No champion should have all point and click abilities

Ternt·Jan 12, 2016·2 votes·734 views

These champions are a problem because they lack the human element (error). Garen's ult should be a skillshot, like Heimberdingers E. Vlad should not have as much targeted damage in his kit as he does without having some sort of opportunity to miss a skill. These are the un-fun champs I don't want to play against. The reason Riot doesn't do anything about Lee, Zed, Riven etc is because they have a higher chance to fuck up a combo or you even have the ability to flash away from something. With champions like Garen or Vlad, you don't get that much from them. No mana so they can harass as long as they have health, both have good health regen/life steal, and both have almost all point and click abilities.

36 Comments

The DeckownerJan 12, 20162 votes

garen is fine, he has his weaknesses.

but vlad gives aids.

u know, he sucks blood from all kind of people.

TerntJan 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=ETeMswBz,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-01-12T14:15:46.590+0000)

garen is fine, he has his weaknesses.

but vlad gives aids.

u know, he sucks blood from all kind of people.

Fact. And in this meta, Garen doesn't have much counter play. I've played versus numerous Garens, and regardless of how you play it, fast, slow, froze, he always snowballs so hard. For his low skillcap, he shouldn't have such great advantages.

The DeckownerJan 12, 20161 votes

the problem with garen is bork/last whisper nerf hurts quite abit.

TerntJan 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=ETeMswBz,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-12T14:58:53.548+0000)

the problem with garen is bork/last whisper nerf hurts quite abit.

There's no build that works well against him. I've tried rushing IE, Trinity, Dominicks, Youmoos, Essence and none seem to do much to him.

The DeckownerJan 12, 20161 votes

try bork demoik then armor and hp.

IsmokeOreganoJan 12, 20162 votes

i can't speak for vlad, but it's important to remember not everyone in the game is good like you. Garen is supposed to be friendly to new people joining the game with a simple yet effective kit. Try learning top lane playing someone like renekton compared to garen, the new kid playing garen will have a much easier time and probably enjoy the game more.

TerntJan 12, 20162 votes

{quoted}

i can't speak for vlad, but it's important to remember not everyone in the game is good like you. Garen is supposed to be friendly to new people joining the game with a simple yet effective kit. Try learning top lane playing someone like renekton compared to garen, the new kid playing garen will have a much easier time and probably enjoy the game more.

I realize this, but at the same time, people who have played for 2-3 years abuse the shit out of the 1k ult for true damage. That's when it becomes a problem. If we need champs for new players, then turn the damage down, because in the hands of a seasoned player, it's really toxic.

EDIT: Also, Ashe is a starter champ and has 2 skill shots.

IsmokeOreganoJan 12, 20161 votes

I agree Garen has some qualities that make him a pain to deal with, especially his ult. I'm just saying mechanically he is for beginners and i think it's ok he doesn't have any skillshots. That being said in the hands of a good player after black cleaver, if he spins to win and reduces your armor then ults he can deal nearly 70% of renektons health at level 6.... i know because it happened to me yesterday

TerntJan 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I agree Garen has some qualities that make him a pain to deal with, especially his ult. I'm just saying mechanically he is for beginners and i think it's ok he doesn't have any skillshots. That being said in the hands of a good player after black cleaver, if he spins to win and reduces your armor then ults he can deal nearly 70% of renektons health at level 6.... i know because it happened to me yesterday

It's too oppressive. But look at the other starting champions, Ashe has skill shots, Yi has alpha to dodge skills and is a squishy auto attacker, Kha'Zix has skill shots, Ryze has skillshots, etc. Garen is one of the only starter champs that is highly abused and has little counter play in the meta righ tnow because of the BC + Ult. I had 1400 health on Jayce, had Garen almost killed and nope, 800 true damage ult, at level 6 while building armor. There's ways to balance a champion and keep him noob friendly without making it being played outside of noob games horrendous.

IsmokeOreganoJan 12, 20161 votes

I agree that his damage output is ridiculous when he's building tank (just like illaoi). But looking back on it do you remeber playing ashe your first game and taking thornmail? Or trying to play ryze and not understanding his combo? I couldn't use yi at all because alpha strike always put me in danger and i still don't use yi to this day because of the salt i remember about it when i was new. Of all the beginning champs garen is best because he can actually survive in a fight, and doesn;t have over complicated abilites to figure out. Do i think he needs nerfs? Yes and no, i think they could at least tune down his damage scaling a bit. but so far as MECHANICS i think he's fine.

