Riot, I don't think diamond players like your reworks

Linna Excel··154 votes·26,004 views

stat sauce

Interesting stuff: Akali - 69.5% ban rate Irelia - 62.1% ban rate Urgot - 34.8% ban rate (he's the 5th most often banned champ in diamond+) Graves - 30.9% ban rate Aatrox - 30.2% ban rate Evelynn - 29% ban rate

There's 2 things those guys have in common: they are all highly banned in high elo and they are all recent reworks.

Just for grins here are some relatively newer champs with high ban rates as well: Kaisa - 36.2% ban rate Camille - 32.6% ban rate (going on 2 years old, she's my cutoff champ for "relatively new") Pyke - 26.3% ban rate (12th most banned champ in high elo)

For a company that balances around high elo, high elo players really don't like playing against champs that were recently made or reworked. It's not like we can blame all of this on CertainlyT either: he's only responsible for 1/9th of those flaming bat turds. Considering 9 out of the top 12 champs that are banned in diamond are recent additions or reworks, I think this stink is systemic. While riot can riot off people crying on the boards about game balance of late, I think that 75% of the ban in high elo being against newer champs speaks volumes about how riot's philosophy of champ design is taking a nosedive. The only other 3 champs on that list are Yasuo (CertainlyBS), Morgana (always OP), and Kass (always either OP or unplayable).

I think the diamond ban rates for newer champs and reworks are great case for arguing that riot doesn't know how to make or rework champions anymore. The best players in the game hate your recent works. For everyone who says that league isn't a fun as it used to be, I think we have at least one reason why: riot is releasing too much stuff that people hate playing against. What has riot done for us lately? Given us a crap load of headaches.

Rather than play or play against one of riot's new champs or reworks, the best players in the game are saying "no thank you" en masse. I think it's pretty clear that riot's reworks and newer champs are hurting league simply because people are actively banning the new stuff. Whatever riot is doing, the players aren't liking it.

PS. Sejuani, another champ riot decided to screw around with, is sitting on a 1% pick rate and 42% win rate. Nunu and Zac aren't doing much better. I'd like to call your gameplay designers clowns, but I think it's pretty clear shaco would be a better game designer than the lot of you posers.

159 Comments

Best Ekko NA96 votes

Well yea, they keep updating champions with these powerful kits while leaving the older champions outdated and weak. No player in the game wants to play against monsters like these when 80% of the champion pool isn't equipped to play against them.

Carnicore33 votes

I think that happens just because the kits of new/reworked champions are more thought out and have no glaring weaknesses. Compare any of these champions to someone like Master Yi or Wukong, there's no reason to pick them when other champions can sort of do the same things but without any of the problems that prevent those two from being viable.

Marshbouy13 votes

I think this is the real correct reason. Riot tries to make champions that aren't feast or famine-y like Yi or Wukong (if you CC either of them they're completely fucked) but in the process of doing that, they end up making them too well-rounded and without obvious counterplay.

Linna Excel27 votes

Okay, I can see this argument and I think it's a fair one. There are a lot of older champs that have trouble dealing with new ones. However that also means that there is a design creep of some kind going on here. As you implied, 80% of the champ pool basically needs a rework to keep up with modern designs. Given that it's impossible that riot is going to get everyone updated before their philosophy changes again, I can help but feel like riot made a mistake that's going to keep a large chunk of the champion pool at least 1 era behind the times.

If, like I predict, riot's philosophy changes again before all champs are up to date, that's going to leave the game in a perpetual state were 75% of the champs are out of date. Perhaps riot's bar was too ambitious for the game's long term good.

Vekkna29 votes

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The vast majority of reworks since the Juggernaut patch have either been total botch-jobs or created more problems than they solved.

My biggest bitch is that so much of the new shit is either input-heavy micro-skill checks or shackled to some tedious/cancerous gimmick. Examples:

Aatrox Akali AurelionSol Camille Fiora Gangplank Illaoi Irelia Katarina Mordekaiser Ryze Skarner Urgot Zoe Zyra Taliyah Kled Pyke

Tormentula16 votes

{quoted}

My biggest bitch is that so much of the new shit is either input-heavy micro-skill checks or shackled to some tedious/cancerous gimmick. Examples:

Aatrox Akali AurelionSol Camille Fiora Gangplank Illaoi Irelia Katarina Mordekaiser Ryze Skarner Urgot Zoe Zyra Taliyah Kled Pyke

Kindred Ivern Kalista

Some gimmicks can work but the problem is riot doesn't understand why they work or why something else doesn't work.

