Skip to content

Ultimate Normalization for Mages still needed!

Arctic Wolf··10 votes·1,874 views

Hello Riot,

Given that it's been stated there is a trend towards having a standard ultimate cost at 100 at all three ranks for mages that use mana (the ones who don't have continuously draining ults unlike Anivia, Maokai, or Swain), there are still a few champions who could use some love:

Amumu (ult costs 100/150/200) Karthus (ult costs 150/175/200) Orianna (ult costs 100/125/150) Sona (ult costs 100/150/200) Twisted Fate (ult costs 150/125/100) Veigar (ult costs 125/175/225) Zilean (ult costs 125/150/175)

Now, I realize many of you may see champions on this list and think I'm completely crazy, but consider this: the utility in most cases doesn't scale with the ult rank (i.e. TF will still TP at 5500 range, Karthus will still ult everyone, Amumu's root is always 2 seconds, Sona's stun always 1.5 etc...) and Riot has made several adjustments to ultimate costs since season 3 trying to standardize certain champion aspects. Viktor was adjusted to 100 at all ranks from 125/175/225 and Kayle and LeBlanc had their ult costs entirely removed. (Okay, I admit, the LeBlanc and Kayle was probably a little too good of a buff considering how powerful they became, but they were since adjusted) But with all the other champion buffs being currently prepared, I see no reason why some of Riot's older champions released prior to season 3 couldn't use a touchup just to retune things such as their ultimate costs.

13 Comments

Syvenon7 votes

Especially on champions who don't really build mana for a while (Amumu, Sona) those mana costs are devastating.

Arsenal Gear2 votes

The ult is really powerful though.

Syvenon3 votes

I definitely agree, but it's a little unfair that these champions with big initiating ultimates have to start the teamfight with half of their mana gone. On the support side, the problem is that when you most need your ult (after a lot of poke, or after using abilities to keep someone alive), you will likely not have enough mana for it.

Ironclad Dragon2 votes

I want them to fix mobility creep first.

Arctic Wolf2 votes

Mobility creep would be a more important fix, for sure, but this would be far easier and quicker while they work on that.

Joe Drops3 votes

Not sure that's possible. Too many champions with mobility skills added into the game. Only CC creep or removing those skills could do the trick and I don't think that's desirable.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

If Leona's Solar Flare can cost 100 mana, then Sona's Crescendo and Amumu's Curse of the Sad Mummy should as well.

IAmNeverViable1 votes

I agree with some of your opinion

Amumu (ult costs 100/150/200)- Yes he should be 100 mana cost from all rank. He's doesn't have very high damage unless he's ap amumu. His jungle sustain are pretty bad. Overall help tank jungle please. Sona (ult costs 100/150/200)- Yes, her mana cost is too much compare other support with very similar kit ult like nami and braum. She's waste too much mana to apply her basic abilities Twisted Fate (ult costs 150/125/100)- This one i have to disagree here. TF is strong in the early to mid game. He's already has mana sustain and zoning potential and giving him extra mana to land his combo can be scary for everyone. Veigar (ult costs 125/175/225)- Hesitant about this one. Veigar is one of the most hungry mana cost champion in the game. He's used those mana to gain ap stack and lower his mana cost can really buff him to farm all day without leaving lane. Zilean (ult costs 125/150/175)- Hesitant about this one. Afraid he well be viable in mid and consistently spam bomb and can receive again due to the spam of w to keep doing this combo.

Arctic Wolf1 votes

I really like your reasoning behind Sona and Amumu; tbh I included them because I didn't want to leave champions out if possible (though I still may have missed some) I'm definitely going to remember that if I ever get the chance to bring it up to a rioter or see other posts about it.

That being said, I definitely agree with the hesitation about Zilean, especially with Faker breaking him out recently. I think either the base numbers or the AP scaling of 200% for health restored would probably need to be looked at. Yet, while this would help him out in mid, I still think he would be a more niche pick because of his inability to be a consistent damage source.

As for Veigar, I would argue that with other champions having similarly high burst patterns (LeBlanc had no cost and insane burst, and Syndra has the highest single target burst in the game with 6-7 dark spheres out) he should still be fine with 100 mana at all ranks. To me, his ap farming on his Q isn't as much of an issue--because it's a single target spell, you either have to farm with it or harass, you can't do both. Choosing to farm allows your opponent freedom to farm as well and/or to harass you without fear of return harass. Using your Q to deal damage in trades so that you're not bullied out of lane means you cannot farm AP.

Lastly, I actually disagree with you about TF for the same reasons you've stated. While the change to 100 mana at all ranks would be a slight early game buff, given his mana sustain this is not something which would matter a whole lot at the competitive level where players are skilled enough to not go OOM. Even in your average game, by level 11 where there would only be a 25 mana difference it wouldn't be that big of a deal. While it would certainly give some help to beginner TF players, a solid TF would already be able to manage the costs of his spells that the additional 50 mana wouldn't be that big of a difference. If TF's ult scaled up from 100 to 150, I might be more inclined to agree with you, but given that he already scales to the standard cost and that the difference isn't huge to begin with it doesn't seem like a big issue to me (whereas Amumu and Sona would each end up with an additional 100 mana, at least 1 spell, maybe even more)

Tbh, Karthus was the one which I thought might be the biggest issue, given his ult deals massive damage across the entire enemy team. But it'd been a while since I've played Karthus and I remembered that when the late game team fights happen a good Karthus will usually wait until he's dead and ult when spells don't cost anything, or else he'll not really need to having won the team fight.

