Quick Question about the jungle ^^

JackYAqua·Apr 25, 2014·2 votes·923 views

Hello Teemo-haterz,

I'm trying to make a new jungle item for tanks and so I was wondering :
What champions do you feel are not represented by the current jungle items/ have problems in the jungle.

I know the Spirit of the Ancient Golem is supposed to be for the tanks, but I heard some discussion about tanks having problems in the jungle so I thought I'd think about it, if the problem is really present.

Edit : THANKS for the feedback ^^ I was worried you wouldn't get my weird wording, but you did and I got all the info I needed.

18 Comments

CaptainWednesdayApr 25, 20142 votes

Are you talking about just tanks that struggle in the jungle?

JackYAquaApr 25, 20142 votes

Yes ^^

CaptainWednesdayApr 25, 20142 votes

Alright. Past your first clear in the jungle, there is no real sustain issues. After buying a Spirit Stone, most champions that can jungle can sustain very easily. The only champions that I have issues with in the first clear (that are also common junglers, not random champions) are DrMundo - - and maybe Poppy . Past those three, as long as your first clear goes well, you'll be fine. The Spirit of the Golem and all Stone items for that matter provide plenty of sustain for every tank champion. Nautilus could probably use some help clearing and Poppy needs an entire kit rework, but any other tank jungler can easily sustain themselves with a Spirit Stone, Wriggle's Lantern/Feral Flare, or some Life Steal.

the Anarchit3chtApr 25, 20142 votes

Mundo doesn't really have any problems clearing. Sure his health drops a little lower than might be comfortable, but given how quickly you can clear, it doesn't much matter.I find the main reason people have issues with Mundo is because they start blue and not red. The extra damage from the red buff will provide a decent buffer to your health.

CaptainWednesdayApr 29, 20141 votes

True. Still, his weak early game and dangerous first clear can leave him susceptible to an invade or ambush in his own jungle. Jungle Mundo is risky pick in general as he is not your average disruptive tank. He has his crippling slow, but nothing in the way of hard CC. With the introduction of Feral Flare, it seems tank junglers are beginning to fade out of the meta anyway. ADC itemization is the first thing on Riot's to do list, so I doubt we'll see much help for them in the near future. Maybe it'll be a few cycles down, but Riot needs to help sort out the Bruiser (fighter) vs. Full Tank issue soon.

the Anarchit3chtApr 29, 20141 votes

That's up to your team to cover that. Namely, they shouldn't be needing any ganks from you that early, so you should be safe within your own jungle. Secondly, if the enemy jungler is going into YOUR jungle, that puts him at a bigger vulnerability than it does Mundo. You could be on low health, but all it takes is one person from your team and you get a nice kill + assist for the team. And while he might not have any hard CC, he's an unstoppable monster. You come out of the bushes BEHIND their turret and melt their faces off with your cleaver. They can't run from you because of Mundo's natural resistance to disables and the fact that most of the time flashing will still leave you in optimal position to get a cleaver to the back of the neck. Yeah, the lack of hard CC might be difficult, but if you run with Ghost instead of Flash, you're stuck on the enemy like glue, bull dozing right through all of their turrets.

CaptainWednesdayApr 30, 20141 votes

Unless they throw Ignite or Grievous Wounds on you. Then Mundo gets sad. To be quite honest, it isn't tank junglers that need assistance, its AP Mage junglers.
Also, you raised fair points. And I agree for most of them.

the Anarchit3chtApr 30, 20141 votes

That's like the one counter Mundo really. And apart from a handful of champs that have Grievous Wounds or decide to build the crappy items that apply it, it forces them to use their ignite not to secure a kill, but to prevent a heal. That puts a highly offensive move on a 160 sec cd whereas Mundo's ult has a 70 sec cd. Ignite lasts for 5 seconds, which gives you a brief window to try and stop Mundo whereas his ult lasts for 12 seconds. The effects of most grievous wounds items apply only when you are below 40% health, and should a mundo be expecting a to take a a lot of damage and have such an effect applied, he will bust his ult a little early.