Skarner was their first evidence that you can't make an objective jungler healthy and viable at the same time. Either the objective passive handicaps him in most situations or the champ is broken enough to work around being able to contest the objectives uncontested because everybody knows to fuck off when they see him.

but then they released;

Kindred, which became the biggest bitch in this example because like skarner, kindred is either so fucking broken that they force you to aggressively ward mark camps, take those camps before them, or try to gank away from those marks knowing you will just feed them or waste your time anyway... possibly even losing gank opportunties because god forbid you let them get that mark spike, or so fucking shit that you can actually make them scared to walk into your jungle (or even lock in kindred) in the first place and be able to punish them for playing stupid, denying them the ability to carry at all.

Nothings more enjoyable in league of legends then being forced to lose the game just because a gimmick requires your constant attention to keep tabs on, for either team amirite.

Other gimmicks like Kalista just flat out makes the champion itself frustrating and unenjoyable. Its interaction only for her.

But I think gimmicks like Urgot aren't too bad the problem is just how overtuned he is in that he's probably the only top laner that can effectively counter the rest of the cancer up there. His ult is no more different of a gimmick then Cho, Garen, or Darius ult, but at least it offers counterplay being a skillshot. His gimmick is there for his gameplay, it works in a way that balances him out so him and the opponent can play around it (talking about the passive this bit). He has to manage it but he can still play around it, unlike say skarner who can't play around his spire only being in the river or near the buff camps or kindred which can't play around the enemy team warding the fuck out of their jungle to try and prevent them from taking marks in theirs.

Moody P6 votes

illaoi is one of the fairest champions in the game, you shouldn't be listing her

Vekkna25 votes

She falls into the "shackled to a tedious gimmick" category. She's either camped out near a wall or she's basically dogshit.

Elphrihaim1 votes

{quoted}

My biggest bitch is that so much of the new shit is either input-heavy micro-skill checks or shackled to some tedious/cancerous gimmick. Examples:

I don't have much disagreement with your general point, but I fail to understand-- What are these for Gangplank, Illaoi, Katarina, Mordekaiser, and Taliyah?

Gangplank's Powder Kegs don't seem either input-heavy nor cancerous to me and they're the only addition.

Illaoi's Test of Spirit might be tedious on part of the opponent, but I don't see how it's really different from other high payoff skillshots (the best example being Morgana's Dark Binding). You get caught and then suffer? And when playing as her, you do get stuck with having to deal with the similarly annoying get-these-tentacles-where-you-wanted-them as a result of her passive.

Katarina's dagger pickup is input heavy, but she always was due to the nature of low cooldowns with resets--- so I don't see how it is different (I also don't play Katarina).

Mordekaiser, I can only think of Children of the Grave as fitting the cancerous definition here, but that one wasn't new, so I completely fail to see how it qualifies.

Taliyah has her Q rings, which are obnoxious to work with, but I can't imagine that alone being a qualifier, since champions you haven't listed have interactions not dissimilar though often on smaller scales like Ivern, Kindred, Swain, Thresh, Alistar, Aurelion Sol, Bard, Gnar?

Vekkna5 votes

The barrels, tentacles, daggers, and Morde's W are all just gimmicky as fuck in my opinion.

Terozu6 votes

The daggers are no more ginmicky than Caut traps or Xayah passive.

Śhunpo5 votes

Yeah, Kat's gimmick is incredibly polarising and honestly idk why they still think that this iteration of hers is better besides "counterplay" being the basis, even though MORE players hate her now.

Sharpest glasses28 votes

This guy legit stopped playing lol since the rework of Aatrox

http://www.op.gg/summoner/userName=dontremakeaatrox

was number 2 or 3 of KR ladder

Power Cosmic11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sharpest glasses,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8QWrRuai,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2018-10-16T22:54:12.413+0000)

This guy legit stopped playing lol since the rework of Aatrox

http://www.op.gg/summoner/userName=dontremakeaatrox

was number 2 or 3 of KR ladder

So sad that Riot just did not care one bit when trying to cash-in on the re-release. It's even worse that they have not honestly apologized yet.

