It's not like i hate Lee or something . But for avarage player like me it has no SENSE . Lee can shut down most junglers now and he staying un-touched. Mean While you can kite skarner forver ever and he gettin nerf.
I would like to get deep explain WHY !?
They have the same speed clear . Lee is more moblie , brings alot utility + DMG . Skarner the same.. uhh
XuWarrior6 votesFnatic Cyanide quoute "There are three superior junglers in competitive LoL for months now and Riot nerfs Skarner ._."
Earl Eulrich5 votesthe sad truth is...noone (or at least only very few) will cry about a skarner nerf - while a Lee Nerf gets followed by ~10million "Lee Sin Mains" complaining. It´s all about politics, no reasoning involved at all.
Flemman3 votesI think lee is the "renekton for jungle" in riot eyes (or something like that) so they don't touch him.
But, again, today lcs result where he was in 4 of the 5 wining comps, show us that riot really need to do something quickly to buff the other without buffing him too (cause he is now on a nidalee/kassadin level before rework :s)
12tales2 votesJust gonna throw this out there, but Lee's 4/5 record today was just barely enough to salvage his pretty bad competitive win rate on 4.10. At the moment, he's sitting pretty at exactly 50% win rate in LCS/OGN. Alongside Elise, amusingly enough.
Skarner, meanwhile, has a 100% win rate in competitive[/deceptive statistics]
Earl Eulrich4 votesSkarner had been picked once, while Lee(and to some degree Elise) is at about 100% pick%ban throughout all major regions. And pros don´t play champs because they´re fun to play - but because they give them the best chances to win a match.
12tales6 votesYeah, hence "[/deceptive statistics]"
Competitive pick/ban stats are hilariously low sample size, for the most part. You can make almost anything sounds true using them. This is especially true if, instead of limiting yourself to single patches or weeks, you try to draw conclusions from individual days.
btw, Lee is at 89% P/B while Elise is at 72% P/B on 4.10. For the record.
Earl Eulrich2 votesI think if you take all regions into account the sample size isn´t that small at all - If a champion gets picked or banned in 380/400 (yea the number is a wild guess i admit, but he´s pretty much in every progame around the globe nontheless) games on the highest lvl of play...I think it clearly indicates that he is too powerful (especially considering he´s usually grabbed in the first 2 rotations).
12tales1 votesThat's a very wild guess. I can only speak for LCS and OGN, since they're the only leagues I watch, but you'll usually get something around 30-40 games per patch.
Still, I'm kinda bored atm, so here are the actual stats for those leagues.
Since the beginning of summer split LCS, there have been 139 games played in NALCS, EULCS, OGN Champions and OGN Masters. Lee Sin has been banned 46 times in those games - curiously, ~half of those bans were on 4.9, despite the patch accounting for ~a third of competitive play. Lee has been played in 84 of those games as well. This gives him a total pick/ban rate of 130/139, or 93.5%. For perspective - Jax has a 81% P/B rate, Kassadin has a 97% P/B rate, Twitch has a 77% P/B rate, Thresh has a 75.5% P/B rate, Lucian has a 84% P/B rate and Elise has a 78.5% P/B rate.
Interestingly, 4.8 is the only patch on which Lee Sin has a winning record. He had a 44% win rate on 4.7, a 36% win rate on 4.9, and is currently sitting on a 50% win rate on 4.10, as I mentioned earlier.
Now, if I were silly enough to draw conclusions from such statistics, I would probably see that Lee Sin does not tend to win games disproportionately, and that he has a relatively low ban rate, and conclude that he's not relatively powerful compared to league champions in general, but possesses qualities that make him particularly desirable in competitive draft pick. Perhaps he's a very safe champion to blind pick, or perhaps other champions that compete for his role are astonishingly lackluster, leaving him as the most viable choice in most situations by virtue of his peers sucking.
But wouldn't it be silly of me to try to draw conclusions from just over 100 games, played over four different patches? Especially if I were trying to use those past four patches to decide how powerful Lee Sin will be on a future patch that I haven't even seen yet.
Earl Eulrich2 votesThe thing is though, Lee doesn´t care about patches - he´s played for years now without ever dropping out of godtier in the jungle (though there had been one short period at the start of S3 when some people overreacted to a small nerf on his w and he had to be brought back by Insec).
If a patch isn´t directed specifically at him, I don´t see what big difference it should make to a champ with the perfect kit.
Also, they already adressed Kassadin with a huge change, twitch and jax both got a nerf and lucian is definitely on the to do list for them...so from all the high pick&ban champs in competitive-lol the only ones that don´t get adressed are elise and Lee.
Lee because they are afraid of the "Lee Sin Mains" (https://twitter.com/RiotMorello/status/483864535384616960) - and Elise because she´s one of the very few junglers on a similar lvl.
The Red Warden3 votesI still don't see why one of the most mobile characters in game gets that much damage, while having great sustain, durabity, and disables/displacement abilities. It just seems like his kit has everything a champion could ever need.
