To everyone who thinks that anyone in Bronze knows nothing about LoL

Lugg··56 votes·6,254 views

It truly amazes me to see how many people in higher ELO that believe people in low ELO cannot possibly have legitimate insight into the game.

Let's compare it to football. Do you realize how many coaches and scouts, that are regarded as experts in the game, have never actually played football above the high school level? Also, look at how many players were great on the field but absolutely clueless when it came to coaching or analyzing games. Being around the game alone can educate you on it.

I have played in many games with Diamond and Platinum players and I hold my own quite well. You really aren't the far ahead of guys I have faced in Bronze. In fact, I have been amazed at how little some Diamond players actually know about the game as a whole. There is so much great information online that you learn about the game, you should never assume someone doesn't know what they are talking about.

If you have to say that someone doesn't know because they are Bronze, you are probably only saying that because you can't actually refute their post. So please have some respect for peoples opinions no matter their rank.

129 Comments

Jamaree13 votes

While everyone down there doesn't have those problems and might actually know what they are talking about, I have seen bronze players building things like chalice...on Draven...so yeeeeeah.

Lugg10 votes

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, there are definitely complete idiots in Bronze. But don't discount everyone.

Jamaree4 votes

http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=Damagefox

He also thinks it isn't his fault he is stuck in bronze.

Arcus Diabolus8 votes

{quoted}

http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=Damagefox

He also thinks it isn't his fault he is stuck in bronze.

Everyone thinks that. This is true with every rank.

Chaotic Reks13 votes

"it's not my fault im stuck in challenger"

Arcus Diabolus19 votes

[{quoted}](name=NyX Reks,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=L3mijNRe,comment-id=00000000000000000001,timestamp=2015-07-05T04:33:05.067+0000)

"it's not my fault im stuck in challenger"

"If it didn't get shit teams slowing me down, I'd be in the LCS by now."

Bresn7 votes

"If my shit LCS pros aren't slowing me down, I'd be the USA Faker by now."

MarhsallLee672 votes

Not really. Players who are dedicated to climbing are (generally) able to realize that they currently belong where they are, and that they legitimately need to improve their skills if they want that next division or the next tier and get that shiny victorious skin.

HidingOverHere1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arcus Diabolus,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=L3mijNRe,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-07-05T03:47:28.734+0000)

Everyone thinks that. This is true with every rank.

not me im fine in gold /silver dont wanna move up.

MarhsallLee675 votes

The Bard jungle wouldn't be nearly as bad if his build wasn't literally ass.

EDIT: Holy shit I need to stop looking at his history I think I have cancer now.

Jamaree3 votes

He truly believes it isn't his fault he is stuck in bronze too, that is the worst part.

manliestdino4 votes

MURAMANA DRAVEN NEW META

ArkenStorm2 votes

item 3508

manliestdino1 votes

No you get item 3174 for the mana regen, you feel me?

ArkenStorm1 votes

nah bro, item 3003 or item 3165

manliestdino2 votes

Dude. We all know thatitem 3069 is sooooooo much better than those 2. Even if you fuck up cs, you still get gold! Worth.

ArkenStorm1 votes

but AP draven is OP

Arcus Diabolus7 votes

You're not wrong, but expect to get flamed because GD is becoming Reddit circlejerk 2.0. This game takes middle school math to understand, and anyone who took a stroll through the league Wiki will usually know more about the game than their rank lets on anyway.

Most of the game is decision making and team cooperation, anyway, which makes me pay more attention to 5v5s rather than Solo queue when gauging someone's skill level. Not particularly sure why people focus on Solo queue so much, for that reason.

EDIT: Shit, I'd argue once you hit Gold, you've hit the mechanical cap this game allows you to get to. As I said before, most of this game is team cooperation, not mechanical skill.

RetroRage962 votes

True!

I'd say Gold II maybe... last hitting is a problem for many Gold matches I've watched, and that can be true up to Diamond, but Gold is where most of it stops.

Remlap12234 votes

You're not wrong, but expect to get flamed because GD is becoming Reddit circlejerk 2.0.

Becoming? You mean it's not already that?

Edit:

Most of the game is decision making and team cooperation, anyway, which makes me pay more attention to 5v5s rather than Solo queue when gauging someone's skill level. Not particularly sure why people focus on Solo queue so much, for that reason.