Power Cosmic4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sharpest glasses,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8QWrRuai,comment-id=000a00000000,timestamp=2018-10-17T09:35:18.959+0000)

Actually Jag said something like "FU old Aatrox mains"

[cass-cry]

Malix Farwin22 votes

High Elo? I am banning Akali in Low Elo lol.

wildfox9T20 votes

actually

For a company that balances _some champions _ around high elo

at this point they don't even try to hide it,they clearly want some champions in high elo/pro play (eg. Kaisa Akali Khazix) while others are balanced more around low elo complains

Carnicore6 votes

I think Riot just balances for platinum, and makes exceptions for high level play. Just think of all the champions that got nerfed in the last 5 patches without seeing any LCS play.

AirKingNeo18 votes

Revert aatrox

Bârd18 votes

Akali's rework is fine design wise, but she's definitely over tuned.

Irelia is the same way as Akali.

Urgot is Fiora 2.0. His new design is absolutely amazing, but some number tweaks to orient his builds more towards damage would not go amiss.

Graves can be balanced, but is cancer when he isn't balanced. He isn't currently balanced.

Aatrox has been changed in 5 patches/hotfixes since his rework, and in 4 of those he was buffed. It's no wonder he's too strong right now.

Eve is something that nobody has ever liked playing against just because stealth is annoying. That doesn't make Eve a bad design.

iTaLenTZ2 votes

Eve is something that nobody has ever liked playing against just because stealth is annoying. That doesn't make Eve a bad design.

The problem with Eve is that she cc-->kills you out of stealth. CCing out of stealth was something that was changed by Morello back in season 3 because it was considered toxic gamedesign with no counterplay. Yes Eve charms has a delay but still its cancer because you don't know the direction from where she is coming and might be running into her instead of away, get charmed and killed. To make it worse her R is an execution that also makes her untargetable and serves as an escape tool.

IP Masquerena2 votes

Um....when her charm is charged, you get an arrow pointing at her current location

iTaLenTZ2 votes

{quoted}

Um....when her charm is charged, you get an arrow pointing at her current location

LOL never noticed

kargish17 votes

Picking pre-2016 releases these days is practically handicapping yourself.

I met ya when Mordekaiser get his VGU in 2019 he'll be packed with CC and some gimmick mechanic that'll break the rules of the game.

TrevorAlu17 votes

They try to make new, interesting champions but just end up making cancerous shits that dash around the map dealing a bunch of damage or never dying.

Moody P13 votes

urgot isn't even an issue and it's entirely worlds hype

VG Crows6 votes

Ikr? he is not even that "recent" of a rework, has received no buffs at all, just QoL changes. In my honest opinion he is fine, decently strong but not overpowered. Just because he fairs well against most meta tops doens't make him overbearing. Ban rate is justified since the meta right now is mobile assassins which he destroys

Bârd31 votes
  • Knee CD reduced by 75% at later levels.
  • R missile speed increased by ~1000.
  • Q delay reduced by 0.25 seconds.
  • R2 self root removed.
  • Added a W duration pause during cast times.
  • Champion hitbox size reduced by 37.5%.
  • Base AS increased from "abysmal" to "low".

He's gotten a good deal of legit buffs.

Ætheist23 votes

{quoted}

  • Knee CD reduced by 75% at later levels.

That same buff came with making his knees unaffected by CDR, though, so it's not as big a buff as it sounds.

Moody P5 votes

and all of this still didn't let him see meta until he found a meta he worked into perfectly

but let's nerf urgot instead of realizing that the counters he has, while not necessarily great picks for pro play, are perfectly fine in a soloQ environment. then we can go back to complaining about how stale the meta is just like we always do lol

TheSingularity11 votes

Despite those changea, one of which was a neutral change.

Urgot really isn't the problem. As a playerbase we've had nothing but balostic micro play for 3 years straight. We're also in a meta where dive champs thrive.

Then we have urgot. A champion who's kit counters dive in every way. A champion that forces champions who want to dive in and get fed, to play safe and farm. In this way, hes just like heim or illaoi. You don't just jump into them. You whittle them down until there's nothing left. He can still miss 75% of his spells. Like heim and illaoi.

