I wonder when Riot will understand, SUPPORT ISN'T A BACK UP MID
I don't think I can be more clear about this.

ARE NOT SUPPORT ITEMS

ARE SUPPORT ITEMS
I don't think I can be more clear about this.

ARE NOT SUPPORT ITEMS

ARE SUPPORT ITEMS
I am curious why you feel this way. "All your spells now slow" seems a very supportive item to me, as does "Mark a target; magic damage dealers on your team deal more damage to them."
Do you think the ITEM purchase or the PURPOSE of the item purchase within a champion's play pattern should define whether it is appropriate for a given champion in a given role?
I would agree that Void Staff does not feel like a support item to me, but is purchased primarily because it is absurdly undercosted late game when MR values are high and because supports tend to have low offensive scaling with non-penetration stats.
I think he is emphasizing the failure to make traditional supports more viable by giving them ap utility scalings.
Encouraging supports to buy ap just to have less impact than a thresh/leona/annie? It just doesnt work because for most supports, its better to build gold generation, sightstone, and mikaels, which leaves very little gold for ap.
So it leaves traditional supports weaker than these other supports who do damage and have high utility WITHOUT having to build lots of ap. The only thing giving supports utility scalings did was make midlane lulu really strong, who was nerfed subsequently anyways, making her support even weaker.
Implying Lulu with "support" items is better than a full Ap Lulu even in supportive terms. I think she is not.
When did i imply this? I am pretty sure that i was stating the opposite. That utility scalings made ap mid Lulu really strong, which subsequently led to her nerfs(which ended up hurting support lulu more than midlane lulu).
"I think he is emphasizing the failure to make traditional supports more viable by giving them ap utility scalings.". I don't think it was a failure at all and it seems you think so. AP supports are stronger than "utility items" supports so I think your post is kind of misleading.
Except by the traditional supports who received the ap scalings are weak right now compared to the supports who didnt receive utility scalings. So it was a failure because traditional supports are still weak in the support role.
Exactly this.
If supports are supposed to build AP for their utility, and the gold flow exists to do it, then Mages and Tanks will generally be better since they have utility that doesn't need to be bought and can then use the gold to buy AP for damage for tank items.
In bot lane, why care if Sona can heal a little bit or if Janna has a slow when Thresh, Leona, and Annie can lock down a target and actually contribute to killing it? I get that the pros make stuff look OP, but I'm an average Bronze player and at my level Traditional Supports are pretty meh. I actually do better going Leblanc or Ahri bot lane...
I think the clear solution to that is to make mage/tank utility scale and nerf the base utility. Leona, Annie, and Thresh's utility doesn't change based on their income. The exception to this is CDR, but that applies to everyone.
For example, make Thresh's lantern distance shorter, but scale. Make his hook pull the target a shorter distance, but pull closer to him with a scaling. Basically it would scale from a bandage toss to a naut hook to a blitz hook given enough AP/whatever scaling.
The same thing goes for Leona, except her kit is difficult to give utility scalings without touching CC duration. And Riot said no on scaling CC duration.
Putting more utility scaling in the game won't fix the fact that utility scaling is bad....
When you're comparing strong base utility with no scaling to scaling utility then of course it will be bad. It's because Riot put utility on so many champions - not just mages - that we're running into problems.
When Yasuo came out a Rioter said Riot was focusing more on personal mobility over CC for catching power. The reason is because CC is catching power for everyone, meaning you can stack them together. Personal mobility is only catching power for yourself and not stackable.
My point? Riot acknowledged that they really shouldn't be putting CC on everything. What's more is that anything that isn't a support shouldn't have scaling CC because it's not cohesive with the champion's purpose. The precedence is the complete opposite. Nobody had scaling utility, so of course anything that depends on a scaling is going to be comparatively bad. That's why I said put utility scalings on more thing and replace team utility with personal utility for those without scalings.
That aside, you're saying utility scalings are bad when supports still tend to focus on items that oftentimes don't scale their utility. Yes, I'm talking to you Sightstone, Crucible, and Talisman.
I think we are having a bit of communication failure here. I don't like utility scaling. At all. I think it's ridiculous in concept and the way that it functions in League requires people to buy non-utility items and pure offensive to get really solid scaling on their utility. That is wrong. If a champion is designed around utility, they should be able to function without having to buy four or five strong offensive items. Sona shouldn't need a Deathcap, DFG, and Void Staff to get her utility values equal to what they were pre-scaling changes. That encourages people play support to buy items that are selfish in nature and not designed around supporting or utility.