BharhashJan 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Often I Jayce,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=ETeMswBz,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-12T14:29:10.403+0000)

It's too oppressive. But look at the other starting champions, Ashe has skill shots, Yi has alpha to dodge skills and is a squishy auto attacker, Kha'Zix has skill shots, Ryze has skillshots, etc. Garen is one of the only starter champs that is highly abused and has little counter play in the meta righ tnow because of the BC + Ult. I had 1400 health on Jayce, had Garen almost killed and nope, 800 true damage ult, at level 6 while building armor. There's ways to balance a champion and keep him noob friendly without making it being played outside of noob games horrendous.

Math says you're wrong.

To by hit by 800 true damage, at level 6

800 - 175 = 625 / .286 = 2,185 would be the amount of missing HP you'd need in order for his ult to hit the aforementioned 800 mark.

AkeneroJan 12, 20161 votes

Kha zix is REALLY not a starter champ Ryze has fucking q, which is un dodge able when snared, which is point and click, as is his e

Garen's fucking bullshit, yes, but he's got no hard engage and gets crippled by all this % hp damage that EVERYONE has

BharhashJan 12, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Often I Jayce,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=ETeMswBz,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-01-12T14:19:30.803+0000)

I realize this, but at the same time, people who have played for 2-3 years abuse the shit out of the 1k ult for true damage. That's when it becomes a problem. If we need champs for new players, then turn the damage down, because in the hands of a seasoned player, it's really toxic.

Okay, as one of those 2-3 year players of Garen, I have to point out several things to you.

(And I have to keep repeating this) In order for Garen to hit you for 1k damage with hit ult, you have to a) be the Villain and b) be missing;

Rank 1 3000~ HP Rank 2 2000~ HP Rank 3 1200~ HP

And there are plenty of other champs who can burst you down faster than that anyways, without needing True Damage.

I played a game last night (lost it for stupid reasons) but the first guy to pick his champ picked Garen. And you know what I did? I smiled and picked Gnar.

I'm gonna give you three guesses how that game for Garen.

Trust me when I say that Garen has a LOT of counters and is hardly this unstoppable juggernaut (no pun intended) that people are making him out to be.

TerntJan 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Okay, as one of those 2-3 year players of Garen, I have to point out several things to you.

(And I have to keep repeating this) In order for Garen to hit you for 1k damage with hit ult, you have to a) be the Villain and b) be missing;

Rank 1 3000~ HP Rank 2 2000~ HP Rank 3 1200~ HP

And there are plenty of other champs who can burst you down faster than that anyways, without needing True Damage.

I played a game last night (lost it for stupid reasons) but the first guy to pick his champ picked Garen. And you know what I did? I smiled and picked Gnar.

I'm gonna give you three guesses how that game for Garen.

Trust me when I say that Garen has a LOT of counters and is hardly this unstoppable juggernaut (no pun intended) that people are making him out to be.

I play Jayce pretty often top, and it hardly feels like a "skill" match-up. It's why I said I've played it every way I can against Garen and no matter what he can always out damage me. Harass and keep him off farm, still snowballs. Freeze lane and farm comfortably, still snowballs. Get a lot of ganks from duo jungler, still snowballs. I can shut him down in lane, but it doesn't matter if the game isn't over before 20 minutes, he goes unkillable. Especially if your ADC didn't choose a mid-game ADC like Vayne to deal with him, which in Solo Queue cannot be relied on.

BharhashJan 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Often I Jayce,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=ETeMswBz,comment-id=0001000000010000,timestamp=2016-01-12T14:37:53.500+0000)

I play Jayce pretty often top, and it hardly feels like a "skill" match-up. It's why I said I've played it every way I can against Garen and no matter what he can always out damage me. Harass and keep him off farm, still snowballs. Freeze lane and farm comfortably, still snowballs. Get a lot of ganks from duo jungler, still snowballs. I can shut him down in lane, but it doesn't matter if the game isn't over before 20 minutes, he goes unkillable. Especially if your ADC didn't choose a mid-game ADC like Vayne to deal with him, which in Solo Queue cannot be relied on.

So what I'm getting out of this post if that you're beating Garen just fine, but that your teammates are dumb and let him feed off of them.

Garen is, and a lot of champs who get shutdown, like a Nasus; just because you shut him down in the laning phase and take his tower early does NOT mean you can ignore him. Otherwise he will farm back up and then start picking off squishies. And if you're doing well and your team is doing well, that just translates to more gold.

