Why are the champion texture balances REMOVING DETAIL? D:

Arctic Wolf··16 votes·11,151 views

I like how Riot is updating a lot of their champion base and skin textures for the SR update, but unfortunately it also seems like there's a lot of detail being removed from these skins as well. You can check out the first batch here at http://www.surrenderat20.net/2014/09/912-pbe-update-first-batch-of-texture.html#more .

Don't get me wrong, some are being done pretty well. I like how champions such as Ahri, Ashe, and LeBlanc are coming along, their updates improve the textures without taking away from their aesthetic appeal. However, you can see a lot of the minutiae being purged from the skins on champions like Akali, Nautilus, Corki's skins, Xerath, etc... Let's take Nautilus and Orianna for example: their colors have been adjusted to be slightly more subdued to tie into the newer colors on the SR update, however in doing so they lose the details which accentuate different parts of their base skins. Nautilus' armor looks nearly all the same color and his anchor doesn't appear to have spent any time in the depths of the sea. Orianna is a tad different, her incredibly bright yellow has been subdued with a much more classy gold color. However, details in her metalwork on "The Ball" as well as her character figure have yet to be buffed accordingly to fit with her new scheme. They didn't necessarily need to stand out as much before as the bright yellow made them 'pop', but the gold is less forgiving. On that same note, Xerath also suffers from a contrast nerf, where the runic designs on his sarcophagus are far less visible than they were before the texture update.

Lastly, for any Rioters reading this, I want to turn your attention to this post made a few days ago by a summoner who goes by Mars: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4849631

He pointed out great inconsistencies between the Cassiopeia in-game model and the splash art, and even went so far as to create models which would more accurately reflect what it should look like in game (if one was to make the model as a representation of the splash art, not the other way around). Specifically, among his chief concerns were that the scales differ greatly in color and consistency from both the old model and the new splash art. His concerns about the inconsistencies appeared to be legitimate after the new model was released and appeared significantly different from both the old model and new splash art. (Since he didn't include it, the old model vs new comparison can be found here: http://www.surrenderat20.net/2014/09/patch-416-cassiopeia-and-renekton-model.html#more) His concerns addressed something I noticed which was different and made me not particularly enjoy the texture update, but unfortunately I'm not the best at 'one of these things is not like the other' and wasn't unable to figure it out until seeing Mars' post.

So Rioters, I ask you this:

  1. Why the drastic change to Cassiopeia's in-game model?
  2. Was it intended to be this different from the splash art?
  3. As Mars asked, is there any chance for a "Traditional Cassiopeia" skin, given that her scales are so drastically different and this consists of about half her model?

Thanks to any and all who have read this, sorry for the long post

43 Comments

RiotRiot Baconhawk20 votes

Sometimes, less is more.

Cool little details up close muddy how something looks far away. Smooth some of those details and suddenly, your zoomed-out game experience is much cleaner and attractive.

Gixia2 votes

Some of those new colours just seem... wrong. Like, LeBlanc looks WAY too tanned, both in comparison to her previous appearance, and also her splash art. The gold parts of Orianna looked caked in a thick layer of dust. And Silverfang Akali's once-silver weapons now look coated in rust. Any chance some of these could be fixed?

Especially LeBlanc. Like, as someone who owns every one of her skins, I would never want to play her again if she always looks like that now.

Blue33452 votes

As I've stated before, the new Akali texture update makes her look... like a giant block... and the funny thing is, you didn't even change her model. I especially hate the Akali change but that's not all... I agree with the OP, Nautilus looks more boring, Orianna pops out a lot more then she should, I like the new effects on Leona but she lost some of her color and it kind of dulls up someone who's supposed to represent sunlight. By the way... it's worth noting Akali's texture update removed the snake tattoo on her back, but to be fair I never liked that anyway. Still though, the glow she had made her feel more alive... the new texture makes her look extremely flat.

