Riot, can you please stop changing lores like this

Linna Excel··168 votes·3,458 views

This isn't a request or critique about a specific update. This is a discussion about the world building team making radical changes to a champion's lore.

All I want to say is this: please honor the original spirit, personality, and lore of a champion and when you go in to update it.

This is very important because personality matters to some players when it comes to liking a champion. I feel like I have to ask this because riot obviously isn't respecting these things and when you get an idea, you run with it without asking if it's a good idea for this champion. It's like you guys were given the keys to batman and went full ASBAR Crazy Steve with him.

If you want a champion with a trait or lore of X, Y, and Z and none of your champs are even close to what you want, that's your decision but please do that with new champions. I can't stress that enough. NEW LORES AND PERSONALITIES THAT DON'T EXIST IN LEAGUE BELONG ON NEW CHAMPIONS. Even reworks are sketchy when it comes to major personality shifts.

Poppy is a good example. It's not that her new lore is terrible, it's alright. However it isn't what her old lore was and personally speaking, I thought her old tough and determined yordle personality was a lot more interesting than the new her. Again, it's not bad but for me and some others it failed to capture Poppy.

Another example is Ahri .

For her we need to talk about the color pie test. What is the color pie test you might ask. Well it's pretty simple: look at magic's color pie. Each color stands for something about personality. So ask yourself does the color pie after the new lore match the one before the new lore. If the answer is no, if the answer is on the completely opposite side of the pie, you've made a yuuuuuuuuuuuge mistake.

Before Ahri's lore was butchered, I'd call her a white-green champion in terms of personality. She was something between an animal doing its thing (foxes are predators) and a human slowly learning responsibility, morality, and the nature of humanity. She was a like a kid without parents or education and had to learn a few things the hard way, because all she knew before was that meat is delicious. The new Ahri seems more red-black, a selfish emo. Going from Selesnya to Rakdos is a pretty big shift in personality. I could see, but not like, shifting her to gruul or azorious... azorious seems better given the direction of personal growth she was taking. Her going naya or bant or azuban would be an expansion of what's already there... the new color might work as a splash at best. It wouldn't be ideal, but it could work in a rare circumstance. However flipping her to the opposite side of the color pie is just wrong.

40 Comments

Ralanr23 votes

You do realize you can be tough and determined without being serious all the time right?

I get that people miss the no smile personality of old Poppy but that doesn’t mean they don’t have similar traits. They are still unflinching in their cause, Poppy just expresses not only hopes and joys, but fears.

You know, like a person.

Velzard of Koz10 votes

I don't know, old Poppy made me feel like she isn't nice and is willing to kill those who stand in way of what she deemed right. New Poppy makes me feel like she is nice and If you stand in way of what she deems right, she just pacifies you and still tries to do the smallest possible amount of harm - like with her ult.

Not that I would complain about new Poppy and not that this would be some analysis, it's just the theme feeling, but I find it easy to understand If someone deems old and new Poppy as two very different people.

Ralanr18 votes

Fair point and I agree they are different people. But not because new Poppy isn’t tough or determined. It’s because new Poppy feels more like a person who would talk with people without resorting to violence right away.

With old Poppy I tend to feel like she wanted people to fight her. Something really odd for an ambassador.

Velzard of Koz1 votes

True, I thought when he said tough he was pointing to that unbreakably serious attitude of old Poppy, but I see your point now.

Linna Excel7 votes

Well she was the iron ambassador. Sometimes the other party needs to know you aren't willing to take any shit or put up with any shenanigans. Diplomacy can take a lot of forms, better or worse.

Ralanr3 votes

Sure, but Poppy isn’t willing to put up with anything. No charisma.

Warlord Dienekes1 votes

Read up on Bismarck, the Iron Chancellor (got his start as an ambassador though). Hell yeah, he wanted people to fight him.

Generally regarded as one of the best politicians of the last two centuries.

Though in fairness here, Bismarck's charisma was second only to his intelligence.

Rozzeta1 votes

I always forget how Poppy did not smile after seeing her father get murdered by Noxian assassins. You know, like a normal person would.

Ralanr3 votes

Grief tends to limger but it doesn’t stop someone from cracking a smile later in life.

Cowseed1 votes

Poppy is more blissful ignorance than unflinching in my opinion.

Ralanr1 votes

Ignorance in herself but doesn’t give up in doing what she believes is right (finding the hero).

If it was just ignorance, she would have given up long ago.

Trading Aces11 votes

I personally love the new Poppy. However, you've got a solid point. The old Poppy was just a completely different character. The new Poppy is charming and adorable. The original felt far more serious. I think a better route for the new poppy - one truer to her original character - should've given her a Iron Lady sort of feel.