I'll tell you why, because the League community deludes itself by saying you should be able to single handedly carry yourself out of any situation in any role. It's never the fact that your Veigar went ADC as the reason you lost, it's because you're a scrub and didn't carry yourself to victory as support Janna, so therefore you deserve that loss.

You didn't carry the game as the support Janna? Not the troll's fault, it's yours because you couldn't 1v1 a 9/0/3 Jinx. I mean, come on man, how bronze do you have to be to not be able to carry yourself out of that?

Jhera2 votes

Regarding your last statement: Just no. There is no way in hell anyone below Diamond 5 is gonna have even close to the mechanical skill level of players in Diamond 1 and above. I am Diamond 5 atm but I managed to reach D3/D2 level play at a certain point and there's a pretty big difference once you start progressing upwards when it comes to the average player's mechanical skill and execution to where you were before.

Also you're talking about team coordination like it doesn't have anything at all to do with mechanical skill which is completely wrong. You can have good decision making and team cooperation but if you don't have the mechanical skill to have good positioning and precise execution when it counts then it doesn't matter for shit because all you're gonna do is drag your team down with you in the end. Team cooperation and decision making is very important no doubt but mechanical skill is the deciding factor between good players and great players. It is not something which you can just conveniently rule out.

YOLO420SWAGSCOPE4 votes

it's not really about how much you know... it's about how you're willing to look at the other side. Like when i pick a champ that's not meta and take it to a lane that's not their meta, i get flamed at for "trolling", just because it's not "meta". You'll never know if something is good unless you try it yourself, can't just assume something is bad based on what everyone else does

Occams Raiser7 votes

wise men learn from the mistakes of others

Pegasus1772 votes

kind of contradicting yourself. meta = meta game (best possible setup to secure a victory) Meaning the "meta" is already what is considered best. Your not going to secretly discover something better. You could just confess that just like the rest of us... secretly its not about finding a flaw in league to benefit you and your team in future games, its actually that you want to go against the norm to see if you can pull it off because (insert YouTuber/Streamers here) did it and went 20 and 0. am i right?.. or am i right...

Kuroi862 votes

Well, you've also got to consider non-meta picks that simply do good against the meta picks, and then there's full on meta-breaks which build champs in ways other players aren't going to expect and throw them off of their game.

Pegasus1771 votes

I tend to check what someone returns to lane with regularly. I think the majority would. I also tend to check what people have when im heading into a Team-fight for Life-steal etc. I imagine most people do too and would see if some guy had decided to go adc Thresh etc.

The problem with these non meta builds are that the chances of pulling it off are slim and your team suffers for it if you fail. Not to mention your own team normally arent too impressed when they see you going against the grain too. Look at Teah Ocsid's videos where he go against the meta and announces it in pre game lobby. Majority of his team just give up on realizing what hes doing.

Theres a new meta creeping in now where top laner roams with jungler for one rotation and im getting worried that people will see the pros doing this and imitate it cause it's so easily countered.

the meta is the meta because it works. Its the most effective builds, formations and strategies for a reason.

sure its nice to try AP Rek Sai once in a while but not in ranked.. keep it to norm's

Kuroi861 votes

not in ranked.. keep it to norm's

100% agree with you there.

the meta is the meta because it works. Its the most effective builds, formations and strategies for a reason.

And I mostly agree with you here too, though I like to think the meta is slightly larger than most people think. You've not just got the strongest/safest strategies and comps, but you also should consider the strategies and champs that can counter said meta. Obviously neither the meta nor countering it will guarantee you a win, but it can increase your chances if you understand what the meta is and why it works plus what works against it. As for breaking the meta in ranked, I don't think it's a good idea simply because you're banking on the enemy not knowing what you're doing and coming out with more damage or tankiness than they are prepared to handle, if they know what you're doing though, it can be pretty easy for them to counter you.

Pegasus1771 votes

Yes completely agree with you there. Counter picking is very much in practice and pick order plays a large part in that too. Likewise who you face in lane can dictate your build a bit,.. but then we are getting into the nitty gritty semantics of it. You are still going to counter pick a champion who's meta is for that lane. I mean your not going to take a talon bot to face of against a adc cause the range will just poke him out of early game and put him behind. Point im making is couter picking is still done within the meta. The argument above is stating that trying something completely off meta and radical might turn out to be good when in reality it wont.

