Can you have the Player and Moderation team do a youtube video about meta-breaking, a minimal standard on communication (assuming no VOIP because no ingame VOIP), and what should and shouldn't be reported?
There's always is going to be some people who want to do their thing in a non-troll manner. Can we get a thoroughly explained baseline on these things?
RiotGhostcrawler135 votesYes, this is a good topic for us to address in a blog or video. Thanks for the suggestion.
Aptest36 votesjust to be clear:
"if the team does not agree, follow the team" is well outside the summoner's code.
also to be clear:
I want riot's official position (what you did, not what you said) to change
Alorrin016 votesMore importantly, do these meta breaking rules apply only to supports? When APC ziggs was big I didn't hear about bans for playing him. I've never heard about bans for afk farming junglers or split pushing tops.
Glory ln Death14 votesThe support Singed and Nunu bans were to 1 player each because that was the only thing they were doing, every game, and they refused to even consider their team mates.
It wasn't the fact that they broke the meta or what position they were in, it was the manner in which they went about it. That's why the idea for a blog post or video is a good idea - to let people know the right way to do it, rather than just trampling over their team mates.
The Singed guy is still playing Support Smite Singed, but he's doing it the right way now, so he hasn't gotten punished again.
ADC Ziggs and other off-meta picks didn't get banned because there was nobody one-tricking it every single game and forcing it down their teams' throats.
Death by Glamour5 votesHe was a nunu one trick but he mained jungle and was only banned for what he did when auto filled as support.
Golden Tager X12 votesHe queued for support primary and jungle secondary, know the facts before making judgements.
Angrychickén7 votesThere is a large difference, as GID said, in only playing one thing whether or not people want you to, or whether you ask people first.
"I'm playing nunu smite support, I'll be roaming and stealing enemy jungle camps, and I will spend some time with adc, You guys cool with that?"
"I'm playing nunu smite support, you can either deal with it or go jack off."
See the difference?
Because there is one.
jaymc11303 votes[{quoted}](name=Abzan Lord,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9E2qEu5O,comment-id=000d000100010002,timestamp=2017-03-01T18:49:09.468+0000)
There is a large difference, as GID said, in only playing one thing whether or not people want you to, or whether you ask people first.
"I'm playing nunu smite support, I'll be roaming and stealing enemy jungle camps, and I will spend some time with adc, You guys cool with that?"
"I'm playing nunu smite support, you can either deal with it or go jack off."
See the difference?
Because there is one.
So your solution is to ban any one who one trick ponies because that's essentially what they do and this is essentially what you are saying.
Really really really dumb argument.
Angrychickén4 votesThere is a difference between off-meta pick (Such as a full ap Alistar mid) and an off meta role (Like this) I in no way intend to ban one tricks, but the way you force people into playing a certain style, such as the 1v2 bot lane.
I don't care if you are a one tricktryndamere and we can only win by splitpushing, that doesn't force the other players to have to adapt to your double jg role.
jaymc11305 votes[{quoted}](name=Abzan Lord,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9E2qEu5O,comment-id=000d00010001000200000000,timestamp=2017-03-01T20:20:34.486+0000)
There is a difference between off-meta pick (Such as a full ap Alistar mid) and an off meta role (Like this) I in no way intend to ban one tricks, but the way you force people into playing a certain style, such as the 1v2 bot lane.
I don't care if you are a one tricktryndamere and we can only win by splitpushing, that doesn't force the other players to have to adapt to your double jg role.
No, it forces them to adapt to having to play 4v5 all game...
There is zero difference between these two things and that is why all you folks with this same argument keep failing when you make it. In BOTH situations players are forced to play a non standard style to win without the option of playing a standard style (because it would be ineffective and lose).
Stop using this argument, we've debunked it as a false argument a hundred times already.
Angrychickén2 votesFirst of all, where have you debunked it as false? I actually want to know. Second, Nunu support only works under those descriptions, no other way to play. Whereas Tryndamere can teamfight, it is hard, but I have seen it done. And Thirdly, there is a major difference between I'm going to go splitpush and do my job, instead of saying, Hey I'm going to abandon the adc and go steal some jungle camps.
Tryn doesn't force, although it is easier
Nunu sup does, because otherwise it is sub optimal.
Also, people that refuse to even think about the other four people on their team should be banned, be they one tricks or not.