Linna Excel5 votes

Yeah. There's nothing wrong with the new Poppy. A lot of people like her and that's great.

However, I kind of miss the old steadfast yordle because I thought that was an interesting combination. A lot of yordles are lighthearted, even Veigar with his over the top comic villainy. Poppy stood out in an interesting way.

Atmospherix8 votes

I still cant get over what they did to Trundle. I loved his old model and lore, now its just oh hes the ice troll king. neat.

Linna Excel6 votes

Sometimes I think that was the start of riot's lore issues. Even if you wanted to make the argument it was correct in that instance and I'm not sure that it was, it set the precedent we are dealing with today.

Atmospherix7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=8N7N5Qsc,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2017-11-30T22:43:42.307+0000)

Sometimes I think that was the start of riot's lore issues. Even if you wanted to make the argument it was correct in that instance and I'm not sure that it was, it set the precedent we are dealing with today.

The way I see it is that they're fixing what isn't broken. As far as the Varus thing, it feels forced to me, the same way the Trundle change was.

Cavesloth8 votes

The one that really pissed me off was how Volibear went from a hero trying to protect his people who were actual bear people to a douchey war god who turns humans into were-bears. At least in this retcon Varus was still kind of a good guy who choose to take on dark power to avenge a wrong, he didn't totally switch from a good guy to bad guy.

Rayjay Redfang3 votes

In my opinion, when a champion gets a full vgu like with poppy or Urgot or galio, they are no longer the champion they once we're. In that case, a new lore is fine. For champions that don't get this like ahri, rengar, varus, and it changes them that is what I don't like. Personally I liked the old ahri rengar lore better, but changing it didn't change who they were like how the person who varus was is now gone.

HarrisonOwns3 votes

Who cares? It's a fucking MOBA.

Does the lore affect your game?

Blåbæret3 votes

{quoted}

Who cares? It's a fucking MOBA.

Does the lore affect your game?

This man speaks the truth.

SpecterVonBaren6 votes

This is the "Story, Art & Sound" section, what are you expecting to be discussed here? Your post is just as ridiculous as someone going into Meme's and Games and saying, "You think this is supposed to be funny?!"

HarrisonOwns2 votes

No, it's pointing out how ridiculous it is to be butthurt over what doesn't affect the game.

Who gives a shit if they change some inconsequential nonsense? No one who isn't a weeb.

SpecterVonBaren5 votes

You said, "Who cares? It's a fucking MOBA.

Does the lore affect your game?"

This section is dedicated to the discussion of STORY, art, and sound, and a discussion inherently implies the possibility of different opinions and possible disagreements, complaining about people giving their opinion in a place that is specifically made for that is foolish.

Hello I am Bird2 votes

Story doesn't affect gameplay, but it does affect ones enjoyment of the game. Just as in an action movie with a bad plot, you can enjoy the action for what it is, but you can still not enjoy it as much as you would because it's plot is shit.

Also, to say it's inconsequential is a bit presumptuous, just because you don't care about it doesn't mean that others don't. ######Especially when you say this shit in the STORY, art, and sound board

Linna Excel2 votes

There's a lot of reasons people come to like characters they play in a game. Lore, story, and personality are a factor in this.

Baron Von Bangin1 votes

Fuck it. Delete League. It wouldn't matter according to your logic. It's just a fucking game it won't affect your life.

Truth is, sonny, different people find enjoyment in different things. Imagine that!

Sexy Jack Rabbit3 votes

I don't give a fuck about the old lores of champions because frankly they all sucked. Ahri's and Poppy's old lores were fucking shit.

The new ones are creative, human and fun to read.

Fuck off with your nostalgia for a minute and acknowledge that old shit was shit for a reason.

Rivuo3 votes

It's 100% forced

Boop Daddy 3 votes

I miss old Galio. Used to onetrick him because I loved how serene and wisened he was (not to mention his kit had power in places people didn't expect). Dropped in like a rock after the vgu because his personality was butchered and his relationship with Durand retconned. That and his interaction with Zed's ultimate got butchered, and his sustain entirely removed, which were the main reasons why I took him mid.

DeadUnborn2 votes

When lore gets updated there is always going to be people that do not like it. You always have to balance not getting enough fans pissed while attracting new players to the champ.

For example, a big reason poppy wasn't played is that people did not find her concept appealing. She was too niche. By changing characters into something more apealing (galio, poppy, yorick) Riots gets to make more gamers happy. Again the issue lies in not alienating the base champ fans too much

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

I mean, technically, if we look at the bare bone basics, the core concepts are still there, just more emphasized.