Angry Monster1 votes

Take kartus off that list. He gets all his mana back when he dies on passive. Him being low is a safety feature for the other lanes.

Arctic Wolf1 votes

Tbh, Karthus was the one which I thought might be the biggest issue, given his ult deals massive damage across the entire enemy team. But it'd been a while since I've played Karthus and I remembered that when the late game team fights happen a good Karthus will usually wait until he's dead and ult when spells don't cost anything, or else he'll not really need to having won the team fight. Karthus players already build so much mana (usually having a RoA, tear, or both) that with the mana returned from his E toggle the ult cost usually isn't an issue anyways. Combined with his passive giving him free casts for 7 seconds when dead, there is rarely a time that Karthus will be unable to ult when he is alive or in his passive form. Given this, and that Riot claims to be trying to standardize their ult costs on mages to 100 at all ranks, it isn't a huge deal for Karthus to also be standardized. Riot could completely ignore Karthus as they have, and it wouldn't be a problem. If they decided to change him to 100 at all ranks, it would be merely a buff on paper as 98% of the time a Karthus player would already have had the mana needed to ult when he does, or have his passive up. Standardizing his ult is more a way to have his ult look in line with the rest... though interestingly it could open up more possibility for jungle Karthus, which would be really neat.

Marthian1 votes

I think the mana costs are fine, especially since all of the listed ults are huge game changers compared to some of the other ultimates.

Amumu positioned right can lock down the enemy team for ~2 seconds. Karthus can finish off targets from a distance Orianna has a big AoE Displace and does a lot of damage. Sona has a big AoE stun. Twisted Fate's ult is a global teleport. Easily changes a team fight (or can sometimes score a free kill on a lone adc.) Veigar can potentially delete an APC (eventually: ADC) from a team fight. By itself (easy to do so too since he has an AoE stun.) Zilean can bring back a team mate for a second wind (now you have to kill someone again.)

EDIT: good point on the utility. Although at higher levels, you do have more mana to spare... Double EDIT: Something else to note: Most (if not all) of the listed ults gain utility in being able to be used more often with the reduced CD.

Arctic Wolf1 votes

Zilean is the only one I sort of agree with, in that being able to have a free GA if the mana costs were to be standardized it might also require adjusting numbers on his ult. That being said, i feel the rest can be set to have the standard 100 at all ranks without it drastically changing the balance of the game, because in most cases there are already other champions who can do what each of these can already.

Amumu - Locks down enemy team for 2 seconds. This is comparable to 2 other champions, though each do things slightly different. Galio has a 2 second lockdown with a range 50 higher than Amumu. While Galio doesn't stop champions from attacking, they are forced to focus him at reduced damage, while his ult gets stronger for each hit he takes. Nunu also has a large zoning ult, though instead of a complete lockdown champions have significantly reduced movement and attack speed. In exchange for this not being a perfect lockdown, Nunu has excellent base damage and AP scaling, provided he can get his full channel.

Orianna - While there really aren't comparable abilities (the closest I could think of was Diana's E, which does no damage) I would argue that her ult alone doesn't do nearly as much when not combined with her other abilities. Alone it has 70% ap scaling, and ok base damages, it only becomes truly terrifying when you can R-W-Q-E an entire team... For this, I kinda see your point as the 50 mana difference at rank 3 basically allows for an extra shot at repositioning the ball. However, I still am of the opinion that this slight buff isn't going to be completely game breaking.

Karthus - while no champions have comparable ults, as I've explained in other posts this is actually the most irrelevant champion on the list. Karthus generally tends to build fairly deep into mana, often having RoA, Tear/Archangels/Seraph's, or both. Furthermore, with his passive giving him free spell casts after death, come late game teamfights a good Karthus player will wait until they die to ult, thus making mana costs irrelevant. If they don't die, chances are they won't need to ult. This could potentially be a buff to jungle Karthus, but still insignificant due to his passive.

Sona - large AoE stun. I would compare Sona in this case to Annie. While Annie's tibbers doesn't always stun, generally when used from the support role the player will have the passive stun up. Annie doesn't have as great a range on the stun as Sona, however it is instantaneous, and scales to a slightly higher duration than Sona's lasts. Furthermore, Annie can deal far more damage with her ult than Sona can, and is left with an extra 100 mana, which results in additional spell casts that have very good ratios and base damage.

Twisted Fate - similar to Nocturne and Pantheon, TF is still more in a class of his own. I would argue that standardizing TF's ult would only be a slight early game buff, as his rank 3 ult is 100 mana anyways. By the time TF can port into a lane and 1v1 an opponent trying to split push, his ult already costs 100 mana. TF has great mana sustain, and an extra 50 mana at rank 1 and 25 mana at rank 2 would be irrelevant in competitive play. It would help players in low levels like Bronze, but this slight advantage would still be gone come late game.

Veigar - deletes mages, still not as good as Syndra. Ult aside, all Syndra's abilities are AoE. Her Q is on par with Veigar's until rank 5 where her passive makes it more powerful. Her W-E combo doesn't stun as long as Veigar's, but deals more damage (as veigar's stun has no damage) and a skilled Syndra will usually have around 6 balls when ulting. Not needing to scale off of enemy AP, Syndra consistently deals ridiculous base damage, 1080 at rank 3 for 6 balls. At rank 1, 6 spheres has more base damage than Veigar's rank 3 ult, with the same 120% AP scaling. Most importantly, she out ranges all of Veigar's abilities.

Lastly, remember Urf mode? All ults benefit from being able to be used more with reduced CD. I'm not talking about reducing CD, but making ults more standard in costs.

More from Live Gameplay Balance

More by Arctic Wolf