XuWarrior3 votes" When we made changes to Skarner back in patch 4.10, we had to tune down some of his offensive power in favor of his sticky Skarner-ness. Now that the loneliest scorpion has made his way to the live game, we're seeing he's still doing a lot of damage on top of his disruptive play so we're dialing him back just a bit.
Q - Crystal Slash
PHYSICAL DAMAGE 20/32/44/56/68 ⇒ 18/28/38/48/58
BONUS MAGIC DAMAGE 20/32/44/56/68 ⇒ 18/28/38/48/58
BONUS MOVEMENT SPEED +3/4/5/6/7% per stack of Crystal Energy ⇒ +2/3/4/5/6% per stack of Crystal Energy "
MeanWhile Lee doing all better
Cerbearus2 voteswell considering Skarner's win rate is 53-55% and Lee's is 46-48%...
XuWarrior4 voteswin rate does not mean evrything . I would like to see more data . Baan % , Division pick up etc
Angry Monster4 votesriot always says win data is not enough, hence lb nerfs.
Please do not play again
Oaklen2 votesNo idea, maybe they are scared because so many high end players got there via Lee Sin, and don't want to anger their top players?
MackleDoge4 votesThat is basically what Morello tweeted. Which I think is incredibly cowardly and sad, but not at all surprising.
Oaklen3 votesYea, but we got to remember not to just single out one Riot employee. I mean I'm sure it wasn't solo Morello's call. I mean he even stated he wanted to bring Lee back to a balance state aka nerfs. So I'm sure it was a group call to not go with the rework, even though he wanted to. I know they will do something to him, but it could be a while before they can sustain another massive attack of QQ's. I have faith in Nerf Master
MackleDoge4 votesOh no no, don't misunderstand. Morello literally tweeted exactly what you said. I think that the decision to not nerf him or work on him because of popular opinion is cowardly and bad for the game. Not Morello himself, I'm not bashing on him! Sorry that wasn't clear.
Oaklen3 votesIts fine, I should have read more into detail. Just so many people like to point and blame one person for the fault of many. Kinda like how our country works xD I think they will do something to him, I mean they know he is a issue and was on 4 out of the 5 winning teams in LCS
Flagrock1 votesThe reason why everyone complains about lee sin is the reason everyone complains about Lucian and Renek. They are the safe picks. It's as simple as that. Cry all you want, but every single role has the "safe" champion that is going to be average at everything. The reason why everyone complains about Lee Sin, is there is NO comp that he's terrible at. People might say this is "bad" balance, but let's take a step back.
The issue is not champions being a "jack of all trades" in the specific role like Renek, Lucian, or Lee, the issue is they do everything decent to strong. It's enjoyable to play a safe champ like Lucian because he has everything, but with having everything he needs to do everything WEAKER than the other champs. People complain about Lee Sin being "op" and having everything, yet Elise has a similar kit and no one whines about her...
tl;dr: Lee Sin isn't op, he's just a safe pick because of his kit. Stop hating on champions with well rounded kits and hate on the fact that other champions aren't better balanced in their niches.
deadlychuck1 votesYes, he is very well rounded, but to the point of being OP. No other champion can use all of their skills offensively and defensively, or have half of the utility of lee sin with the amount of damage he also has. The irony of your argument is that it would involve lee sin having less of some areas as other champions, by having a more rounded kit. He doesn't though. Tell me one situation where Lee Sin doesn't have a better kit than Xin, Trundle, Olaf, Aatrox or Yorick.
It also doesn't help that he is almost completely faceroll in terms of baseline difficulty. Yes a good Lee Sin player isn't going to be randomly mashing buttons hoping for the right outcome, but a new Lee Sin player will do just that, and see good results most of the time. His resource is far to easy to manage and his CDs are a joke. Even Elise has a 26 second CD on Repel Rank 1.
A bad Lee Sin has a high skill floor as a result of how versatile and fluid his kit is. A good Lee Sin has the highest skill ceiling in the game, because of how versatile and fluid his kit is. His kit is just to much, a bad Lee Sin over powers enemies by their champion just being so strong, and a good Lee Sin beats their enemies by having so much more in their kit that they can utilize. Most champions don't have utility on every single skill like Lee Sin does, and then in a strait fight Lee Sin beats a large portion of the champions in the game. HOW IS THAT BALANCED?
deadlychuck1 votesI say screw it, take Lee Sin's energy away. Give him Focus or Chi, he gains 20 resource on hit but it's permanent. Activating a skill gives him 40% attack speed for two attacks still, but now he has 0 resource regen. If he wants to use skills he has to auto attack. He can still combo, but after comboing if he didn't use any attacks he runs out. His skill cap still stays pretty much the same, but he skill floor is then lowered. A bad Lee might actually run out of resource, but a good one will manage it and rarely run out.
If people want to complain about a lower skill floor then they can screw off, they are the people who ride on the back of an over loaded kit and don't deserve to actually be getting the wins they do.