The counterplay is in dodging his q and r. Then adjusting your play style accordingly

Rock MD13 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8QWrRuai,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-10-16T19:22:38.929+0000)

For a company that balances around high elo, high elo players really don't like playing against champs that were recently made or reworked.

?

No they don't balance around high elo, lmao. They balance around pro play and casual play. Almost nothing is directed at high elo solo queue. If it was Graves, hell, the entirety of the jungle would've been nerfed decades ago.

Rock MD10 votes

I forgot to mention this a few hours ago but I like most of these champions. They're just too strong right now. I think a lot of high elos also think the same.

I think Urgot is cool. i think Kai'sa is cool. Pyke and Evelynn are neat. I liked Galio's rework as well and I also banned him when he was strong. Graves can die in a fire. Also you really can't fucking list him and then say, "btw Camille is pushing it". Graves rework is significantly older.

Corvo13159 votes

In my opinion (just a shitty low elo boi) i think they should take a season or two and stop making new champs and items and simply fix everything that is wrong with the game. They should stop adding to their "to-do" list and actually get to work fixing the broken stuff. Stop adding new op champs, stop nerfing the stronger champs and buff the weaker champs to where they are all viable and on the same playing field. Then pick back up once everything is fixed. This would doubly allow people some actual time to come up with new methods of play and new strategies, since instead of constantly conforming to the changing meta, we would actually have time to get used to a meta and fully sink our teeth into a single patch and get the most out of it. The constant rate at witch they patch is great, but it also sucks in some regards...

Daddy Ants8 votes

Pyke: My gameplay is oppressive and my ban rate is going up but they keep buffing me.

Krully6 votes

git gu.. oh wait

CIayman5 votes

Akali is in the boat of Yasuo. They're "not fun" to 1v1, but a lot of people ban them because they don't want one on their team. In fact, I'm pretty sure Akali is banned for the second reason far more often than the first. Shit champion.

Power Cosmic5 votes

No one likes most of them. Their team has lost grasp of a important type of scaling that isn't AD or AP. Kits' effectiveness throughout the game is the most fundamental scaling in LoL.

Panth, for example, has a great kit for early game but no matter what (besides the absurd dmg now) it becomes a lot riskier and its effectiveness generally weakens over the course of a game. A lot of champs are like that... Ones that were designed for an actual MOBA. A cool champ made well is Ekko, bc whatever you build (AP, Bruiser, Tank, etc), you have to make real sacrifices.

Champs like Newtrox, have kits that scale infinitely bc they are designed to be effective at all points of the game. So the advantage they inherently possess just keeps getting larger bc the effectiveness of the kit itself never stops scaling. For even Nocturne he shines the brightest right around is first few ults, and every game is different, but ults get a lot more dangerous and selective as the game goes on. This should be basic knowledge for someone working on the game. Kits like Aatrox can only be good all game, or bad all game, hence they are very poor design.

Ætheist7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Power Cosmic,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8QWrRuai,comment-id=001d,timestamp=2018-10-17T07:24:35.533+0000)

Champs like Newtrox, have kits that scale infinitely bc they are designed to be effective at all points of the game. So the advantage they inherently possess just keeps getting larger bc the effectiveness of the kit itself never stops scaling. ... Kits like Aatrox can only be good all game, or bad all game, hence they are very poor design.

Funny that you say this considering new Aatrox falls off as the game progresses, as I've seen mentioned in multiple threads. He can remain relevant with his disruption, but his kill potential falls. Kinda like Pantheon, except Aatrox's falling off is rolling down a gradual slope rather than Pantheon's falling straight off a cliff.

NanoFlameZero5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8QWrRuai,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-10-16T19:22:38.929+0000)

stat sauce

Interesting stuff: Akali - 69.5% ban rate Irelia - 62.1% ban rate Urgot - 34.8% ban rate (he's the 5th most often banned champ in diamond+) Graves - 30.9% ban rate Aatrox - 30.2% ban rate Evelynn - 29% ban rate

There's 2 things those guys have in common: they are all highly banned in high elo and they are all recent reworks.