C9 Best Swain NA4 votes

There is no comparison between a diamond and a bronze player. Normals are exactly that, Normals. When I'm playing norms i've usually got a beer in one hand and a joint in the other. I also try out new builds, champs, roles and play things I'm terrible at. The diamonds and plats you played against were probably either drunk/high, playing a role they aren't familiar with "adc in my case" or bought their accounts. Just because you can hold your own against me when I've had 6 beers and a joint and I'm adding doesn't mean you'd have a snowballs chance in hell if you lane against me in the mid or top lane when i'm sober. I play with my diamond buddies and we all drink and have a good time and get shit talked by golds/plats about being bad when i can barely see straight tell ya what. You get together 4 of your bronze friends and ill get together 4 of my diamond buddies and I will guarantee you we will have a 8-10000 gold lead by 20 minutes in every. single. game. tl;dr if you're in bronze, you belong there and bronze players are bad at this game.

Kuroi861 votes

If we're talking skill as in last hitting, baiting, warding, ect. Then you're right, there is no comparison. Higher elo players typically have practiced their last hitting enough and their reflexes are quick enough that they will out play any low elo player any day of the week.

In terms of knowledge about champions such as what are considered good match-ups, limitations on the champions that they play, top tier builds, then there are a fair share of bronze players that would surprise you.

There is no doubt that you would pub stomp lower elo players, you've got the experience and reflexes to match your rank, the point isn't that a low elo could beat you, but that when it comes to a champ they main, they may know near as much or just as much as you.

C9 Best Swain NA1 votes

about 70% of my real life friends are bronze 5 - bronze 3. They ask me what to build in every single game.. if they don't they build like absolute idiots. Trust bronze players are at the bottom for a reason theyre the bottom 50% of the game which is absolutely awful. If you ever played wow you would know there is a rank called challenger for the bottom 35%. It is the biggest joke and anyone who gets it is a laughing stock. Bronze is lower then that trust me if you're in the bottom 10% of players in bronze 5 you know nothing about anything.

Kuroi863 votes

Former B2 (comp going to crap and hate ranked so never bothered with trying to rank up.) Honestly, never had an issue with builds, I know what my issues are of course. To lump all bronze players in with the bottom 10% is a massive disservice to both them and yourself.

T RexHasTinyArms3 votes

TLDR; 2 issues: 1, sports have other limiting factors, league has fewer so it's probably knowledge limiting someone on some level; 2, if we are talking coaches who are great strategists, but not players, they played high school varsity probably which is at a minimum probably top 25% of the population of people who play that sport, so they would be low gold on the ladder in league.

I think it's definitely a good argument and a lot of people disregard information they shouldn't just because it comes from someone low elo. However, let me play devil's advocate for a moment.

I think the analogy of coaches in sports is a great example of the concept that sometimes it isn't the best players that create the best strategy or macro level game play. However, in the interest of providing a legitimate counter point to be refuted if the original argument is indeed the best, let me argue two issues that were overlooked here.

The first argument I would counter with is that there are different limiting factors between progression in sports and progression in league ranks. If you're short you will not play high school, let a lone college basketball most likely. However, the only real limiting factor in league is reaction time. There are a host of physical attributes a good player may lack (in addition to reaction time), which keep them from progressing beyond high school sports, but there are minimal limiting factors which can keep a player from being able to progress in league if they are able to understand the game intricately. Yes there are some players who will have slow reaction times, or cannot focus for the length of a league game, and are great at theory crafting, but they are a smaller proportion of the community. Therefore it is highly likely that a low elo player picked at random will have significant deficiencies in game knowledge and strategy concepts compared to the skills of a high elo player. This creates a lot of bias that has to be intentionally refuted by players who intend to seriously consider the advice of bronze players.