Rip Rengo 20161 votesYour opinion is only the way it is because of what the meta has been. The point is, whether you are counter jungling as a support or split pushing as a top laner, you not being with the team puts stress on the other 4 players, whether 1 strategy is more viable or not. The feelings are typically the same.
Angrychickén2 votesBut the top laner has a way back to the team, in either teleport or quin ult or any of the many global abilities.
The support just decides to leave and farm the enemy jungle.
Another point I have for take the draw if he is out there, what did you do if the enemy jungle found you while you were taking blue or something?
Casual Dude36 votes[deleted]
Dextix LT14 votesSo what does the Nunu (Take The Draw) do? He is ONLY good at this playstyle.
Learn others? Just like everyone else? I hate this kind of mentality "Oh x plays x champion only, he should do that all the time despite anything else" It is propagating lazyness. In the old days you had to know ALL roles at least decently to play well.
These days it seems everyone is spoiled and will play 1 champ only no matter what.
Why does EVERYONE else have to conform to ONE person? We used to call that bullshit out, but now its good?
These are just excuses for not wanting to get better or to work with teams.... The community has changed for the worse it seems....
Casual Dude11 votes[deleted]
Dextix LT8 votesHis gameplay IS democaracy, because this is a TEAM GAME. You do not play alone, you have 4 other people on YOUR TEAM. Also, you can do both of those things as NUNU, while actually SUPPORTING the adc, i saw IVErns do that, i do that myself as a NUNU too. What he does, is just counterjungle. He does not support AT ALL, he leaves his adc 1 vs 2 for the entire game.
I can call out his bullshit on the FAQ, because that is not what he does. Because if he was indeed playing the support counterjungle hybrid, he would stay in his lane, and sometimes go out to counterjungle and steal some camps.
What he does, is playing ONLY counterjungle, without the support anywhere in sight. He is constnatly counterjungling and the lane is left 1 vs 2, which for adc means that he not only gets shut down, but also becomes useless for the team.
I have personal agency to play AP garen, this does not mean i should or that others should go with that pick loke nothing wrong is happening. You can have your fun, but not at the expense of others.
Casual Dude18 votes[deleted]
jaymc11306 votes[{quoted}](name=Casual Dude,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9E2qEu5O,comment-id=000d00030000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-01T09:28:13.455+0000)
It's unequivocally not a democracy. His team can suggest picks and strategy, but there's a reason ultimately he's the one choosing his champ. There's a reason it's not Captain's Draft. These suggestions can be considered, but they never encroach on his personal agency in his gameplay.
Supporting does NOT mean babysitting the bot laner all game (in fact, ADCs are not mandatory either). In fact, there is no official definition of support, so that gives him wide latitude. As long as he's making choices that he thinks will increase the win-expectancy for his team, I don't see how that's not supporting. He puts pressure that is lost bot lane elsewhere. You cannot say that doing so is a net negative to his team. You are not entitled to - and games do not have to have - symmetrical matchups.
^
Dextix LT5 votesIt is a TEAM GAME it is by DEFINITION, a DEMOCRACY, because the TEAM makes the decisions. ONE person does not TRUMP over FOUR! Your choice affects the game of the TEAM. SO if your choice is innefective for example (Ap garen) you are negatively affecting your team. You can choose many things, but you still have to consider your TEAM because its a TEAM GAME, not SINGLE PLAYER.
Supporting does not mean you are the adcs slave, however you SHOULD stay and help the adc, because that is the MOST EFFECTIVE support strategy currently. I sometimes go support TOP laners, and those choices have won me many games.
However this guy NEVER changes his strategy based on his situation, he always does the SAME THING. Amd he puts the pressure nowhere usefull, because the adc is far more important than a strategy that MIGHT work POSSIBLY. I can say that it is a NET negative for the team, because this kind of strategy is harder to implement, needs more coordination and has uncertain rewards for the team, while also creating negative experience for other players (the adc for example) who wanted to have a simple normal game for a change instead of needing to try and survive getting pounded in 1 vs 2 sittuation THEY DID NOT SIGN UP FOR.
jaymc113010 votes[{quoted}](name=Dextix LT,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9E2qEu5O,comment-id=000d000300000000000000000001,timestamp=2017-03-01T09:41:59.748+0000)
It is a TEAM GAME it is by DEFINITION, a DEMOCRACY, because the TEAM makes the decisions. ONE person does not TRUMP over FOUR! Your choice affects the game of the TEAM. SO if your choice is innefective for example (Ap garen) you are negatively affecting your team. You can choose many things, but you still have to consider your TEAM because its a TEAM GAME, not SINGLE PLAYER.