Any champ top who can quickly proc Thunderlord's Decree (Gnar, Kennen, Riven) is going to give Garen a really hard time. Gnar is like the worst thing ever for Garen, especially if Gnar has MS quints and masteries. He will always stay just out of reach and will do all of the damage to Garen.

TerntJan 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

So what I'm getting out of this post if that you're beating Garen just fine, but that your teammates are dumb and let him feed off of them.

Garen is, and a lot of champs who get shutdown, like a Nasus; just because you shut him down in the laning phase and take his tower early does NOT mean you can ignore him. Otherwise he will farm back up and then start picking off squishies. And if you're doing well and your team is doing well, that just translates to more gold.

Any champ top who can quickly proc Thunderlord's Decree (Gnar, Kennen, Riven) is going to give Garen a really hard time. Gnar is like the worst thing ever for Garen, especially if Gnar has MS quints and masteries. He will always stay just out of reach and will do all of the damage to Garen.

I know how to play around them, I just never win games versus them and it's annoying. I neuter them early and deny everything I can as well as harass them, but regardless the game gets out of control and he gets fed and gg. Versus Nasus is the same way, I freeze farm under my tower to the point where they have less than 100 stacks at 10, but then I get ganked and die going for a kill, okay no big deal. I had a game where my jungler then pushed the wave to his tower and he froze it and farmed up to 250 at 20. I just hate the fact that you can't ever take them out of the game and make them a non-threat. Very rarely do I lose lane when I play Jayce, in terms of CS or kills, but so many times they just end up catching back up and becoming impossible to kill. You can't split push in Silver 2-1, because you die and get nothing else on the map. I'll have 3 people chasing me top and my mates are all farming jungle camps. Even games I snowball hard I lose because Trundle wants to 1v5 or Leona thinks locking somebody down, stunning and ulting them with no dmg around is a good idea. It's frustrating that I can't play to my strengths on a champion because their are champions that don't require you do even remotely well early to still carry a game.

BharhashJan 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Often I Jayce,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=ETeMswBz,comment-id=000100000001000000010000,timestamp=2016-01-12T14:59:08.909+0000)

I know how to play around them, I just never win games versus them and it's annoying. I neuter them early and deny everything I can as well as harass them, but regardless the game gets out of control and he gets fed and gg. Versus Nasus is the same way, I freeze farm under my tower to the point where they have less than 100 stacks at 10, but then I get ganked and die going for a kill, okay no big deal. I had a game where my jungler then pushed the wave to his tower and he froze it and farmed up to 250 at 20. I just hate the fact that you can't ever take them out of the game and make them a non-threat. Very rarely do I lose lane when I play Jayce, in terms of CS or kills, but so many times they just end up catching back up and becoming impossible to kill. You can't split push in Silver 2-1, because you die and get nothing else on the map. I'll have 3 people chasing me top and my mates are all farming jungle camps. Even games I snowball hard I lose because Trundle wants to 1v5 or Leona thinks locking somebody down, stunning and ulting them with no dmg around is a good idea. It's frustrating that I can't play to my strengths on a champion because their are champions that don't require you do even remotely well early to still carry a game.

What all this says is that YOU don't have a problem with Garen. Your TEAM does.

TerntJan 12, 20162 votes

{quoted}

What all this says is that YOU don't have a problem with Garen. Your TEAM does.

But the point is that no champion should be able to recover within minutes of being dominated. Sure they should be able to come back if the game drags on, but if you're down 40 CS as Zed vs anybody, and given time to farm up, yeh you're going to catch up eventually. The fact you can't build much to counter Garen's build (or any tank build really) now is really stupid. Like the game I had in mind where my Garen was significantly lower than me in levels and CS, as well as me being up a kill, then TP'd bot and got a double. After that, he finished his first item and was unkillable. Also, I meant to post the Bronze thing to the kid above, mb.

IsmokeOreganoJan 12, 20161 votes

I played against a garen yesterday (as renekton) and i was able to stomp him. Bully him out of getting cs and actually didn't let him on the farm at all. When shaco came to gank it was 1-2 kills for me, i was level 9 and he was level 5 when i took his turret. After team fighting and late game that garen came back tot he point he could beat me 1v1. Largely due to the poor bottom lane i'm sure but it seems like all he needs is 1-2 items to become ridiculously powerful (not to say that renekton doesn't i was building damage not tank)