The second, and more interesting argument is to look at what high school ball would be considered in terms of elo when we are discussing coaching and game theory. The vast majority of sports coaches played at a minimum of high school level if not college ball, and then generally build their coaching experience over years of being a position coach or assistant coach before becoming head coach. So pro ball is the challenger level (maybe the bench or developmental leagues are masters?), but what level is high school ball? You're stating that bronze players may be similar to esteemed coaches because like coaches, they can't play past a lower level, but may have good strategy or theory. However, there is the consideration of things like rec sports, and middle school sports, and how many people get cut when we move from that consideration to high school. If we assume that almost all coaches played their sport at at least varsity high school level skill, then we have a comparison point. We have already dropped everyone who only plays rec, and anyone who didn't practice enough as a kid to continue on in high school, then we drop everyone who doesn't make it off the freshman team, and everyone who never makes it past JV. We have maybe 25% of the population of people who "play the sport" left by varsity high school (probably less)? Coaches understand the game enough that even if they aren't good they make the bench on varsity because they can be position players, or because they help the team understand plays and are useful in practice to get the team better and more coordinated. So if this is the minimum level most successful coaches play to in sports, what does that translate to in league? Well where is the top 20-25% of the ladder? The cut off is low gold (and I mean gold mmr, not gold ranked, but plays against all silver teams). If we assume that varsity high school is a smaller % of the players for that sport, then suddenly we may be talking plat or low diamond for the level that successful, high quality coaches come from. In this model, low elo players may have a good idea, but it is likely to be akin to a trick play that is interesting, but doesn't match up to knowing the whole game well enough to coach.

I'd love to hear counter points, because I think there are some good ones, but I like to only take one side of the argument in socratic discussion (pretty sure that's the model, but then I didn't pay attention in philosophy as an undergrad because seriously who uses philosophy class ever?).

Occams Raiser3 votes

TLDR; 2 issues: 1, sports have other limiting factors, league has fewer so it's probably knowledge limiting someone on some level; 2, if we are talking coaches who are great strategists, but not players, they played high school varsity probably which is at a minimum probably top 25% of the population of people who play that sport, so they would be low gold on the ladder in league.

Hmmmmm. Really? something is wrong with this rebuttal.

T RexHasTinyArms2 votes

You say something is wrong with the rebuttal but don't point out what. The purpose was to propose the other side of an argument so the original post could address issues that it originally ignored in favor of brevity. I think I stated that in the original post at the bottom, if not my bad. However, when the original poster uses it to elaborate and make his argument more compelling while you say I'm wrong, offer no argument as to why, and then down vote the post it does more to further confirmation bias that low elo players are insecure and want to make excuses rather than improve, instead of furthering the discussion on the merits of bringing more insightful knowledge to the community from bronze, silver, and low good players. I have a vested interest in the OP making a compelling argument because I fall on the cusp of low elo rather than being firmly in middling elo and so I would prefer to use stuff like this to be constructive.

Lugg2 votes

A nice well thought out post.

The football example was just an analogy, not literal. I was just using it to get the point across.

As for reaction time. There are more factors at play than hand/eye coordination. It really depends on how good your computer and connection is. You could put a pro player on a crappy connection and he would have problems in gold. So some players may be in a lower elo not because they are bad, they just have poor equipment.

Also, pro ball would be LCS. College would be Plat to Challenger. High school would be Silver-Gold. Rec would be Bronze. Don't dismiss Rec, I have know guys IRL who knew TONS about football. Also, some people are diamond level players but they are in low elo because they don't want to do the grind to get up there.

Curling Veigar2 votes

diamond is elo hell

C9 Best Swain NA1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sadistic Veigar,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=L3mijNRe,comment-id=0013,timestamp=2015-07-05T21:53:04.084+0000)

diamond is elo hell

I'd argue diamond 5 is worse then bronze 5 with all the people who bought their accounts and the trolls.

Lugg1 votes

The thing with trolls at that level is this, they will drop tiers like a rock and end up where they belong.

I'm also guessing that you haven't ever played Bronze 5, or if you did, it was back in season 1 or 2.

C9 Best Swain NA1 votes

{quoted}

The thing with trolls at that level is this, they will drop tiers like a rock and end up where they belong.

I'm also guessing that you haven't ever played Bronze 5, or if you did, it was back in season 1 or 2.

Yea but you get the people in silver that paid someone to pilot their account to diamond 5 and they have to play their one game a month to stop decay. Trust me i had a game in diamond i was 1/0/1 top lane when they ff'd. 2/17 mid 0/24 bot lane 1/12 jungle. I was 1/0/1 at 25 minutes. Trust me diamond players know when you lose lane you just stop feeding get denied farm and sit under turret. Whats worse a 2-0 vlad with 200 cs or a 9-0 vlad with 200 cs. Either way you're getting denied but you don't have to feed as well. My friend posted on here he climbed from bronze 3 to gold 5 in season 3 and no I was never horrible enough to be placed in bronze. If you deserve to climb you will, if someone is stuck in bronze with 200+ games they have no one to blame but themselves. Hell I got to diamond this season in 55 games with a 66% win rate.