Supporting does not mean you are the adcs slave, however you SHOULD stay and help the adc, because that is the MOST EFFECTIVE support strategy currently. I sometimes go support TOP laners, and those choices have won me many games.
However this guy NEVER changes his strategy based on his situation, he always does the SAME THING. Amd he puts the pressure nowhere usefull, because the adc is far more important than a strategy that MIGHT work POSSIBLY. I can say that it is a NET negative for the team, because this kind of strategy is harder to implement, needs more coordination and has uncertain rewards for the team, while also creating negative experience for other players (the adc for example) who wanted to have a simple normal game for a change instead of needing to try and survive getting pounded in 1 vs 2 sittuation THEY DID NOT SIGN UP FOR.
This has been repeated to you like 16 times so far.
Here goes 17.
Who are YOU to decide what Take the Draw gets to sign up for? You're trying to force him to play YOUR way now. And your solution to this is to ban yourself and him.
When the RIGHT solution is for everyone to pick what they want, roles be damned, and then work like a team to win using whatever they've got to work with.
Take the Draw did precisely that. Let everyone do what they wanted and then he tried to work with what he had in the best way possible. The others on his team didn't, falsely reported him, flamed him, and had him punished for their toxic attitudes and actions.
You.
Are.
Clueless.
Dextix LT7 votesYour logic falls apart under any scrutiny.
What if i decide to play ap garen? I pick what i want right? Roles be damned right? And i will be tryong to win with ap garen. IT is that simple, your logic actually allows trolls roam freely with absolutely no punishments, because pick what i want, roles be damned.
It is a TEAM GAME, and if the team wants to play the 1.1.2 strategy, they should play it.
It is not a false report in any way. Why do YOU decide what the other 4 people will need to do to accomodate your pick? Why are they forced to play with you if they dont want to?
I am not clueless in any way. IT is you and other newcomers that defend this bullshit that are the problem.
Where the fuck did communication go to, TEAMWORK? WHERE?
Why is the current mentality "WE ALL DO WHAT WE WANT SO STFU"???
jaymc11307 votes[{quoted}](name=Dextix LT,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9E2qEu5O,comment-id=000d00030000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2017-03-01T10:29:58.641+0000)
Your logic falls apart under any scrutiny.
What if i decide to play ap garen? I pick what i want right? Roles be damned right? And i will be tryong to win with ap garen. IT is that simple, your logic actually allows trolls roam freely with absolutely no punishments, because pick what i want, roles be damned.
It is a TEAM GAME, and if the team wants to play the 1.1.2 strategy, they should play it.
It is not a false report in any way. Why do YOU decide what the other 4 people will need to do to accomodate your pick? Why are they forced to play with you if they dont want to?
I am not clueless in any way. IT is you and other newcomers that defend this bullshit that are the problem.
Where the fuck did communication go to, TEAMWORK? WHERE?
Why is the current mentality "WE ALL DO WHAT WE WANT SO STFU"???
Sigh...
Dfg AP garen was a thing...
Jesus.
Just stop posting at all please. You have yet to present even a single valid sentence, let alone an entire point.
Dextix LT3 votesIT was never a thing, it was never efffective, but accordinfg to your logic i should be free to play ap garen because i want to and not be punished for it while ruining the games of others.
I remember in earlier seasons it was all about communitating.
You are advocating for everyone doing what they wany with no care in the world.
BIG DADDY BARD8 votesThe difference is that nunu is played to his maximum effectiveness botlane. (He also has a positive win rate.) Are you going to tell me that you can go play ap garen, to his MAXIMUM effectiveness? Go ahead, try it for a couple of games, but make sure to take and analyze data to prove that ap garen is good and beneficial to your team. Nunu guy had data to back him up, you have absolutely nothing.
Dextix LT5 votesHe was not even playing botlane, how could he have been effective there at all?
And remember, it does not matter if its beneficial or not according to the logic of the person i replied to.
SeaGodUrronuos8 votesDude look at how many combined down votes you have, and let me tell you again since you're dense, you're wrong
Ahristocats9 votesDid you win with a high win rate with AP garen?
just fucking stfu then, and i'm talking freshly because you deserve it by manipulating everyone with bad examples
Dextix LT9 votesWinrate does not matter according to the person i replied to.