TerntJan 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I played against a garen yesterday (as renekton) and i was able to stomp him. Bully him out of getting cs and actually didn't let him on the farm at all. When shaco came to gank it was 1-2 kills for me, i was level 9 and he was level 5 when i took his turret. After team fighting and late game that garen came back tot he point he could beat me 1v1. Largely due to the poor bottom lane i'm sure but it seems like all he needs is 1-2 items to become ridiculously powerful (not to say that renekton doesn't i was building damage not tank)

That's what I am saying though. I've played that style before and regardless he can 1v1 me by 20 minutes. I was up 30 CS in lane, because I harassed him the entire early game when he would go for creeps and would Q>E combo in Hammer to knock him off CS and apply some damage. I get top tower, put a yellow in the bush by gromp and my pink in blue bush, I've gotten a Youmoos and a B.F. at this point, at full health and get solo killed by him with only have a sunfire cape. You're also in Bronze 5 which is a huge difference from Silver 2-1.

BharhashJan 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Often I Jayce,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=ETeMswBz,comment-id=00010000000100010000,timestamp=2016-01-12T14:50:49.934+0000)

That's what I am saying though. I've played that style before and regardless he can 1v1 me by 20 minutes. I was up 30 CS in lane, because I harassed him the entire early game when he would go for creeps and would Q>E combo in Hammer to knock him off CS and apply some damage. I get top tower, put a yellow in the bush by gromp and my pink in blue bush, I've gotten a Youmoos and a B.F. at this point, at full health and get solo killed by him with only have a sunfire cape. You're also in Bronze 5 which is a huge difference from Silver 2-1.

Uh, I ended last season Silver 3, which was me not playing at all from Season 4 where I ended Silver 1. Don't assume shit.

IsmokeOreganoJan 12, 20161 votes

I don't play ranked, i have a total of 13 wins and 15 losses in season 5 mostly because i didn't understand how ranked worked, like preliminaries and placement games and so on.... anyways, the point being my skill level is a lot higher (i know people say that all the time but i've been playing since season 2 trust me) and even then you'd think well if i'm so good and playing bronzies i should stomp them, and i do. But then 20 minutes later not so much (so far as garens and nasus's go anyways) gonna start playing ranked now in season six since i don't have to worry about bullshit random pick order and getting no say in the bans

TerntJan 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I don't play ranked, i have a total of 13 wins and 15 losses in season 5 mostly because i didn't understand how ranked worked, like preliminaries and placement games and so on.... anyways, the point being my skill level is a lot higher (i know people say that all the time but i've been playing since season 2 trust me) and even then you'd think well if i'm so good and playing bronzies i should stomp them, and i do. But then 20 minutes later not so much (so far as garens and nasus's go anyways) gonna start playing ranked now in season six since i don't have to worry about bullshit random pick order and getting no say in the bans

Ranked is less about pure skill than just awareness of the game. I have friends in Bronze 4-2 who aren't bad on certain champs, but they don't ward, can't CS, etc.

IsmokeOreganoJan 12, 20161 votes

i know what your'e saying, but i ward. I cs. I leash my jungler the blue and gromp if he wants it. I can double jungle (before they fixed it) to get two people to level 2 pre minions. I know how to play objectively and not chase singed. I buy pinks and sweep for teemo shrooms. I can play every role very proficiently. I tp gank to other lanes rather than use tp to quickly get like 5 extra cs before garen shows up. I can freeze waves, i know when they will shove naturally or need my assistance. I know when to back door and when to split push and when to team fight. I don't build the same cookie cutter moba fire build every game. I play almost all the champs and love ARAM because of it. I have map awareness, i know counters to champions without even needing to play ranked to figure it out. I know when to play aggressive and when to play passive and farm, and not feed. I know when to try to take dragon and baron, and i know when it's a good idea to try to steal them. Most importantly i know when to take a kill and when to pass it to someone it will benefit more. I know the game very well, just never had the desire to play ranked. And even in my 28 ranked games w/ 13 wins 15 losses thats just about 50% win rate, which is completely normal. Not good, not bad, just...normal. If i put the time in to play ranked a lot i would climb i just don't care to until the new client launches. I remember when ahri was a new champion i've been around long enough to know how to play the game. But when did this become about me and not garen?