Edit: As stated below, SILVERfang Akali now has gold weapons. Logic = ???

I'm all for texture updates, but these look extremely rushed, and nobody likes rushed work because it looks exactly like what it is... rushed.

RiotRiot Baconhawk7 votes

Just because something is out doesn't mean it's necessarily going to be permanent. Silverfang Akali's blades are being changed, I think (I'm not on that team but I work with a lot of artists who cross-communicate).

Lady Luck1 votes

What about her hair?

Akali's hair bothers me now... Arcade Sona's update changed her hair in a way that felt like somebody just dabbed color without thought to hair texture or dimension. I didn't like it but, there are plenty of Sona skins I like so I didn't think much on it. (Though... I've not played Arcade Sona since despite it being the reason I started playing Sona in the first place.)

However, I'm a bit concerned about Akali's hair feeling very much the same.

The hair feels like one color on the model and loses all dimension when zoomed out. I am worried that the lack of dimension in the hair is going to continue with further long haired champions.

Flemman1 votes

About akali, another strange change for me is blood moon. It was the perfect chance to make her mask in game like the one on the splash, so why do they keep that yellow dot on it when it's not even on the spalsh to begin with

5G8Nri0B543 votes

I agree with your logic to an extent.

But this really doesn't apply to Renekton, and REALLY doesn't apply to Nautilus. Nautilus himself is already far too huge that he should be exempt from that effect, whereas Renekton...not that he was super duper great in his old skin, but he really lost a lot of his "savagery" with the new plastic-y look.

I can see this making sense in a lot of other smaller champions, but not so much Renekton and Nautilus. For Nautilus, for as squishy and weak he really is (by tank standards) in-game, he is meant to convey a sense of impenetrability and heaviness. The new texture kinda removed that sense.

RiotRiot Baconhawk11 votes

I know that a) these changes are not necessarily permanent (we will change things if needed!), and I think that b) Nautilus is getting tweaked a bit to look more grungy, just-came-from-the-bottom-of-the-oceany.

5G8Nri0B541 votes

ooo neato.

Any decisions to also change his gameplay so that his attack damage actually reflects swinging around a gigantic anchor like in that kickass cinematic?

Shinjusuke2 votes

So glad to hear this, I made a thread about it myself but it kinda got buried. I think the biggest champs that lose too much by this are Nautilus, Orianna, Xerath, and Viktor (most of the metal in them doesn't look like metal without the detail, and Xer's lightning looks more watery than lightningy now).

Please, PLEASE considering returning some of the dark spots and the detail to these champs, they look too different with what's on the PBE right now :/

Basilisk19912 votes

That's really good to hear, he looks way to clean as is currently IMO.

Decrit1 votes

He lost what? Before was a candycrocodile, now feels more fearsome!

Arctic Wolf1 votes

Hi Baconhawk!

I understand that the overall goal of the texture updates is for a more clean experience in game, and I believe it will make more sense to me seeing them in context with the SR update. Even outside of it, there are a lot of texture updates that (imo) are done really well; I personally like the changes to LeBlanc and Ahri, I think Galio looks even better than before, and Battlecast Xerath actually looks like he belongs in the Battlecast lineup now (Awesome!). Overall I like how a lot of the brightness has been adjusted across the board so that it fits more with how the SR update is coming along. I realize most of what I take issue with isn't something that can be seen during the calamity of battle, however I do feel there are some legitimate concerns I raise. I suppose if I were to boil it down to its essence, my 2 main issues would be this:

  1. Nautilus - almost looks a bit too uniform, and from seeing just the model kinda looks more like a character in the "Jimmy Neutron" cartoon style, vs a champion in League. Adding back some depth (puns of damage?) to his color scheme might help fix this almost claymation style he now seems to be

  2. Cassiopeia - I'm glad I found Mars' post as I couldn't quite articulate what was just so off about her, but her visual/texture update which recently came with her rework changed a lot of things about her character. Her scales, in particular, are no longer the green & black they once were. They are instead a mix of two different blue/green colors, yet the new splash art released had her scales the previous colors. I don't think the changes to the head dress or the eyes being white instead of yellow matter all that much, but I used to be a big Cassiopeia player back in season 2, and now that she is becoming more viable again I'd love to see her color scheme remain as it had been.

