2 reworks in a row. You did it with galio and now urgot. Yes urgot needed a new kit but he didn't need to get deleted. I bet evelynn is next on the list of champions to delete and replace. Neither of them last anything from their original kit.
VesperNadal6 votes
Pierce The Veal2 votesYep. Except arguably Warwick, all of the other lost their identity. Perhaps the only two other somewhat good reworks being taric and gangplank.
Also don't forget karma.
Linna Excel1 votesYes, I think Warwick was the closest to a proper rework that I've seen in a while.
Pierce The Veal3 votes[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=EYf3oe6F,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-11T04:02:17.166+0000)
Yes, I think Warwick was the closest to a proper rework that I've seen in a while.
Yep. Definitely.
When people ask Riot to rework a champion, we're not asking them to change their identity. Over the years people forget the champions as they used to be, or new players join and drown out the voices of people WHO DID play those champions.
I feel so tempted everyday to play AD sion. But there is no AD sion as it used to be.
Linna Excel2 votesI wish riot would remember that.
I think the problem really started with the trundle rework, which might have been justified, but riot became obsessed with radical identity changes because of it. In the long view, I'm wondering if that decision was the wrong one.
Pierce The Veal1 votes[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=EYf3oe6F,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-11T04:12:15.185+0000)
I wish riot would remember that.
I think the problem really started with the trundle rework, which might have been justified, but riot became obsessed with radical identity changes because of it. In the long view, I'm wondering if that decision was the wrong one.
To be honest, looking back, I think it was the wrong one in the case of Trundle.
Nobody remembers who trundle is. He's not excessively fun to play, but at least back then people DID play him. Nowadays you don't see one in a hundred games.
Terozu1 votesI've seen 2 in my last 5 games...
d4rkshock1 votesYep. Except arguably Warwick, all of the other lost their identity. Perhaps the only two other somewhat good reworks being taric and gangplank.
Also don't forget karma.
What I mean is that urgot has nothing left of his original kit. All of the champions kept at least one ability except yorick but tbh, all of yorickget abilities did the same exact thing and he was the worst champion in the game for a long time. Go kept parrrley and his passive. Poppy kept her stun. We kept the infinate duress. Sion kept his shield. Shen and taric have different game mechanics. I don't know much about old fiora even though I played when they still had old fiora.
Terozu1 votesUrgot keeps his lock on, not much but at least it's something.
Pierce The Veal1 votesEh, to be honest, I haven't heard ANY upcry about urgot rework.
Urgot kept his lock on, and got a new ult that does what his current ult does, but better.
Sion? He lost his ult, lost his stun (hey lemme channel for a year please), "kept" his w in exchange for it getting heavily nerfed and him having like 1600 base hp.
WOOOOOOOOHOOOOOO1 votesWhat identities were worth preserving?
Pierce The Veal1 votesWhat identities were worth preserving?
What identities weren't? They could have all been adjusted and made to work.
Every rework ever had champion identity at least mostly lost besides the Warwick rework.
SEKAI1 votesWhat identities weren't? They could have all been adjusted and made to work.
Every rework ever had champion identity at least mostly lost besides the Warwick rework.
Read their kits. Most of their original iconic identities, ie the ones people know them by, are kept. Even utterly radical rework like Sion kept his iconic infinite HP stacking and shield blast.
Aspects are usually only completely removed because either Riot deems it completely unworkable such as old Yorick and his cancer kit or old Poppy's unfathomably OP ulti, or that it's too boring and "played" such as old Fiora being essentially Alpha staged Yi or GP's E being a meh speed buff.
Only a few reworks are actually complete botches. Like Morde... Though not botched, some of the reworks just need more work, like Shen.
Pierce The Veal1 votesRead their kits. Most of their original iconic identities, ie the ones people know them by, are kept. Even utterly radical rework like Sion kept his iconic infinite HP stacking and shield blast.
Lol old sion was known for shield blast?
Sure, he got infinite HP stacking, but he lost 600+ base hp for it. Nice. Now if I kill around 300+ minions I can get back the base hp I already had.
And his real iconic move was his R. He became a monster that charged in with his teammates and HEALED HIMSELF AND EVERYONE ELSE AROUND HIM. He also got +65 AD from his E that meant he hit hard at every point in the game.