Lugg1 votes

55 games is pretty damn quick. What tier did you start the season at?

C9 Best Swain NA1 votes

plat 4 skipped plat 3. You still want my offer ;)?

Lugg1 votes

I think that is why so many Diamond players don't believe in ELO hell. They have never had to try to get out of Bronze the last 2 seasons. It's ridiculous. Even some PRO players have said it's really bad.

C9 Best Swain NA1 votes

If you deserve to climb out you will. and it's been stated in this thread multiple times the real elo hell is diamond 5. Due to all the clamping from the implementation of master tier. Due to the recent fix last month it's not as bad but it's still exists. I guarantee you I could climb out of bronze 5 all the way to silver in under 50 games. I helped my buddies climb from bronze to silvers on smurfs all the time. I usually get first blood in the first 3 minutes and end up 20/0 in nearly every game on my smurf.

Lugg1 votes

Not to be a smart ass or anything, but when you duo with a high elo, it's probably very easy to climb. Climbing out solo is a totally different thing.

C9 Best Swain NA1 votes

You're talking out of your ass now. I'm duo'ing with bronze 5's. Trust me I climbed to diamond solo. If you're stuck in bronze 5 you're bad at this game. Nothing to be ashamed of but the only factor is you.

GundayMonday2 votes

It's a different kind of troll in diamond. You get the players that are amazing, but will afk if their ego gets ever so slightly bruised. You have the boosted accounts that don't understand the game. You have the players that hit diamond, and then play complicated champions for the first time in your promo games. I've played with ex-LCS players that just decide they don't like someone on your team and will intentionally feed to force a loss. It's a really weird mmr.

Bronze V has its own brand of horrors, but a highly skilled player can still quickly climb.

GundayMonday2 votes

Of the same mindset. It's not "who's right", it's "what's right". Good insight can come from players of all skill levels.

But others in the thread do have a pretty good point. If you know so much, why aren't you ranked higher? Sometimes you have to walk the walk if you want credibility when you talk the talk. Diamond players don't know everything, but they know enough to beat ~98% of the ranked player base. Generally speaking, that is worth something.

Rueian2 votes

The issue is a bronze player cant have a great grasp of mid-high level play. They have insight into low level play.

If they had good insight at high level play, they'd place higher simply for the fact that they'd know how the game works more. Literally going from bronze to silver is a matter of just focusing on getting the free gold across the map.

Aerothal2 votes

{quoted}

It truly amazes me to see how many people in higher ELO that believe people in low ELO cannot possibly have legitimate insight into the game.

Let's compare it to football. Do you realize how many coaches and scouts, that are regarded as experts in the game, have never actually played football above the high school level? Also, look at how many players were great on the field but absolutely clueless when it came to coaching or analyzing games. Being around the game alone can educate you on it.

I have played in many games with Diamond and Platinum players and I hold my own quite well. You really aren't the far ahead of guys I have faced in Bronze. In fact, I have been amazed at how little some Diamond players actually know about the game as a whole. There is so much great information online that you learn about the game, you should never assume someone doesn't know what they are talking about.

If you have to say that someone doesn't know because they are Bronze, you are probably only saying that because you can't actually refute their post. So please have some respect for peoples opinions no matter their rank.

with all love from fellow Bronzie to fellow Bronzie...you are not right on this one man.

This game is so deep, it goes way above cs'ing and warding (which by the way, if you do them right can alone get you out of Bronze).

If i knew all about wave control, freezing, wave dynamics, map pressure and when to engage, not engage, what playing on blue vs red side means and how to build accordingly, how to always reactively build in all situations and when to help a lane and when to rather focus on your own lane, when to push, when to defend, when to group....and so on and so on... I'd be out of bronze in no time. there are so many layers to this game which i dont have the time or drive to penetrate. That's the reason i am in bronze.

When a higher elo player tells you that a bronze player doesnt know the game, he means that there are some aspects to the game the Bronze player has not learned or fails to grasp. And he is right.

you really think its all about mechanics?

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