Thank-you for taking the time to respond to my post, I apologize for not thinking more clearly and coherently before as a lot of it was more griping than actually addressing the issues which concerned me.

-Arctic Wolf

Hellioning1 votes

Any comments on the Cass side of the equation? I understand your points about small details, though I disagree with them heavily, but I don't see why Cass should look so different from her splash. Isn't the entire point of splash art to advertise to someone 'this is what this champion looks like', and it's weird when there are such obvious differences between that and their model in game.

I guess relaunches aren't your department, but could you get whoever is in charge of Cass' new model here to talk about it?

Arctic Wolf1 votes

Having just seen the updates to Nautilus' base, I must say he looks so much better! While I personally would prefer to see the metal at the outer edge of his anchor have a brighter and more freshly exposed metallic look like the current base, it is still orders of magnitude in the hundreds, if not thousands, better than the first 'claymation' texture update which was done. (Think about it though, this part of the anchor is constantly being thrown at targets and slamming into walls, so it's not gonna have the same wear the rest of the anchor does). I must also add, Akali is looking pretty sweet as well with the additional changes. Happy her silver fangs are silver again. Warwick doesn't stand a chance :P

Tasgal15 votes

Simplicity is often better overall. When you're looking at a still image with an insane resolution small detail can be nice, sure, but otherwise it's best not to include it. In game are you really going to notice the removal of filigree on something? Probably not, you're a little busy focusing on the rest of the game.

Removal of bloating detail is common in many disciplines outside of art as well. In mathematics for instance, nearly every problem in school begins or ends with the word 'Simplify'. Nobody wants to see some massive ugly expression at the end when you could've trimmed it down to one number. When writing it's common to remove unnecessary words. How much do you really need to say 'very', 'quite', or 'somewhat'? In physics, do we need to know what every object is doing in an area if they don't affect what we're modeling? No, so we don't include it.

At the end of the day I agree with their decision. I do love small detail. Things that people may not notice but I've seen or heard make me happy. Yes I was annoyed they removed it, at first. However, if there's never any time to notice it besides the first two minutes of a match, what's the point? Besides, they can include small details in other ways, like Viktor's staff changing color, or Kha'Zix growing new body parts.

SAIZOxRYOMA7 votes

just going to copy and paste a FAQ from the website you linked.

BUT I LIKED SMALL DETAIL X!!!! WHY REMOVE IT!?!

  • This comes up a lot in every sort of texture change but sometimes the small details get the axe in favor of the bigger picture. RiotBaconHawk addressed this in a thread about the removal of Corki's runes on his ROFLcopter blades:

As always, I want to strongly emphasize that a screen cap does not do justice to an actual in-game experience. Speaking to the removal of the runes, for game clarity purposes, detail like that is lost at game height and muddies the champion look, making it overly busy to the eye.

However, would love for Ququ to come weigh in on this as it's his team working on these. I'm on Skins team, and we focus on ensuring we don't add these kinds of unnecessary details—which are cool when zoomed in, and on cosplay, but sadly, not conducive to a clear in-game experience!—but that doesn't mean we don't add details anywhere else :D We are just selective and make sure that details we do add are meaningful and add to the character! IronStylus also commented:

Gotta remember that detail frequency often works against us. Excessive detail, especially detail that is highly contrasted against it's adjacent material leads to "flickering" and "buzzing." That a) hurts they eye, b) generally feels low quality, c) doesn't fit in with our changing style. While it can be sometimes confused with feature removal, it results in a cleaner asset, it's for the overall health and quality of the game.