TheHappyReaperz2 votes

Varus went from an avatar of vengeance to a Darkin avatar of vengeance. He is still technically motivated by the loss of those close to him, this time being his race vs old Varus's family. Seems like Riot kept the original spirit of the champion pretty well.

Poppystar2 votes

A champion rework is a complete tear down and rebuild of a character. Changing Poppy's lore was perfect because they also changed her model, her voice lines, and face. They wanted to test out their new expression technology and if she was stonefaced and serious all the time, her expressions wouldn't be as good. Also they wanted to showcase her hammer. Make the hammer huge. But why would she have a hammer so huge? Because its "not supposed to be hers" ok then they run with that idea of a modest character who can't see that she is truly the hero because the hammer doesnt even look like its supposed to be hers. Iron lady characters are so boring. Almost every female character in a serious game is a "i dont care who gets in my way but i'll crush them." I'm sure you can list league iron ladies right off the time of your head. League is trying to diversify their world. They want to add more personalities, more motives, stories, lore. They have a shit ton of old characters with lore that is so lackluster and filled with plotholes. I think Varus's old lore was generic. A typical revenge story. He lost his family so he kills people to avenge them. This new story is fresh and while people are pissed that his old character has been thrown away, this is a MOBA and nothing about his playstyle, his vo, or design has changed. So you can keep rolling with the old lore in ur mind if you want because it is no difference in game.

Xano5012 votes

RIOT made the right thing. With Ahri new lore, she can ship with MonkeyKing by without problem. And we prefer it.

PokladnicaZla2 votes

Don't you dare to shit on Ahri new lore.It's one of the best things RITO has done .

Did you even read Ahri's old lore? The ending statement is what her new lore is based on. _Feeding on their desires brought her closer to her dream, but as she took more lives, a strange sense of regret began to well within her. She had reservations about actions which never troubled her as a fox. When she realized she could not overcome the pangs of her evolving morality, Ahri sought out the most gifted mages on Runeterra, in hopes of learning to channel her evolution for good. _

Pyrodinium1 votes

Using Magic's Color Wheel in stories that are not about the Magic multiverse is a terrible notion.

The color wheel is meant to define characters through the boundaries Magic has as a game. Certain characters belong to certain colors according to the philosophies of the five colors. Note that the colors themselves are defined according not only to their narrative resonance but also their mechanical identity.

Magic stories take this system and run with it, since it fits the IP as a whole.

Trying to apply the color wheel to LoL characters is a shaky proposition at best, as their personalities are not molded according to the color wheel, the factions of Runeterra also don't work with a defined color identity, and each champion powers are not modeled according to their theoretical colors.

Linna Excel4 votes

Using Magic's Color Wheel in stories that are not about the Magic multiverse is a terrible notion.

If riot wants to come up with their own color wheel that's fine.

Here's the dirty little secret about the color wheel: Richard Garfield used it as sort of his take on the alignment axis to talk about things like good vs evil and order vs chaos. That's why it works. Because of this I think it's a useful tool in defining a character's goals, personality, and motives because it hits on a lot of topics and questions that can be used to explore a character. White vs Red is a question about order versus chaos. Blue vs Red is logic versus emotion. White vs Black is selflessness vs selfishness. And so on.

It's like the normal D&D alignment axis, but how its set up allows it a little more flexibility. Even if it isn't perfect, it's a very quick and easy test to see if you are in the ballpark for a character's personality. That's why I like it.

Pyrodinium1 votes

That is not a secret at all. It is in fact not even completely true.

Richard Gardfield's version of the color wheel was a pretty rough flavor-based categorization, based in traditional archetypes of magic (duh). Black magic associated with death, Green with nature and so on.

At that time it was not a system of alignment, as only two of the axis adequately matched a personality binary (WB was roughly Good vs Evil, while UR could be interpreted as either Passion vs Intellect, or even Chaos vs Law). The other colors represented conflicts that you can't really call 'personal alignment', like GB's Death vs Life conflict, or weren't even well defined at all, like BG.

You can see how, at that time, the colors didn't matched any specific philosophies by looking at cards, particularly legendary creatures, where we find WU barbarian-looking guys, White dragons with demonic appearance and so on.

Nowadays, of course, you can use the color wheel as an alignment system (I even made an extension for FATE for that specific purpose last year), but that is more due to the work of Mark Rosewater and the rest of the team in more recent years.

NineTailedMystic1 votes

While, I'm definitely not one who was... enthused with Ahri's new Lore, I wouldn't call it a butchering. It's certainly different from her old lore, but I'd definitely say she's Bant now in my own opinion, to put it in your terms.

ULTRAF0RCE1 votes

The thing is there are cases such as Shaco, Fiddlesticks, or old Eve where there is no proper actual salvageable part that could be said this is exactly what they are about.

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