Almost nobody ever weant tank sion.
SEKAI1 votesLol old sion was known for shield blast?
Sure, he got infinite HP stacking, but he lost 600+ base hp for it. Nice. Now if I kill around 300+ minions I can get back the base hp I already had.
And his real iconic move was his R. He became a monster that charged in with his teammates and HEALED HIMSELF AND EVERYONE ELSE AROUND HIM. He also got +65 AD from his E that meant he hit hard at every point in the game.
Almost nobody ever weant tank sion.
The problem is that no one played Sion AD after S2. So his "AP playstyle" is more well known.
His old ulti is also the unworkable type. It's either too good or too bad. It CAN be balanced, but they just got rid of it in favour of something easier to manage and similar thematically (being "unstoppable") in the end.
Pierce The Veal1 votesThe problem is that no one played Sion AD after S2. So his "AP playstyle" is more well known.
His old ulti is also the unworkable type. It's either too good or too bad. It CAN be balanced, but they just got rid of it in favour of something easier to manage and similar thematically (being "unstoppable") in the end.
It's unworkable?
Based on what?
Plus, how is the new sion any easier to manage than the old one? All they did is make him a generic cc tank and then call it a day.
Plus, another thing that was popular was to start as AP then transition into AD. There was even several high ranked (diamond+) AD sion mains. Yes, diamond was a high acheivement back when master and challenger didn't exist.
SEKAI1 votesIt's unworkable?
Based on what?
Based on the fact Aatrox exists with his ulti and he's easier to balance than old Sion but Riot still has issues with him?
Plus, how is the new sion any easier to manage than the old one? All they did is make him a
genericcc tank and then call it a day.
Old Sion only has 2 playstyles.
Or he does the transition from AP to AD. Doesn't matter, it's just going from point 2 to point 1, doesn't make a difference.
Obviously, this kind of playstyle is hard to manage. Balls of stats can be justified if they're kite-able, but champs like Old Sion will make sure at least 1 person will never escape him. And all he needed was flashing or ghosting into the enemy team and stun their carry/mvp and suddenly their whole team will have to face him head on in a matchup Sion can not lose. Or that enemy team has GW or they survived the AP W burst and Sion is suddenly completely useless without any answer for it (not even splitpushing as he didn't have both fast clears and escapes). That's not a good design and you know it.
The new Sion isn't even that different from Old SIon.
His old Q is just divided into his current Q and E and made into skill shots as well as giving him the ability to poke and chase better, his HP stacking and shield blasts are both still there, the only thing that's actually changed is just his R; it's not like Sion doesn't have other ways to tank besides drain-tanking, or that he has lost his ability to grind everything in front of him to dust. The rework just made Sion more manageable, it really isn't that much of a big deal.
Plus, another thing that was popular was to start as AP then transition into AD. There was even several high ranked (diamond+) AD sion mains. Yes, diamond was a high acheivement back when master and challenger didn't exist.
It wasn't "popular".
Let us be real here bud, no one was playing Sion. Sion was second only to Urgot in terms of the lowest play rate and win rate, both are bottom champs that nobody played, nobody was winning with them, and nobody besides the so SO very few even thought about playing those champs, in the grand scheme of things. I mean, why do you think Riot put a joke line of "Sorry Urgot, we can't hang out anymore" when they reworked Sion? Sion was changed because he was only as workable as old Yi or released Xin.
What is wrong for Riot to address those champs and make them workable than they were, while trying to keep as much of their iconic identities intact?
You also do realise carry Sion is still a thing now right? And no, I don't mean using his passive and die every time he engages, actual carry build, just more bruiser--ish. Yes it's do-able. Sion is just currently a bit undertuned. But carry Sion is entirely do-able and no one is stopping you from re-living the old AD Sion glory. You just refuse to learn the new Sion because he doesn't exactly resemble the old one in every aspect of himself.
You're simply overreacting. The only reworks that actually destroy champs in a negative way are only examples like Morde (Yorick and Fiora reworks were positive destruction; especially Fiora, which her rework actually gave her an identity as she didn't have one besides being Yi v2.0). Sion and and most of the reworks are far from all that stuff.
Pierce The Veal1 votesMan you are convoluting everything.
So you're telling me that if he flashes in and smashes someone's face in, it's not okay, but if any other champion does the same today that's fine?