Arctic Wolf1 votes

Hello AIexei Stukov,

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post, I apologize I noticed Baconhawk first because of the redpost, but I really appreciate someone from the skins team taking the time to elaborate on this. I also want to apologize, I probably should have waited about a day before posting to stop it from being my immediate first reaction. I'll repost my two main concerns I still have from my reply to Baconhawk.

"1) Nautilus - almost looks a bit too uniform, and from seeing just the model kinda looks more like a character in the "Jimmy Neutron" cartoon style, vs a champion in League. Adding back some depth (puns of damage?) to his color scheme might help fix this almost claymation style he now seems to be

  1. Cassiopeia - I'm glad I found Mars' post as I couldn't quite articulate what was just so off about her, but her visual/texture update which recently came with her rework changed a lot of things about her character. Her scales, in particular, are no longer the green & black they once were. They are instead a mix of two different blue/green colors, yet the new splash art released had her scales the previous colors. I don't think the changes to the head dress or the eyes being white instead of yellow matter all that much, but I used to be a big Cassiopeia player back in season 2, and now that she is becoming more viable again I'd love to see her color scheme remain as it had been."

I also would love to hear from Ququ if he has the time to add input. Upon having more time to look at the models I would agree that most of what is cleaned up won't be noticed in the thick of battle, and some even look much better. (Galio seems like a big improvement and Battlecast Xerath now seems to actually fit into that line of skins)

Again, thanks for taking the time to respond to my post, I apologize that it was innitially more of a rant than a coherent and well thought set of points which addressed the real issue.

-Arctic Wolf

Also, on a side note having little do to with texture updates, shoutout to you and the skins team for the fantastic job you've all been doing this past year. I've been really liking the quality of the newer skins, "Final Boss Veigar" is perhaps one of my favorite Riot has ever done... perhaps tying with Bad Santa Veigar.

RiotRiot Baconhawk7 votes

We are working on things. :) I heard Nautilus is getting changes due to feedback.

And thanks, FB Veigar is... well, boss. ;)

Flemman1 votes

But he don't know how to write the letter "Q" :p

ModCaptainMårvelous5 votes

IMO: Because hyper detailed textures (While they look great in a model viewer) come off as smudged and ugly in-game. Like it may look less detailed, but the main thing to compare is how they look in motion vs. how they look standing still. To me, Akali lost the most detail but it was for the sake of not looking like a giant splotch of greens and golds on her outfit.

MrBuffington3 votes

I agree with Nautilus, I like his live textures, makes him look more like he's been at the bottom of the ocean for a long time; the PBE one looks a bit too smoothed over. I'm okay with most of the other ones; I think we'll have to see how they look on the new SR to see if they fit in better, or if the old textures would have been fine in the new SR.

Arctic Wolf4 votes

I know I'll eventually get used to all of them, it's nothing game breaking. I just wish there were a way to not neglect some of the finer details with the update. Cassiopeia is probably the biggest change I'll have to get used to, if her rework starts seeing her played more frequently

GuiltyGecko3 votes

I have to agree. When champions get updates it seems like they get less detail and their color pallets become far more muted. Pentakill Morde is a good example of this.

RiotRiot Baconhawk8 votes

There are gameplay and artistic purposes in removing unnecessary detail and smoothing out colors, values, etc.

Linna Excel3 votes

The new Leona is too dark. She needs to be a brighter golden color.

Hellioning8 votes

And there are aesthetic and story purposes to keeping those details. They help sell that this is actually a person, not just a model, and says 'hey, if you look closely, you get to see something cool!'.

I don't see many people going 'man, I can't keep track of Corki in a teamfight because his colors are too bright and he has too many details that blur his silhouette.' Like, I trust that you know what you're doing most of the time, but Riot's been in a habit of fixing things that aren't broken lately (Cass rework, lore), and I'm really worried about this.