SinisterMCApr 25, 20142 votes

The problem some tank champions trying to jungle typically face is their lack of sustain and efficiency in the jungle. item 3207 is a great jungle item for an Udyr trying to build tanky and become a monster at chasing and stuning/bursting down targets. The key thing though is that doesn't make Udyr a good jungler or tank; it is his set of abilities that makes him a monster at clearing jungle camps and sustaining his HP. Any champion "can jungle", the real question is what champions are viable in the jungle. Leona could jungle, but she lacks sustain and clear speed so she would fall behind and be ineffective. It is all about a comparison of performances, so it is hard to make an item that would boost a Leona 's viability in the jungle without overpowering a jungler like Udyr . An item that boosted stats imperative to jungling, scaling based off of health and armor/mr, might improve the viability of champions such as Leona Garen Thresh Singed Shen . Again though, it's all about their kit. Some champions are designed with the jungle in mind, others will stuggle to jungle because jungle viability wasn't a main focus during their design. Some tanky champions that do well in the jungle include Chogath Amumu Rammus Hecarim Nasus Volibear Shyvana

JackYAquaApr 25, 20142 votes

So it comes down to the actual process of jungling and not the ganking?
And it just so happens to be that some "tanks" have problems with this process, while others don't?

the Anarchit3chtApr 25, 20141 votes

Leona lacking clear speed? Do you press your w while jungling? Do you position yourself so that your Zenith blade goes through ALL the monsters and not just one or two? She might be off to a slower start than others, but the sheer power of her ganking makes up for it entirely. Perhaps you should try focusing less on the tanky aspect of being a jungler with Leona and more on the utility aspect. One of my favorite Junglers, tbh. Once you hit 6, a gank from you basically guarantees a kill. Especially if you still choose to go the tanky route and have the diving capability.

Thorne LionsbaneMay 2, 20141 votes

Jungle Garen works, just the not having a slow makes it not viable, build a frozen mallet but thats an extra 33000.

Thorne LionsbaneMay 2, 20141 votes

also don't forget trundle, before flare came out I built golem on him, then iceborn. only problem with trundle is that he depends a lot on his items late game. but once you get about 4-5 items you can almost 1v1 anyone with his ult.

AsatorrrApr 26, 20142 votes

For me, item 1080 certainly gives your survivability, but some tanky junglers ( Sejuani Maokai etc) have mana issues that most of the fighter champions don't. And while the tanks give more CC, their ganking is really not more power than the bruisers, as bruisers have sufficient CC to still gank effectively with better itemization paths.

It used to be that tank junglers had cheap options for items (runic bulwark, old locket) that let them get hardy quickly. Now most tank items are expensive (2750g+) and with their slow clear speed and struggles ganking (why pick a champ with much less damage for slighly more CC?) tank junglers have begun to get outclassed.

I'm not saying Maokai ,etc aren't viable, just that they aren't as up to par. Because we can't just buff these champions, we need to find items that make them work well.

PyrrasuApr 26, 20142 votes

I think the tanks' main problems are in their slow clear times and weak early levels in the jungle. When assassins are so common, they can just come into your jungle and murder you. Spirit Stone is more beneficial on champions with quick camp clears (you deal the same damage to a camp regardless, but the quicker it dies the less damage you take). You don't need to be as tanky to clear as you used to be.

Spirit of the Ancient Golem could probably use some buffs, but tanks need some sort of advantage earlier on as well.

KrawMagrawApr 26, 20142 votes

Biggest issues for tank Junglers

1.Slow Clear speeds
2.Weak Early game
1. lack of sustain.
Basically it boils down to those three which turns into the actual problem of simply being outclassed, though one problem which is fixable is extremely high mana costs from older untouched champs like sej, moakai, j4, a lot of the utility ones

What a Tank jung. really needs to be effective is an insanely op item that would give them tankiness, early game power/survivability, and clear speed. It's nearly impossible to make something like that that's balanced.

Thorne LionsbaneMay 2, 20141 votes

I like Jungle J4 but dear god that clear speed, almost puts me to sleep.