P.S sorry for the rant lol

TerntJan 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

i know what your'e saying, but i ward. I cs. I leash my jungler the blue and gromp if he wants it. I can double jungle (before they fixed it) to get two people to level 2 pre minions. I know how to play objectively and not chase singed. I buy pinks and sweep for teemo shrooms. I can play every role very proficiently. I tp gank to other lanes rather than use tp to quickly get like 5 extra cs before garen shows up. I can freeze waves, i know when they will shove naturally or need my assistance. I know when to back door and when to split push and when to team fight. I don't build the same cookie cutter moba fire build every game. I play almost all the champs and love ARAM because of it. I have map awareness, i know counters to champions without even needing to play ranked to figure it out. I know when to play aggressive and when to play passive and farm, and not feed. I know when to try to take dragon and baron, and i know when it's a good idea to try to steal them. Most importantly i know when to take a kill and when to pass it to someone it will benefit more. I know the game very well, just never had the desire to play ranked. And even in my 28 ranked games w/ 13 wins 15 losses thats just about 50% win rate, which is completely normal. Not good, not bad, just...normal. If i put the time in to play ranked a lot i would climb i just don't care to until the new client launches. I remember when ahri was a new champion i've been around long enough to know how to play the game. But when did this become about me and not garen?

P.S sorry for the rant lol

It was more or less me saying you're probably not bad, but usually people in Bronze just lack something that would change the game for them or make the climb easier. I got out of Bronze last season (my first season), and I attribute it to literally just warding more. I started playing Rek'Sai and from spamming 1 champ I just learned how to play the game better as far as decision making goes. But the ward coverage was definitely the greatest thing. So usually people in Bronze lack 1 or 2 core things like builds, wards, CSing, when to gank/when not to gank, wave management, etc. I understand that a lot of that got me out of Bronze and into high Silver, but I know what I lack to get to Gold. Even though I have bad teammates some games, which everybody does in all elos, it's definitely not the reason I can't get out of Silver.

AkeneroJan 12, 20161 votes

Yeaaahhhh

You haven't played garen for 2-3 years or you'd know his ult doesnt actually scale off amount of health missing, just the percent of their missing hp

Otherwise, you could theoretically ult a sion for 4K PLUS TRUE DAMAGE

and, just saying the hp thing, rank 1-4k hp total needed, that wont happen that early Rank 2-3k hp needed- possible but unlikely in ranks garen is good in Rank 3-2.2 k hp Evelynn level 18:2160 hp

BharhashJan 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Yeaaahhhh

You haven't played garen for 2-3 years or you'd know his ult doesnt actually scale off amount of health missing, just the percent of their missing hp

Otherwise, you could theoretically ult a sion for 4K PLUS TRUE DAMAGE

and, just saying the hp thing, rank 1-4k hp total needed, that wont happen that early Rank 2-3k hp needed- possible but unlikely in ranks garen is good in Rank 3-2.2 k hp Evelynn level 18:2160 hp

I'm pretty sure you said the exact same thing I did, just different words.

AkeneroJan 12, 20161 votes

And kindred? She has an auto- target q, which is impossible to dodge close range

CatastropJan 12, 20161 votes

I can't speak for Vlad, however, Garen's a starter champion. He needs to be easy for the newbies so that they can be comfortable playing in lane and not be confused by a bunch of mechanics.

PDE5 InhibitorsJan 12, 20161 votes

Point and click is the only way to deal with champs like Yasuo and Kalista. So no thanks on removing it.

MagicDragon300Jan 12, 20161 votes

Garen and Vlad are both weak in other areas though which stop them from being played at high levels often. Garen's passive can be nullified by poke and he really doesn't have any engage except for running at someone he wants to kill, which can leave him kite able and easy to peel off for any support or tank or whoever else who knows what they're doing. Vlad's issue is that his range is quite short, leaving him vulnerable to attack quite a bit when he wants to use a spell. His W also has quite the cooldown which means he could very well get ganked in the time it's down. Despite having targeted abilities, champs such as Garen or Vlad aren't broken at all, in fact, they have weaknesses that very well can be exploited by a player who knows what they're doing.

Troy242621Jan 12, 20161 votes

Garen is incredibly annoying but certainly not overpowered, and Vlad is pretty bad.

AkeneroJan 12, 20161 votes

Vlad has q and thats it Garen has ult

Go play smite

Colgate GatorJan 12, 20161 votes

The irony in this thread is that OP mains Jayce and he has 2 hammer point and click abilities and 1 gun ability that's basically "just auto the enemy"

TerntJan 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Postal Badger,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=ETeMswBz,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2016-01-12T20:34:27.037+0000)

The irony in this thread is that OP mains Jayce and he has 2 hammer point and click abilities and 1 gun ability that's basically "just auto the enemy"

The irony in this comment is you can't read. Re-read the title, you'll get it soon buddy, I believe in you.