I'm fine with textures updates in order to match the new map, but I find small details on champion to be really interesting from a story and character standpoint. I'm not not convinced that this is really a problem.

Tarreb1 votes

There are gameplay and artistic purposes in removing unnecessary detail and smoothing out colors, values, etc.

It seems that many of the champions getting this update seem to have lost some of their color and vibrance. Champions like Orianna, Leona, and Fiora seem to have had the colors muted or dulled, which I opine to be both strange and detrimental. The old textures made the champions pop out more, and the new ones feel like they belong in Zack Snyder's recent take on Superman.

It seems that desaturation or actual darkening of an image is done to make movies/games look 'grittier' or 'more realistic,' but I don't really think that kind of ideology is needed in LOL, in fact I think it becomes a hindrance. The champions in LOL are the most important aspect of the game, and by subduing their appearance they don't stand out as much.

RiotRiot Baconhawk2 votes

Remember. These are on PBE. They are not necessarily final.

Excalibur41 votes

Remember. These are on PBE. They are not necessarily final.

Actually Cassiopeia is past PBE.

EDIT: I'm assuming since half of the OP is about Cassiopeia we are talking about her as well.

Borand1 votes

Most things on the PBE are almost ready to get shipped.

Bowlbo3 votes

Also consider the new angle that the camera of the game will take once the live servers switch to the new Summoner's Rift. Taking a look at the current ARAM zoom level for comparison (New SR will be at this angle), the default view is far enough not to necessitate that level of detail. I appreciate the colour changes being slightly muted for the new SR, but consider that this change in detail also reflects the new SR.

Riot has made it stated that clarity is one of the main goals of the game's evolution. With the camera angle out these lower detail texture models are going to be a good thing. Sure they aren't as summoner 4 y but they are gonna clean up visual clutter and fulfill Riot's desire for increased clarity.

darkdill3 votes

Gotta say I don't enjoy Leona's new gold as much as her shiny yellow. She's a Solari, isn't she? Why doesn't she shine?

Calabok1 votes

Readying for the new maps

Tapu Fini1 votes

Prestigious Leblanc went from a bright, vibrant red, to a burnt orange. That's not even remotely okay. Some detail cleanup I can understand, but that's a big change. Maybe it needed to be toned down a little bit, but this is overkill.

Runeborn Xerath's "energy" is too solid in appearance.

Return the stitches along the top of Sewn Chaos Orianna's ball. Seriously. There was nothing wrong with it, and now it looks too plain.

Why are Silverfang Akali's Kama bronze/copper, instead of silver? Their tint in the splash seems to be from the red background lasers. Same with Bloodmoon Akali, it's the setting giving them tint.

AbodyHUN6661 votes

Regarding the Akali skin they said she is a noob champ and only deserves bronze. Just kidding they are going to fix it. :P

ShadowGlaive2131 votes

If you look at the Sona TU as well they removed a lot of the details from her instrument for Classic, Muse, and Silent Night so it no longer matches her splash, which is really disappointing to me. Her instrument looks more plastic now imo.

Excalibur41 votes

I got a warning that my post was removed for spam or something today for posting a link to my Cassiopeia fix last night (I am not in trouble don't worry :P), I had no idea that it was already linked and being discussed here. Thanks guys for the support, hopefully we can see some great changes next patch :D.

As for BaconHawk, thanks for communicating it's nice to actually have somebody actively spending some time trying to clear up matters. Despite whatever I post, I think the art and sound teams are the most reliable for fixing thinks, so hopefully my faith in you guys isn't misplaced :).

Lets soar1 votes

I sort of get why you're doing this, but I feel like league is gonna end up like a big blur with no model details; just the way it looks in dota which is partly the reason I never started playing it in the first place lol

Coffee Witch1 votes

Riot, you made akali look like shes coming from a 90's tomb raider game. I can understand your reasoning for these changes, but you're going entirely off the deep-end with them.

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