Again, this is all just my personal opinion, and I know that some people disagree with me fundamentally. All I'm saying is that the way to fix an issue that is caused by X game mechanic isn't to add in more X game mechanic. It's the exact same issue as mobility creep or power creep. Scaling creep is just as relevant and continuing to shove that form of design onto every champion and every role will lead to early game being largely irrelevant if it continues.
Don't take this personally but I could not disagree with you more.
First off let me ask you this: Why do you call AP items offensive items? Void staff is offensive, I'll give you that, but that's because pen is just messed up. All AP items do is scale something. It does not have to be an offensive scaling. That being said, it's fine if supports scale offensively. I think offensive damage scalings should not be on supports.
What I really don't understand is why people would rather be buying traditional support items over scaling items. It doesn't make you stronger by enhancing your kit. It makes you stronger by giving you an ability that anyone could have. It strips uniqueness away from supports. It's the difference between saying "I can't wait to get money on Nami to make my heals huge" and "I can't wait to get money on Nami to buy an item that has nothing to do with my kit." I find nothing appealing about the latter, and I'm glad Morello shares my opinion. To be clear, buying AP items on supports does not make you selfish. You're scaling your ability to support. I would rather have a different stat than AP be used for utility scaling though. It would mean you get to balance items that supports and mages will be using separately.
I'll give you this: You're right that supports shouldn't need 3 huge items just to break even with where they were before the changes. But keep in mind that supports had huge base utility because they were expected to have no gold. Their base utility had to suffice. I think what you really don't like is that with a generic pickup of sightstone + gold gen item you're not getting anything out of your utility scalings. You pretty much have to get these items though. That's the massive disadvantage of trying to fix the gold issue with items. Supports are absolutely forced to get those items, which means they can't take advantage of their utility scalings.
To backtrack, I said that supports were given huge base utility because they were expected to not get gold. But everything changed when the Fire Nation attacked support changes came through. Actually that's not true. Leona (for the most part), Thresh, and Annie didn't change. Their utility still does not scale. Their abilities have the same base effect that they always had, which were purposely made strong to work without gold. Now they have gold and strong bases. That is why I suggested nerfing their bases and adding a scaling. You say the issue is that scalings in their own right are bad, but that's wrong. It's that depending on scalings is bad when your opponent does not depend on scalings. If you want to call something power creep it would be the state of support bases prior to the changes. Supports became less and less farm dependent until you ended up with supports like Thresh and Leona whose utility has no change regardless of whether they have 0 AP or 1000 AP. Now look who's consistently strong: the two supports who were given that huge base power, none of which was replaced with scalings. Until you get rid of that power creep then supports who depend on scalings will have a harder time.
I have to reply to this one because of the nesting limit in this format: sorry about that.
And don't worry about it, as long as you aren't insulting and actually discussing things civilly I'm more than happy to have someone disagree with me and hear their perspective, and I'll start by saying you have some pretty good points, and I'll try to address/counter those here.
Why do you call AP items offensive items?
For the same reason that I call Stattik Shiv an offensive item or BloodThirster. You don't say BT is utility because it gives lifesteal, so why should Rylai's be utility because it grants a slow? It's purpose is offensive, and the scaling it provides has always been linked with offensive power (which is more a perception issue in the community than an actual problem to be fair).
why people would rather be buying traditional support items
This is more of opinion than anything else, so I can't really provide too much other than my perspective, hope that's okay. First, we just have to accept that their is going to be some cookie cutter nature to item builds, that is just an inherent portion of the system League has. It's the same thing with ADC builds and tanks for the most part. If all supports start picking up Rylai's, DFG, and Deathcap, wouldn't that be just as non-unique as everyone building SS, Ascension, Crucible? A different statistical value is a good idea actually. It would require a bit of work, but if this is the mechanism that Riot wants to use moving forward, I personally believe they owe it to the community to do it the right way, even if that means extra work. Also, like I mentioned in a previous comment, whether or not it is a selfish action depends on the player's intent, not just the flat factual view of what is could potentially be used for. Let's be honest here, if a LB support buys a DFG and Sorc Shoes then proceeds to constantly roam around the jungle trying to get picks instead of warding and helping the team, that is selfish, regardless of whether or not the item could be used to assist the team.
Supports are absolutely forced to get those items, which means they can't take advantage of their utility scalings
I don't mind the fact that I'm "required" to get a sightstone. You really aren't required to get a gold generation item, I've done numerous games where I don't and can still keep up in gold by being smart about my activities and helping to make plays with my other purchases. You don't need to abuse AP items to be a useful support. I will always believe that a support that is providing solid vision for their team and working to deny enemy vision is drastically more helpful and impactful in a game then a "support" that is blatantly ignoring vision responsibilities to build AP trying to carry.