All that matter is, and i quote:
When the RIGHT solution is for everyone to pick what they want, roles be damned
These are not bad examples, these are examples YOU are defending with such logic.
Ahristocats9 votes[{quoted}](name=Dextix LT,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9E2qEu5O,comment-id=000d0003000000000000000000010000000000010000,timestamp=2017-03-01T11:21:28.228+0000)
Winrate does not matter according to the person i replied to.
He never said that winrate doesn't matter LOOOOL, please go home friend you're drunk
[{quoted}](name=Dextix LT,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9E2qEu5O,comment-id=000d0003000000000000000000010000000000010000,timestamp=2017-03-01T11:21:28.228+0000) All that matter is, and i quote:
These are not bad examples, these are examples YOU are defending with such logic.
it's a bad example because YOU WILL NEVER SUCCESS WITH AP GAREN, if you successed with it, nothing would be wrong with playing AP garen get it? you're not like this challenger dude, who has a very effective strategy that doesn't make his team losing, and doesn't sabotage the game
Dextix LT6 votesSucesss is not a measure.
I will quote again.
When the RIGHT solution is for everyone to pick what they want, roles be damned
Ahristocats9 votesthey can pick what they want, as much as the strategy works, that's all AP garen doesn't work Support nunu with smite and roaming, with over i don't know how many lines of theory crafting and a good win rate, works what does that mean? the dude should not be banned period
Narasimha14 votesWho are YOU to decide what Take the Draw gets to sign up for? You're trying to force him to play YOUR way now. And your solution to this is to ban yourself and him.
I'll jump in real quick. In any situation where multiple people have to work together for a mutual goal, the groups's needs will outweigh the individuals. You can flip around your arguement and say "Take the Draw is trying to force 4 other people to play HIS way." Does that sound right?
When the RIGHT solution is for everyone to pick what they want, roles be damned, and then work like a team to win using whatever they've got to work with.
See, the thing is, that doesn't work at all. You can't expect people to just adapt on the fly. Humans are beings that resist change.
Take the Draw did precisely that. Let everyone do what they wanted and then he tried to work with what he had in the best way possible. The others on his team didn't, falsely reported him, flamed him, and had him punished for their toxic attitudes and actions.
Unfortunately, this is 100% false. Did you watch any of the VODs? He didn't 'try to work with what he had'. He literally told people 'This is what I'm doing'. And that was that. End of story. He expected his 4 other teammates to unequivocally follow what he was doing. He didn't ask. He didn't try to work with anyone. He wanted to do his own thing, his team be damned. And while it certainly worked some of the time, that doesn't mean it felt any better for his team. You're expected to work together for the sake of everyone. Your fun should never come at the cost of your teammates.
Shaco Psycho4 votesAh finally someone with valid points and facts to back them up! The rest of this reply thread was just a bunch of back and forth flame wars.
Prozzak5 votesYour inability to think beyond one aspect of something is quite perplexing. If the Nunu's ability to win is compromised by say 20% from not playing his Nunu his way then ok. However what if him forcing his team to play that way makes his adc 40% more likely to cause the team to lose? What if it also negatively affects other players because they see this and consciously or subconsciously play worse because they do not believe it will work? All of the sudden he is making his team much more likely to lose.
Just because it is better for one player on the team does not mean it is overall better for the team. That is the same reason why teamcomps matter so much (once you get to a rank closer to where you should be).
MudintheWater23 votesJust want to point out that this has harmed the reporting system's credibility. We are told that reports are only meaningful if they are valid. The summoner's code clearly states that you can't report a player for tactical disagreements. The reports on nunu are pretty clearly based on a tactical diagreement over what is best for the team.
They are based on salt, and should be ignored.
And then you go and ban the guy, meaning that y'all listened to the invalid reports. And then your team tries to defend that by saying off meta is allowed except when your team doesn't like it?
This is disappointing.
TeeTohr2 votesSo you're telling me that someone playing soraka full attack speed full split push top with a 15% winrate and 10 deaths a game shouldn't be reported, because she's trying and it's only her tactics ?
MudintheWater15 votesThere are plenty of people down in low bronze with awful winrates on their champion in their lane. It's okay to lose. Sorry. That's the truth.
We shouldn't just ban them because they run suboptimal builds and play badly and get flamed and reported all the time (which definitely happens in bronze).
TeeTohr2 votesWho said it was in bronze ?
