Sona's damage was too high
They nerfed Veigar's stun to a delay
Why can Annie be able to straight nuke people (and stun a shit ton of them) without any AP items? Why can Annie point and click instant stun people while Veigar has to have a delay?
Stop choosing what champs YOU want us to play, Riot.
Dangerous Man2 votesBecause Veigar has a butthole ton of damage and Annie has a quarter of a butthole ton.
Nucleophilic atk1 votesYes, but Veigar builds damage to do a butthole ton of damage. Annie builds none and still does AT LEAST a half of a butthole ton.
insaiyanbacca1 votesyes but i still have yet to see an annie q one shot and adc i have however seen a veigar q do thi
Nucleophilic atk1 votesI've never seen a Veigar Q one shot a carry. I will say that it had to be stupid late in the game with a very fed Veigar and an adc not smart enough to build bv.
Zydin1 votesHave you thought about that just maybe they are working through the champions and that Annie is on their list?
Don't assume they are OK with something that they might be working on changing right now.
Nucleophilic atk1 votesCould be. But considering it would be a very small change, I'm not sure what would take that long to do. Delayed Veigar stun, so they can implement a cast time to Annie's ult.
Raptamei1 votes[{quoted}](name=Nucleophilic atk,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=ExPevAuT,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-02-23T17:30:17.365+0000)
Could be. But considering it would be a very small change, I'm not sure what would take that long to do. Delayed Veigar stun, so they can implement a cast time to Annie's ult.
They can't, because casting RW would result in the stun being wasted on the W.
chutlu1 votesThey "nerfed" Veigars stun cause of lack of counterplay, Annie has more, like her inability to insta-nuke someone unless she gets crazily fed.
Sir Yamazuki2 votesThey "nerfed" Veigars stun cause of lack of counterplay, Annie has more, like her inability to insta-nuke someone unless she gets crazily fed.
She does this from the support role, where you know, she doesn't even farm.
chutlu1 votes[{quoted}](name=Sir Yamazuki,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=ExPevAuT,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-02-23T13:47:39.612+0000)
She does this from the support role, where you know, she doesn't even farm.
Veigar can too, especially with his scaling from enemy AP see: lemonation
Nucleophilic atk1 votesBot lane, if Annie ult stuns a squishy support, they are insta-nuked. This happens while she builds no damage. Annie's point and click stun has less counterplay than Veigar's skill shot stun.
Jubbinaut1 votes[{quoted}](name=Nucleophilic atk,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=ExPevAuT,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2015-02-23T17:31:37.871+0000)
Bot lane, if Annie ult stuns a squishy support, they are insta-nuked. This happens while she builds no damage.
Not necessarily, and certainly not early-game. Even post-6, an un-fed Annie isn't likely to 100-0 anyone off of a single rotation. In no small part, this is because of the change made to her last year, where they dropped base damage across her entire kit, but increased the scaling.
She's still a burst-mage support, but she doesn't have nearly as much damage in that role.
Annie needs to get kills - and AP items - to become a dominant force in terms of damage. All Veigar has ever really needed was farm.
Nucleophilic atk1 votesBut her rotation + 2 AA from the adc certainly will.
Jubbinaut2 votesSo you're comparing her synergy with another champ to Veigar's solo face-melting? That's pretty Apples and Oranges.
Nucleophilic atk1 votesVeigar can be played bot lane. But in short, no. I'm comparing "we have to nerf mr 0 counter play Veigar" (completely false statement) but keep an easier stun to hit that does damage as well on Annie lol.
Jubbinaut2 votes[{quoted}](name=Nucleophilic atk,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=ExPevAuT,comment-id=000200010000000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-23T19:07:02.910+0000)
Veigar can be played bot lane.
This is true, but you're making statements expressly related to Annie's bot-lane, and comparing them to the "standard" Veigar experience, which is mid.
I'm saying outright that Annie doesn't have the face-melting power of a Veigar unless she gets gold and builds AP - support items delay or deny most of that damage, and support gold budget exacerbates that.
You wanna compare Annie mid to Veigar mid, that's reasonable, and we can have that discussion, but outright claiming that Annie doesn't need items to insta-nuke is not only false, it's fallacious.