You say the issue is that scalings in their own right are bad
That isn't what I'm saying. Or at least that isn't what I'm trying to say. Scaling has always existed in this game and it needs to, otherwise levels would obviously be irrelevant. I'm saying that forcing all of this repeated scaling variations is damaging the game. If you repeatedly lower base values over and over and enforce more and more scaling, then you are slowly making early game matter less and less. To a certain that is good, because you don't want the game to be over after first blood. But it can also be bad. If all of my team's lanes win, and by win I mean dumpster the opponent. Three to five kills and double the CS of the enemy, that should matter. Currently it still does, but constantly shifting everything to scaling will gradually reduce that relevance, thus making it scaling creep. Power creep and mobility creep were just examples of similar terms, I wasn't specifically referencing them, sorry if that was confusing.
If you want to call something power creep
All I'm going to say is that I personally feel that League is beginning to develop a pretty bad power creep issue. And mobility creep is right up there with it.
You don't say BT is utility because it gives lifesteal, so why should Rylai's be utility because it grants a slow?
The item itself is not utility, it's what the item is used for. Though I would say that Rylai's has utility even if it isn't designed specifically for utility. Imagine if there was a support with a slow that scales hard with AD (and for the sake of argument AD doesn't contribute to this champion's AA). For that champion a Bloodthirster certainly would contribute to the champion's utility. My point is that it's how the champion uses the stat that determines what the stat is classified as.
As another example that's probably a lot cleaner that an AD scaling support... look at CDR. Let's say Ziggs gets CDR capped. He's going to be tossing out a ton of Qs for a ton of damage. In this case it's clearly a damage scaling. Now let's say Nami gets CDR capped. She's going to be tossing out a ton of Ws for a ton of healing. Now it's a utility scaling. Again, my point is that it depends on how your abilities scale that determine what the stat is for.
If all supports start picking up Rylai's, DFG, and Deathcap, wouldn't that be just as non-unique as everyone building SS, Ascension, Crucible?
I'm not annoyed about active items because they're cookie cutter. I do think cookie cutter builds are an issue, but a separate issue. I have two problems with support items; One problem is with actives and the other is specifically with the gold items.
My problem with actives I think I've said pretty clearly, but I could clarify it a little more. I understand this is opinion. It's more that I hate any active item rather than hating a cookie cutter build of active items. Cookie cutter builds are annoying because there's a dominant strategy in terms of build path. That's true of any cookie cutter build, active items or not. Active items have the addition problem of that each individual active takes away from the champion's identity. It takes away from my choice of champion if I know I will always be able to buy an item to remove CC, even if my champion was a minion.
I don't mind the fact that I'm "required" to get a sightstone. You really aren't required to get a gold generation item, I've done numerous games where I don't and can still keep up in gold by being smart about my activities and helping to make plays with my other purchases. You don't need to abuse AP items to be a useful support. I will always believe that a support that is providing solid vision for their team and working to deny enemy vision is drastically more helpful and impactful in a game then a "support" that is blatantly ignoring vision responsibilities to build AP trying to carry.
My problem with gold items is because gold items were an incomplete solution to lack of gold. Sure you can manage without a gold gen item, but you're not going to have the same gold as another teammate that doesn't need to go out of their way to have gold.
And I'm not at all debating that a ward bitch isn't impactful. It's that being a ward bitch, albeit less of a ward bitch than in S3, is playing a totally different game. Again, you're not being valued for your kit. You're being valued because you can buy an effect (vision) that everybody has access to. This problem is very intertwined with the vision system being implemented through (consumable) wards. Ideally I would like to see a vision system that cannot be optimized so that one player carries the majority of the burden. That way I could participate in vision "responsibilities" to the same degree as everyone else and build items that have synergy with my kit.
...that should matter. Currently it still does, but constantly shifting everything to scaling will gradually reduce that relevance, ...
This isn't a problem with scaling existing. This is a problem with being able to obtain scaling even if you're shut down.
<Character limit reached. Will continue in another post>Try looking at this as an analogy to Renekton and Mundo. Renekton's generally known for having a strong early game, but he falls of lategame. Mundo is the opposite. You can still differentiate between an early game and late game support. Look at Soraka; she's strong late game. Compare a Janna whose shield AD scales starts low and scales to be huge vs a Janna where it starts decently but doesn't scale well. The former would be valued if you manage to get to the lategame, and the latter would be valued early game.
The difficulty in doing this arises when CC is thrown into the mix. CC puts you out of position, which even for a split second can mean your death in LoL. CC never really "falls off," so there's really not much different between an early game CCer and late game CCer. Actually I'd say the scaling CC is worse because "early game" CC gets the job done and "late game" CC is overkill with a bad early game. It's like comparing a Blitz hook into 5 people to a Blitz hook and Morg snare into 5 people. Either way the person that got hooked is probably dead, so why bother with the snare?