I'll quote something you're supposed to know, the summoner's code :
Enjoy Yourself, but not at Anyone Else's Expense
I don't think that increased your average chance of losing by 70% is different than having a inting person in your game. And this time it's not just a one time feeding game, it's consistent and has proven to be a bad strategy.
MudintheWater3 votesThis is not enjoying yourself at someone else's expense. This is a complete disagreement over how to best approach to winning is. It is consistent and has proven to be a good strategy.
Besides, being forced out of a winning strategy is also applicable to that rule.
Nobody should be in a position to have to play their champion and role the way their team says to under threat of reporting.
SuperLuigiLXIV3 votesOh okay, you shouldn't get banned for playing your way, even if your way amounts to telling four other players that THEY have to accomodate YOU under threat of losing the game if they don't.
Because no matter how nicely this guy said it, or how effective it is, it boils down to that.
For the record, nobody would punish him for playing Nunu support. He's being punished because he was given the support role and chose to play double jungle instead. It's like if a mid laner double laned with top lane all the time. Does it make sense? NO. Is he actually playing his role? NO. But according to you, if that's how he chooses to play mid lane--by playing a different role entirely--we should be required to respect that.
Shit like that is why the role system was put in place to begin with.
MudintheWater5 votesNot quite. The other 4 players can continue to play their way just fine.
That is precisely why this is so offensive to many of us. He has found a perfectly valid way of playing the support role, but is being banned because salty teammates don't like it. Read his post again. He is supporting the team, he isn't the ADC's babysitter. There is nothing wrong with that. His mmr and winrate show this is viable, but his team reports him anyways, because they are salty.
Tough. Shit. They can be salty and their reports aren't valid.
SuperLuigiLXIV5 votesHe's NOT supporting. He's going double jungle.
You cannot just say "I am going to support by double jungling" and that magically make your role what you want. A mid laner cannot say "I am mid laning in top lane" and expect to be protected by Riot for that insanity.
And no matter how he words it, how nice he's been, how effective it is, THAT'S what he's doing. He is playing jungler instead of support.
He could abandon his ADC. Roam with his jungler instead, support his top or mid laner instead, fine. But he is in the SUPPORT ROLE. If he spends the game counterjungling, that is pressuring the enemy team. Yeah, that's helping to win, if it works.
But it is not supporting. By that definition, EVERY role doubles as a support role.
Their reports are entirely valid.
MudintheWater1 votesYes you can, provided you are supporting your team with a valid stratrgy, which Nunu is. Support does not mean "be the ADC's slave." I've won games by supporting midlane, hell, a lot of people have. I got reported for it, just like Nunu is getting reported. But those reportd aren't valid.
SuperLuigiLXIV2 votesNo, you can't.
Support does not mean being an ADC's slave. What it means is directly aiding other players on your team. Directly aiding them.
Double jungling provides INDIRECT support. Indirect support of the team is the job of EVERYONE, through pressuring lanes or the jungle.
By your definition, I am a support Sion when I play in top lane, because I have teleport, which means the enemy bot lane must be wary of me showing up if they commit to something.
Of course, I am NOT support Sion when I play top lane, because that's NOT support, not directly, and it would be stupid to pretend it is.
3TWarrior3 votesthere is nothing wrong with a double jungler if the player knows what they are doing, which clearly this diamond player does
if you look at an average player, however, it is faulty because they are prone to so many mistakes and common strategies.
Unfortunately, this seems to be riot's design philosophy: if every champion can support..then the game is finally balanced
SuperLuigiLXIV2 votesI can think of one thing wrong with it.
It's role stealing, something which has been punishable since this new system came out.
Actually, I can think of many things, but that's the simplest explanation, since nobody seems to want to hear the logical one.
Supreme Senpai693 votesThe game is mostly self moderated in that the community decides what's punishable. For example in korea gg ez is more reported than america. Standards change with community so some things aren't globally the same rule. If 90% of people find that saying racial slurs is reportable then that is what is now bannable. Likewise if America turns racist then saying the N word won't ever get you banned. It's a good system.
Unfortunately, it makes situations like this arise sometimes.
But basically what we should and shouldn't ban is decided by us on a whole, not me or you. If we shouldn't ban someone for being horrible at the game then we won't.
BabeisBae2 votesIts because their ban system is automatic, and no case is actually reviewed ^_^ He wouldn't have been banned with a 50% support nunu win rate, if someone actually took the two seconds to look :P