Additionally, what's with the bs comparison to Aatrox? Sion is a sustain auto attacker melee and so is aatrox therefore... They must be the same? Aatrox's issues were with him having his sustain PASSIVELY. IN LANE. UNDYING IN JUNGLE. And then he could turret dive level 2 and walk away without dying. That's far above what Sion could do.
As for the "it wasn't popular." Please don't play dumb. When I said it was popular, it was clear from the way I said it that it was popular amongst Sion players.
As for reliving the old AD sion glory? How the fuck am I supposed to do that, would you let me know? I have to deal with 600 less base hp, the fact that to cc someone I need to channel for a few seconds when my dps should be coming from autos, and dying to be able to do a portion of what old Sion's ult could do. He doesn't have the same fantasy at all. Old sion lived off of the fight. Stop him from fighting and he'd fall flat on his face. Current sion is a brick. He'll fall apart eventually, but he takes a LONG time to do so. Completely different. The fantasy doesn't even overlap at all.
Let's not kid ourselves. Carry sion today is NOT a thing. You don't just see it happen. The closest you'll get to carry sion is a sion with titanic hydra and deadman's plate. In that case, Darius and several other juggernauts are also carry champions.
And in the end you're telling Morde was a bad rework, but Sion wasn't? Hey at least Morde roughly kept his skills. Sion lost everything except one and even lost his playstyle. Out goes Sion, in comes "Sion."
I am not frustrated at the new champions that are shat out from reworks— I am frustrated at the loss of gameplay styles unique to the prerework champions. To someone who has come later, or to someone who has never actually appreciated champions with particularly low playrates, I really have nothing to say to convince you that such gameplay styles are valuable. You don't want to accept what we say, because then you're worried you won't get to have your new champion.
SEKAI1 votesMan you are convoluting everything.
So you're telling me that if he flashes in and smashes someone's face in, it's not okay, but if any other champion does the same today that's fine?
The problem is that Sion's stun was both long and was a lock-on spell. So getting into range of somebody itself already means that somebody was guaranteed to be fucked with no dispute. That is really not something you want it have on melee meat-grinder champs. I get behind that the game needs guarantees, conditions and "checking", I'm not the guy who goes skillshot-everything, but I also strongly believe that there has to have at least some sort of room for the "checked" to retaliate as a last effort during the conditional checking. Being "checked" only means you're at an extreme disadvantage which you will most likely die in, but it shouldn't in and of itself outright spelt doom to the player, which old Sion simply did. Similarly when a "checking" was refuted it shouldn't completely invalidate the "checker", but old Sion also had a tendency for that too.
In that vein, old Sion was simply badly designed, there is no denying that.
The new Sion can still flash in and really mess someone up while giving them 0 chance to get away when played right. In fact, Sion locks down, sticks and chases better now. The difference is but he needs to use at least 2 spells out of his kit to do that and they are not straight up lock-ons. But the reward for the right play is not only the same as before, but greater, and identity is largely unchanged. This invites last-ditch escapes of the "checked" but also rewards the "checker" more than before if they played their cards right, and Sion is neither invalidated or rendered useless if his initial approach didn't work.
Note the difference.
Additionally, what's with the bs comparison to Aatrox? Sion is a sustain auto attacker melee and so is aatrox therefore... They must be the same? Aatrox's issues were with him having his sustain PASSIVELY. IN LANE. UNDYING IN JUNGLE. And then he could turret dive level 2 and walk away without dying. That's far above what Sion could do.
Old Sion's passive let him ignore flat damages. Yes he was very similar to Aatrox in that they were both very hard to kill in and out of lane, who were both capable of chasing people down turrets and getting out, who were both problematic partly due to their draintanking, who are both binary stat-checks who either sink or swim.
Yes, they are comparable.
As for the "it wasn't popular." Please don't play dumb. When I said it was popular, it was clear from the way I said it that it was popular amongst Sion players.
Because 100 out of 150 people do something doesn't make it "popular". It's just a false use of that word. That's why I brought up the fact nobody was playing Sion. He was an extremely niche pick to say the least, what's common to do among those diehard players is hardly something to be called "popular". It's "a common tactic of the few remaining Sion players at the time" at best.
