Can anyone answer why infuse was given a mana cost or why its offensive mana cost is different than its mana-battery mana cost?
Yes I get that chalice, particularly athene's, is toxic and Soraka needs a higher mana cost until that fix comes. However doesn't this change pretty much force her to rush said toxic item?
Also, is infuse going to be even worth it anymore if it has a mana cost attached? It is low damage, no hard CC, and now this.
CaptainWednesday4 votesBecause it was free damage for mid lane Soraka. I'm sure this is Riot's first step in bringing Mid lane Soraka in line, just as they did with Lulu.
MackleDoge2 votes.....Athene's is toxic....? Not entirely sure I'm seeing what you're seeing here, what's got you saying that?
Linna Excel2 votesToo ubiquitous to begin with. Too many stats given by one item even without the on kill passive. It also does a lot to undo the 2 main factor keeping mage's balanced: mana and cooldown.
If it didn't have cooldown or didn't add to your AP, I'd be fine with it.
MackleDoge1 votesTo each there own I suppose, I don't really agree with your opinion on it, but at least you have something to state to back it up.
Linna Excel2 votesWell, the two Chalice items are pretty much a 100% buy rate on Soraka. That's pretty rare in this game.
I'm also thinking that they are at least partly to blame for this, but I'm hoping to hear something official.
The only other reason I can think this change happened because enough people on GD complained for Soraka to get higher mana costs. This scares me more than chalice being OP on her and I doubt riot would ever admit this directly.
MackleDoge1 votesI'd say the infuse cost is most likely due to the no risk poke it provides for mid lane and top lane Soraka, with low to moderate use in most support Soraka instances (in comparison to the Heal and Starcall). I don't think that Soraka being a problem because of items is a fault of the item, that's like saying that the crit chance on IE and Shiv should be nerfed because together they give Yasuo max crit chance. That's Yasuo's kit, not a toxic item.
To me, it's hard to say Athene's is toxic when it is only an ideal buy on a handful of champions, not every champion. It's great on Ziggs sure, but if LB is going for straight damage assassination style of play getting Athene's is a terrible decision. It still has a decent cost point (perhaps a bit low for everything it provides) but it's clearly a laning/seige item as opposed to an obvious offensive choice. Just my take on the item.
Penguin Eclipse1 votesI see infuse used more often on support Soraka than I do top/mid Soraka.
MackleDoge1 votesLike I mentioned, it's just my opinion, I don't play Soraka nor do I see her very often. What I can say is that I see a lot more Soraka mid in Challenger than I see Soraka support, and I think all of us can agree that Riot tends to balance around competitive and the upper Diamond/Challenger area in ranked.
Knight Devout2 votesIt's too cost efficient, especially the Chalice of Harmony removes any mana gate early game. It's a fact that champions that don't need the cdr that badly also rush the Chalice because of the most efficient midgame, abandoning the potential better midgame/lategame they would have with a Archangel Staff/Seraph's Embrace.
Also,the cooldown reduction. 20% is really much, especially considering that , unlike Nashor's tooth or Morellonomicon ,is built with only one item that has cdr. Other 20% cooldown item aren't so effective for midlaners or , in general, offensive use. They would the Talisman of Ascension, Frozen Heart and Zeke's herald. The Morellonomicon and Nashor, while having a 20% cdr , lack the Mana font passive, and become less effective as the mana pool of the champion increases.
Basically, Athene's has no reason to have 20% cdr while not being a support specific item and not having 2 cdr items in its recipe.
MackleDoge2 votesAgain, as stated previously, just because it's built a lot doesn't mean it's bad. BT is built on almost every single ADC as the first item, that doesn't make it toxic. So how much it is built isn't at all relevant in my definition of a toxic item. I do agree that it's price point is probably too low for the amount of stats that it offers, but that isn't an issue of toxicity in an item that is just a numbers balance issue. I'm not sure if we are on the same page with what "toxic" means when applied to an item. For me it's an item that entirely breaks the game i.e. League of Warmogs, League of Cleavers, or an item that is so easily abused in certain issues it damages the fun of the game or the use of the item in other circumstances i.e. Elder Lizard when blue build Ezreal first started happening. I don't think Athene's is anywhere close to that problematic, which is why I'm not really agreeing with how it is being termed as 'toxic'.
Knight Devout1 votesBut Bloodthirster does exactly what you expect it to do: deals damage and gives Lifesteal. If nukers were still to build BT over Hydra, Botrk, and Ghostblade, even when those three items were more fitting with their role/purpose, then that could be sintomatic of an issue/overtuning of BT.
MackleDoge1 votesUhhh....you still see plenty of Zed with BT. If he isn't a "nuker" than I don't know what is. BT isn't just built on ADC's, but it is mainly built on ADC's. Athene's isn't built by every mid laner and for some of the mid laners that do build it they don't build it every time. That isn't toxic.
Knight Devout1 votesI also see plenty of Zed's with Botrk , because the active deals quite a punch with his ult damage increase , but even if the item isn't toxic, it doesn't mean it isn't too strong.
Also, from LoLking Zed runs botrk in 88% of his game.
MackleDoge1 votes....I can't figure out what part of this you aren't understanding. An item being used frequently isn't bad. An item being good at what it does isn't bad. An item being an integral part of a lane isn't bad. None of these things are bad. None of them. I can't even figure out what you're trying to say at this point.
Knight Devout1 votes....so , if , FOR EXAMPLE, (bear with me with this hyperbole), Doran Ring had such high mana regen that even adc started to pick it up because with it Lucian , Varus, and other powerful caster could be able to spam spells no-stop, only gated by cd, you would still say that Doran Ring was balanced?
Because that's more or less the point Chalice/Grail has reached. Only manaless and assassins champions don't pick it up.
MackleDoge1 votesReply Limit
I wouldn't mind the hyperbole if it at least was an accurate representation of the situation scaled out, but this isn't. This isn't a situation where an item that isn't meant to be built on a certain type of champion is being built on that champion because of how stupid broken the stats are. Your hyperbole is describing an entirely different issue, one that was embodied by the Elder Lizard on ADC's like Blue Ezreal and Ancient Golem the first few weeks after the pre-season 4 jungle changes.
Yet again, I'm going to keep saying this because for whatever reason you guys aren't understanding it, an item being built frequently isn't bad.
** isn't bad**
Also, that's not even true... Kayle mid usually doesn't build Chalice/Grail, and there are some Leblanc builds that also don't build it until second or third item at the soonest. Both of those champions are entirely viable and successful without that item.
I agree that Chalice/Grail is strong. I agree that it might deserve a slight price adjustment. I don't agree that it is a toxic item and I don't agree that it is OP.
Knight Devout1 votesIf you agree that it deserves a cost adjustment , then you agree that the item is not fine. Then all that we were arguing about was the use of "toxic" instead of unbalanced.
MackleDoge1 votesI agree that it might need a slight price adjustment
Might. I'm also of the opinion that Doran's Shield shouldn't cost as much as it does after it's nerfs. I think that BF Sword needs to be changed entirely to allow for a more steady build path for it's items. I think that there are actually a pretty good number of items where the price point is just a little bit off considering the build paths and the stats that it offers. That doesn't mean those items are broken and you don't get to tell me what my words mean. You clearly aren't even trying to understand, you're just doing whatever possible to smear your opinion on anything I say regardless of the amount of twisting it takes. If that is how you want to do things fine, but that's pretty absurd to me.
Knight Devout1 votesChill dude :D I'm not saying that Athene is the worst thing that ever happened in league, I'm just saying that it's a little too good for what it costs.
cooliomaster91 votesweird... i don't know...