The last thing I want to say is about LB "support." I would call that a support only very loosely. I'd more just call that a duo lane with a mage with some utility. If a Nami went into a solo lane I'd still call her a support. She's just a richer support with nobody to support.
Rylai's, maybe, but the active on DFG does way too much damage to be supporty, and it's almost always used by burst mages to become even burstier.
There's also the fact that even if a support wants AP entirely for their utility scalings and not to do damage, their only real choice for a boatload of AP in one or two slots is basically just Rabadon's and Zhonya's, both of which are traditionally mid items, though Zhonya's is now a 'if you can possibly use AP, get it' item.
Regarding DFG, I disagree with you. Its other use cases do not invalidate its support use case. If its active happens to give the support champ one good damage ability and ALSO lets other AP champs on the team pile on, that's support. Force multiplication in any form is, in my opinion, in the support wheelhouse.
It also procs the
slow effect, so I sometimes get it just to have another active ability to cause slow-mania along with
and
.
EDIT: Also, there really isn't any other way to boost AP carries anymore since the change to
passive. So we either make
or
in order to increase damage output.
But why can't we have one? I mean, imagine having that team buff without the high cost of AP caster items. How great would it be to be able to take an AP heavy team and support them with an AP boost item, that isn't completely based on the owners damage.
To be fair my friends and I all agree that DFG should only amplify the users damage, not all damage. NO ONE buys it for the team effect, only the selfish effect. I actually wonder how many people out there even know that it amplifies your allies damage as well as your own.
I think an important aspect about this topic that most people forget to bring up is intent. If a support is building a DFG (for instance you'll see some Diamond or Challenger players build it on Blitz) because they are pulling the enemy in then using it on them to increase their teams damage, that's a great support purchase. If the support is building it because they didn't want to play support and decided to play selfishly with the DFG, then it's not a supporting item.
How the item is used by the player is important, not just the stats on the item or the active. Possible uses aren't relevant in this topic, because what the player could be doing to support the team doesn't matter if their intent is to not support the team. You can preach good uses all day long, but if we consistently see "supports" building offensive items just to try to play selfishly instead of support the team, then there is a problem.
Sure "All spells now slow" is awesome, but give us an item that does that with an extra ward or something support worthy.
I guess what I'm trying to say is since the AP scaling changes to "supports" they are all now AP casters. I often wonder what happened to Aegis/Zekes/Crucible then remember, most people playing Support these days are people who couldn't get mid and are playing that so they can still have their champ.
Personally I think both the ITEM AND PURPOSE matter, but the wrong items and purposes are being used. Like I said above, "All spells now slow" and even "Mark a target; magic damage dealers on your team deal more damage to them" are AWESOME but give us a team buffing item that does that, not an AP caster item. Wards(which are mostly covered by sightstone), team buffing (Of god I'd love to see more items like zekes that give the passive/active of high end caster items), enemy team debuffing (Frozen heart kinda stuff).
I mean, how awesome would it be to be able to take Morgana support for her utility and be able to pick up an item for the cost of a sightstone that gave the active of zhonyas? Or the passive of Rylais but without the AP! That means we could keep the fun of utility supports without the high item cost of an AP caster item.
I personally believe in a utility based support, not a caster damage based support. If we could find a way to keep the fun of the utilities but cut the AP out of the equation, support could be a unique roll again instead of a back up mid.
Actually abyssal scepter could work as a support item. The auras wont stack over the entire team, but if two people have it then they get the double aura. so their spells benefit from it.
I might be wrong though.
The only two non-support items there are Rabadons and Void Staff. Abyssal, DFG, and Rylai's all benefit the team. And on many supports that scale with AP, AP increases the support's utility (Lulu, Janna, Soraka, or Morgana). But on some supports, such as Annie or Morgana, it helps to build AP because part of what those supports bring to the table is significant damage and AP ratios
Rylai's has been core or near core on Soraka for ages. It's always been good on her, she just couldn't afford it until this season.
Also, 3 of those support items are crap and one of them isn't that great compared to it's alternative. No support in his right mind would get them.
This has nothing to do with riot, but the players themselves, lol...
In my opinion the problem lies on why getting a pure utility if you can have utility and damage or utility and tankyness. Champions that can only offer utility aren't being picked as much as the ones that also do other stuff, even when their utility is way lower.
On a side note, change Nami Tidecaller's Blessing to something like "Connects with target allied champion, adding X magic damage to his auto attacks while costing you Y mana. Gives half the move speed from passive at each attack. Casting again or moving Z teemos away breaks the connection."