As for reliving the old AD sion glory? How the fuck am I supposed to do that, would you let me know? I have to deal with 600 less base hp, the fact that to cc someone I need to channel for a few seconds when my dps should be coming from autos, and dying to be able to do a portion of what old Sion's ult could do. He doesn't have the same fantasy at all. Old sion lived off of the fight. Stop him from fighting and he'd fall flat on his face. Current sion is a brick. He'll fall apart eventually, but he takes a LONG time to do so. Completely different. The fantasy doesn't even overlap at all.
Let's not kid ourselves. Carry sion today is NOT a thing. You don't just see it happen. The closest you'll get to carry sion is a sion with titanic hydra and deadman's plate. In that case, Darius and several other juggernauts are also carry champions.
Build lethality on him and build him similar to how you build lethality ADC. It is possible for him to kill people with a fully charged Q in that build. What was used was he simply run into a teamfight with ulti, and kill off squishies with a charged Q. If he died during the meantime, then just zombie rush the nearby enemies down, though not always needed.
This was tested positive in diamonds, as was claimed anyway.
But yes, a more generic approach is Titanic Hydra and Deadman. Again, there are a few ways to pull carry Sion off.
EDIT: And yes, Darius is actually a carry champion. Because he can get fed to the point of solo-ending the entire enemy team given he has enough supports pushing him. In fact, just like you said, most of the champs in the juggernaut class are carry champs who get fed so that they can run at you and there's very little you can do (I'll stress once more, the "little" is important. It's a bad design when it's replaced with "nothing").
EDIT2: You may have been confusing that you have to be building traditional ADC crit builds or something along those lines to be considered a carry. Not really. Fiora has been carrying since the dawn of time by rushing Hydra. Olaf has been carrying since Season 1 and 2 by stacking HP. Nasus has been THE hypercarry (maybe not anymore) by stacking CDR, HP and rushing Sheen. Sion may have lost his old PD+IE and stacking BT build, but there are other options too. He can still function to carry.
And in the end you're telling Morde was a bad rework, but Sion wasn't? Hey at least Morde roughly kept his skills. Sion lost everything except one and even lost his playstyle. Out goes Sion, in comes "Sion."
I told you before, despite the seemingly different kit, Sion actually only lost his old R, and everything else was kept, made arguably better than before.
Morde rework was a completely different story, directly opposite. Because Morde rework is one that seems to be largely unchanged, when in reality EVERYTHING was changed. For a time, his new W couldn't even self cast, his E was rendered completely and utterly useless, and he was entirely a Q flash-in-1-shot bot who has a dragon pet to push towers and was made completely unable to solo lane; this was entirely different to who Morde was. I don't think you know how different Sion rework and Morde rework are.
I am not frustrated at the new champions that are shat out from reworks— I am frustrated at the loss of gameplay styles unique to the prerework champions. To someone who has come later, or to someone who has never actually appreciated champions with particularly low playrates, I really have nothing to say to convince you that such gameplay styles are valuable. You don't want to accept what we say, because then you're worried you won't get to have your new champion.
There was really not much "unique" to pre-rework Sion. His "AP playstyle" was both completely unintended and oppressively binary almost like good o' AP Yi, and his intended AD playstyle was nothing but a test project created by merging Trynd and Nasus. There was really nothing about Sion's "ggez or bust" playstyles, both AD and AP, that was worth keeping.
Though the reworks did keep the vast majority of his thematic and design aspects from stunning to shield blasts to HP stacking. And he's still an unstoppable juggernauts who's capable of obliterating the entire enemy team in many ways. Once more, "just made more manageable".
I completely fail to see your disappointment in the new Sion. It just to me isn't rational at all.
I can get behind if you're upset about Skarner rework, Malz rework, Rammus rework, fkn Ryze (I lied, none of his iterations made him remotely acceptable), the more questionably altered champs in the assassin update and unanswered questions (Shaco, Rengar, LB, Fizz. You know the deal), or even Shen's rework which isn't bad itself but is incredibly unpolished and clunky in its current state. But Sion?
I would react the same for any supposed disappointments over reworks like Taric, WW, GP, Poppy etc (though I still despise Fiora after her rework).
WOOOOOOOOHOOOOOO1 votesReplaced by a better version of Urgot that fits the new lore.