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If atmas impaler granted scaling health per attack damage instead

Critkeeper··3 votes·899 views

It would see more usage and here is why:

Base champion health on average quadruples over the course of a game, not counting itemization. This means that the bonus attack damage per health granted by atmas impaler is strongly skewed to be more powerful per champion level, which severely restricts how powerful it can be as an item bought in the earlier levels.

Base champion ad on average approximately doubles over the course of a game, not counting itemization. That means that the item's power as something that can be bought in the earlier levels would not be nearly as restricted if it granted health per ad rather than ad per health.

Furthermore, there are many better hybrid and pure defensive options available to champions who would favor the current atmas impaler, which does not do any specific job better than the alternatives. This change would cause atma to atleast make it a favorable choice for high attack damage assassins who want some more durability vs physical damage without devoting an entire item slot to a pure defensive function. Much of the value of the item is tied up in the critical strike chance, which would require the assassin a longer window of engagement to access reliably, which is a fair trade off for the free durability.

8 Comments

Dvolt4 votes

An offensive item which grants health for every point of Attack damage you have. You might not see a problem with this item, but I do. You've ignored the cases of champions such as Tryndamere who gain bonus ad for being at low health percentages, and the combination with maw of malmortius. Granting more tank-like attributes to Melee ADC's is crazy, and would simply make items such as Liandry's torment and Blade of the Ruined King deal even more damage to these targets.

I also feel you mis understand the target for this item. Assassin's don't use this. The item is designed for Tanky DPS champions, such as J4 and Garen...

Critkeeper1 votes

The primary reason Atmas was nerfed to remain a low power low access item according to RIOT is it enforces a must buy situation in the brusier class.

Now I won't bring up counterpoints like the fact that boots are designed to be must buy or the fact that last whisper is effectively must buy, because I agree with them in the regard that must buy items are usually bad for games. I disagree with them on the notion that they are sometimes acceptable for specific reasons-- my stance is more assigned more strongly-- I think must buy items are purely nonchoice bloat which adds game complexity with no appreciable increase in fun or other value. If it were up to me boots would either be free similar to trinkets with purchasable upgrades, or they would not exist at all for example. And If it were up to me I'd clean up armor pen and armor interaction.

All that aside, Atmas cannot be a successful bruiser item with the intended function. It cannot grant scaling offense for building defense or vice versa to the bruiser or fighter class because of how strongly that sort of mechanism would interact with the class. It really would create a must buy scenario.

This is why I suggest retuning it to be more appropriate and powerful to another class. Let it still exist, but be no longer something a fighter or brusier would ideally like to devote an item slot to. I suggest making it fairly lackluster on most classes and quite powerful on the small caste of champions that can actually acquire very large amounts of attack damage. Having an item that is only ideal on a small caste of champions (compared to the entire roster) / a specific class isn't a new ideal. Trinity force, Infinity edge, Nashors tooth and Deathfire grasp are all such items.

I'm not talking about the levels of attack damage you typically see on carries either. More than that.

Mostly, I'm referring to people who devote most of their build to 300 or more bonus AD, which is something assassins are more enabled to do than other classes.

As for the point about melee carries, even they are required to divert some of their build to critical strike chance and attack speed, so they will not make as much use of the passive as a raw damage stacking assassin would. What tank stats they can acquire could just as easily be acquired with a raw defense item. Keep in mind that atmas impaler's only offensive stat with this change is crit chance, and for defense it grants scaling health and some flat armor.

The power of the item depends entirely on how high the scaling is, and whether the value of those stats could exceed a pure defensive item like randuins for the typical amount of attack damage a melee carry can be expected to acquire, which is a point of speculation / numerical balance, not a counterargument to the premise of the item itself.

Hyrum Graff3 votes

My reaction to your initial post was: now carries all purchase this as their defensive item, and are harder to kill while still dealing massive damage.

After this explanation, though, I think it might be possible to adjust the numbers so it won't be a ridiculous item.

Dvolt1 votes

Ah, joy. A nice, detailed response I can sink my teeth into. Thanks for the meal~

Starting off simply, I do agree with the reason behind the nerf. When I came in during the Darius patch, there was not a single game I would play a bruiser without building Atma's. In an ideal world (a state no MOBA can ever exist in), Champions like Mundo, who scale with bonus health, would pick up Atma's as a way to increase their threat level during team fights, while understanding that they would be trading off more health for armor and some crit chance. However, as you have identified, the item instead exists so it cannot be worth the cost without the risk of being overused.

Continuing on, I find myself pleasantly surprised to hear a rational view of item design. For all I appreciate League's item system for being sometimes more coherent than that of HoN's or Dota 2's (situationally depending), it still has some relics that tune out new players. Although it has undeniably gotten better (I still remember when Black Cleaver was called a troll item...), there are still some things which are weird. Don't get me wrong, I like the choice offered with the multiple boots, and appreciate what they do, it's just that it makes little sense why Mercury treads should be more expensive than Boots of Swiftness, or Sorcerer's shoes more than Lucidity.