But in short, no. I'm comparing "we have to nerf mr 0 counter play Veigar" (completely false statement) but keep an easier stun to hit that does damage as well on Annie lol.
I agree. I'm not really happy with the change on his stun, as it's pretty hard to hit anyway. I'm interested to see how it feels, but I suspect it'll keep me from playing him for a long while.
The question is, are you arguing against the change to Veigar, or for a change to Annie? Because I can certainly agree with the former, but you're going to need a better argument for the latter than "Well, they changed Veigar."
Nucleophilic atk1 votesThe question is, are you arguing against the change to Veigar, or for a change to Annie? Because I can certainly agree with the former, but you're going to need a better argument for the latter than "Well, they changed Veigar."
Well, we all know that Riot doesn't listen, so while I am highly against the Veigar changes (didn't even play him that much), they are what they are. I'm just saying that if they delay a stun because "it has 0 counterplay", then they should also delay a stun that has even less. Being that the "0 counterplay" one is a skill shot and her's is a point and click.
Jubbinaut1 votesThen, as I said, you need a better argument than "but they changed Veigar!" Because that argument boils down to begging for homogeneity, and there's no way anyone's going for that.
Nucleophilic atk1 votesOk, Annie's stun has no counterplay. Boom.
Jubbinaut1 votesI disagree. It's extremely obvious when her stun is up, and champions with any form of mobility should have little trouble avoiding any triggering spell except her Q - which has a fairly slow travel time, allowing them to get far enough out of range for the short stun duration to wear off before she can do much else. And it's single-target to boot (with her lowest base damage and lowest scaling).
Her ult offers her the longest range for her stun, but it's still a skillshot, and frankly the range on it isn't that long. Even so, hitting a stun at max range on the ult then requires that she waste a third or more of the stun time getting close enough to follow up on it.
I think there's a lot of room for interesting play and counterplay in her kit. She's certainly strong, but there are definite ways of dealing with that strength.
Nucleophilic atk1 votesBut it certainly does not have more counterplay than Veigar's "0 counterplay" stun.
Jubbinaut1 votesThat's true, but speaks more towards why the change to Veigar's stun is a questionable decision than it does to whether or not Annie needs a change.
Nucleophilic atk1 votesI completely agree. But what I'm saying is, Riot obviously thinks that it has 0 counterplay given their feelings on Veigar. That is why it needs changed. Her stun is easier to hit than a "0 counterplay" stun, and she does more damage than a "she does too much damage" support.
Jubbinaut1 votesI'm not arguing with the Veigar point. There's no point to be made there. "Veigar got changed" is not a reason to change Annie.
Sona's problem was never that she does too much damage. It was that she does too much damage with too little response. Her Q isn't even targeted - it hits if she's in range, period. Her Q-passive-auto combo was oppressively powerful early on, and required nothing more than walking nearby, pressing Q and auto-attacking someone.
Even comparing damage, landing a single harass combo from Sona matches or exceeds Annie's Q damage. And while Annie has the capacity for more damage in her kit, due to more damage tools, Sona has greater utility in the rest of her kit (healing, shielding, AA buffs for allies, slows, damage reduction, etc).
It's apples and oranges again.
Eleshakai1 votesSona's damage was non-interactive. She didn't need to get in range or even stop moving to do her harass. When you have no risk on your harass, the damage needs to be a bit lower. Annie has a brief cast time on her q and her autoattack's animation has a pretty good pause time.
Veigar's stun can stun people from 1025 range(650 cast range, 375 radius) without a flash, so it needs to have a bit of a delay. If you can stun people from over 1000 range that frequently, it needs to have a tell.
Annie's 1000-range stun requires her flash which is a 5 minute cooldown, which is why it is permitted.
Before anyone accuses... I've never played annie in ranked, and I think I only played her once in normals back when LoL first came out. I've played her a few times in ARAM and HATE playing her, so no... I'm not just 'biased in her favour'... back when I last played I was actually trying to learn Sona 'cause I enjoyed her playstyle.
Nucleophilic atk1 votesI mean, Sona had to get in range to do her damage lol. Her damage comes from the empowered AA, not even the Q really.
Veigar's stun is also a lot harder to hit.