides a 3200 or 3700 gold item, counters Zed?

Assassins, as a whole, have a certain purpose. Their playstyle is most often referred to as "farming champions, not minions," and therein lies the problem. All the other assassins have a central theme (aside from LeBlanc, but she's also complained about, so she fits with Zed for the same reason): they suck at farming and pushing a lane, but have a much easier time going 1v1 against a champion. They trade laning power for dueling power. Zed does not make this trade. The only real problem I have with Zed is that he can push and farm a lane just as well as any mage, the role which is designed to farm and push lanes, and he can do it without having to worry about resource costs at all.

The double Doran's Ring you had to buy just to keep your mana levels up, he could put into double Doran's Blades that he can use to keep his HEALTH topped up. Sure, you use Annie, a champ who has innate mana conservation and an easy farm button, as an example of a champ who does just fine against Zed, and you still state that you need double Doran's and to stay under tower just to survive the laning phase. He has his counters, but they don't involve changing strategy or being more risky in order to come out on top; they all involve hiding under tower and buying one of two items just to keep from feeding.

Zed doesn't need a nerf to his ability to kill champions. That's his job, let him do it. In fact, I say screw it, Don't let his ult mark (or anyone else's similarly functioning ability) be removed by QSS. But you know what he does need? A nerf to his Razor Shuriken secondary target damage. A nerf to his slipperiness might be in order, such as making his Ult shadow go behind his target like it was on release, but his primary problem is his ability to be better at a mage's job than most any other mage.

Nin10do00143 votes

Fiora is another option.

Sky is going to kill me...

Ariel the Cruel2 votes

Nah. only if you main Quinn. ;p

Champion Skin3 votes

Well Zhonyas activate can screw over a lot of champions and abilities

Intimidator3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lao Fu the Tiger,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=LKIAbRZi,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-04-13T15:08:57.591+0000)

Did your opponent lock in Zed?

Now introducing Annie, Urgot, Akali, Lulu ,Fiddlesticks, Kayle, Lissandra, Malzahar, Vladimir, and many more!

There's a couple of problems with your argument. First most of these champions do not deny a good Zed CS and probably won't kill him either. So he can just constantly push the wave in and roam. Second most of us don't want to learn a couple of champions to just be able to play vs 1 champion. Let's face it how many times you've seen a first time akali/vlad/whatever who just dies to Zed again and again because they don't actually know how to play their champ well?

Locked in your mid laner as a first pick blind and the enemy thought to himself, "Hmm, they first picked a super squishy mid laner with no hard CC and no mobility for dodging my Zed mekkanicz"? Never fear! The based Rito Gods have provided you with two items item 3139 item 3157 to deal with arguably the easiest to counter assassin in the game! Uuuuuuuuuunbuhleevuble!

Don't want to build these items because they change your standard build path or you don't like buying them anyway? Then don't complain when you get assassinated.

Seekers does help but will give mana champs a hard time pushing the wave back in. A good Zed will see your single doran +seekers and will push and roam. Or he might poke you down enough so you can be killed anyways with ult + ignite + couple auto's.

But anyway. Before demanding nerfs, I ask you simply consider counterplaying the enemy. In fact, play that champ you struggle against. Then you can better understand exactly what their strengths and weaknesses are first hand :)

The goal here is ultimately to help people realize that counter-picking and counter-building are two vitally important aspects of League. Counter-picking may not have as much impact in lower elos, but it is still an important concept.

Thing is Zed actually has few weaknesses in his kit. Can't really deny him CS because of manaless waveclear + lasthit passive. Hard to gank him with unconditional blink and his ult swap for jukes. Can't really safefarm under tower because you'll get manaless poke in the face and he still dives you and escapes.

I agree that Zed's lategame is pretty bad if the enemy team knows what to do but it's hard to get to late when Zed is already 10/0 splitpushing lanes or just sieging towers and diving

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