Just for grins here are some relatively newer champs with high ban rates as well: Kaisa - 36.2% ban rate Camille - 32.6% ban rate (going on 2 years old, she's my cutoff champ for "relatively new") Pyke - 26.3% ban rate (12th most banned champ in high elo)

For a company that balances around high elo, high elo players really don't like playing against champs that were recently made or reworked. It's not like we can blame all of this on CertainlyT either: he's only responsible for 1/9th of those flaming bat turds. Considering 9 out of the top 12 champs that are banned in diamond are recent additions or reworks, I think this stink is systemic. While riot can riot off people crying on the boards about game balance of late, I think that 75% of the ban in high elo being against newer champs speaks volumes about how riot's philosophy of champ design is taking a nosedive. The only other 3 champs on that list are Yasuo (CertainlyBS), Morgana (always OP), and Kass (always either OP or unplayable).

I think the diamond ban rates for newer champs and reworks are great case for arguing that riot doesn't know how to make or rework champions anymore. The best players in the game hate your recent works. For everyone who says that league isn't a fun as it used to be, I think we have at least one reason why: riot is releasing too much stuff that people hate playing against. What has riot done for us lately? Given us a crap load of headaches.

Rather than play or play against one of riot's new champs or reworks, the best players in the game are saying "no thank you" in mass. I think it's pretty clear that riot's reworks and newer champs are hurting league simply because people are actively banning the new stuff. Whatever riot is doing, the players aren't liking it.

PS. Sejuani, another champ riot decided to screw around with, is sitting on a 1% pick rate and 42% win rate. Nunu and Zac aren't doing much better. I'd like to call your gameplay designers clowns, but I think it's pretty clear shaco would be a better game designer than the lot of you posers.

My biggest issue is the increase in kit complexity with each rework and new champion. They are creating/updating champions for LCS level players which is fine but when you rework every champion to increase the kit complexity you are reducing the number of champions that an average solo q player can use.

GreenLore4 votes

Actually a lack of complexity is likely the reason for many of these reworks in the first place.

Because a lack of complexity also leads to a lack of counterplay(if you can't screw up an ability,then there is no way your opponent can outplay it).

Granted I do agree that riot tends to go overboard with the complexity of some of these reworks,but its certainly understandable,that these champs get more complex with them.

NanoFlameZero3 votes

{quoted}

Actually a lack of complexity is likely the reason for many of these reworks in the first place.

Because a lack of complexity also leads to a lack of counterplay(if you can't screw up an ability,then there is no way your opponent can outplay it).

Granted I do agree that riot tends to go overboard with the complexity of some of these reworks,but its certainly understandable,that these champs get more complex with them.

Agreed, they are going a little overboard with the complexity.

Thilmer4 votes

Mobility creep and power creep all over the place, as simply as that.

Trying to play an older champion rigth now is borderline trolling unless you are an OTP.

They should either:

-Rework champions much faster. No, I don't want to wait 4 seasons until you rework my champion and give him something to compete with these monsters.

-Stop putting clearly overpowered bullshit in every champion they rework.

Eleshakai4 votes

Actually sounds like the opposite then... they like them too much that they know someone on the other team will pick it before they can.

clickhead3 votes

I think it's because they got better at designing good champions, which in turn means that the more recent kits are more cohesive. Older champions often have different conflicting identities, such as Varus. Is he an AD early game bully poke champion? An AP late game hypercarry? Who the fuck knows? Every once in a while when they stars align (due to nerfs, buffs, item changes, etc), these champions with older kits can be extremely powerful, but are usually quickly nerfed which immediately makes them perform fairly poorly.

When you have kits that are less cohesive, you often end up with an overpowered monstrosity, or an unviable abomination. They usually pick the latter, and rightfully so, which makes recent champions the most highly banned champions on average.

GigglesO1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8QWrRuai,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-10-16T19:22:38.929+0000)

stat sauce

Camille - 32.6% ban rate (going on 2 years old, she's my cutoff champ for "relatively new")

I mean "relative" starts when you say it does...

For me Yasuo is still "relatively new"

His design is basically the paradigm of newer champions.

Mobility + Damage Ability that allows you to conditionally reduce damage (or heal). Gimmicks (yasuo is 100% crit, pyke is sharing gold/etc, akali is shroud)

Karakot2 votes

I’m sorry, but isn’t every champion supposed to have a gimmick, something that makes them unique? Why in the world would we want all champions to be the same and not have cool gimmicks...

GigglesO5 votes

Yea, but when your gimmick is to dash burst someone and then get free outs it is a balance issue.

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