Once again, I can put more appreciation into your idea in this slightly more lengthy post. You don't mean "You have around 100 AD, have 500 additional HP." Rather, your overhaul is more designed for Champions such as Master Yi, champions who find they scale best with RAW damage numbers, not necessarily some damage, some attack speed, some hp. On this note, I can offer much more support to the concept. I'll admit, I thought you were just aiming for making AD Carries harder to kill, hah...

Now, question. How do you feel about Component items, such as the old Emblem of Valor, or Spectre's Cowl? I sorta feel that for a high-tier item to be used constantly, it needs a midway stage, like how Maw has Hexdrinker to build into it. Is it viable for an item like Atma's to have such a state?

Critkeeper1 votes

The power acquired through items is quantized at the moment of purchase-- you do not continuously access the power over time. In other words, you have all of the power "at once". Even items like ROA which try to deliver power over time only deliver it in a finite number of chunks rather than continuously.

This is important because the larger the chunk the more gold must be expended to access the power of that item. A large chunk requires holding onto gold for a longer period of time, making you weaker than an opponent who spends their gold immediately.

The only significant reason for any high tier item to not have component items and instead have very expensive basic items is to discourage building them early. Component items are invariably composed of cheap basic items like tome and longsword, making them more practical to build earlier in the game where any amount of swing in power no matter how small could play a significant factor in the evolution of the game.

Infinity edge is composed of large items to intentionally make it impractical to rush. Blade of the ruined king is composed of many small items to intentionally make it easy to rush.

The question should then be "Should this item be rushed or not rushed? Should I discourage players from rushing it for gameplay or balance reasons?". For atmas impaler, which becomes significantly stronger as your champion levels increase, It is prudent to wait until you have acquired many levels and gear before building it. This suggests that atmas should consist of large hard to build items, like chain vest and agility cloak.

The avarice blade is worth special mention because it is an item that is easy to build but allows you to trade inventory space for what is as near to a "continuous" flow of power as the game can provide, a steady increase in gold income over time. Naturally holding that item for longer means accessing more power later. The problem is that difficult to build items composed of large basic items like infinity edge already do this-- you already get more power than an easier to build item or there would hardly be a reason to build them at all.

The real functional intent of avarice blade in an item like atmas impaler is to provide you with the choice to give the atmas' impaler a virtual increase in power (reduced cost) by trading an item slot during a significant portion of the game. That in itself, the power of being able to make a choice-- having an option rather than not having any option, is a sort of higher level power, a strategic power.

Most players do not consider their choices this deeply though, and most players do not consciously trade power now for power later with their itemization choices. The last time this was actively done by the player base Heart of Gold was removed from the game because it stagnated the game and removed interaction for the greater portion of the game, since the defacto norm was for everyone to trade power for later. That item had its own issues that allowed that to happen, specifically it granted regeneration that removed the risk involved with making the trade "power later for power now". Avarice blade does not do this.

In any case I can see the value of having avarice blade in the recipe for an item, but unfortunately the choice is artificial. Even if you do not want to trade the power in the way described you are forced to because it is a part of the item's build path, and unless you wish to simply build the avarice blade as part of the item recipe so that it does not occupy an item slot for any time at all, you will build it at some point. If the item had multiple build paths this would not be an issue, but it would complicate the game.

I do not assign significant gameplay to avarice blade and in my opinion atmas should have larger more expensive basic tier item components that are difficult to build, in order to encourage people to build other items and delay building atmas until acquiring gear and levels, which is when it will be stronger.

Dvolt1 votes

Hahaha... I completely forgot avarice blade built into Atma's... Shows how often I built it in Season 3 and 4...

ReyKingRex1 votes

I like Atma's as it actually. It's a niche item so I like to build it when I'm ahead in top lane. According to Leaguepedia, It's 100% gold efficient at lvl 13 for all champs (1204 HP = 18 AD) And at 4000hp you have 60 AD. That makes the item 332% gold efficient.

~2100 base HP + Warmogs + Randuins or Sunfire + Spirit Visage = ~4000 hp. 60 AD and 15% crit chance. That fucking hurts. Add a Botrk on top of that. GG.

It's just a niche item. Kinda like Twin Shadows, another item I don't see often.

If you want more HP for AD, buy more blood thirsters IMO lol. 200 AD fully stacked and 24% lifesteal.

Tulare1 votes

They'd have to change the name then. It's almost certainly an homage to the various Atma swords of the Final Fantasy series, which grew stronger the more HP the character wielding them had.

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