We want marksmen to be the go to class for taking down…

Critkeeper · 2017-09-13T14:28:48.524Z

--- ok so they should be great against burly heroes-- i'm assuming they are weak to squisher damage dealers, divers, and skirmishers right? No. --- what wait, why? Because they can't do anything to the burly guys if they are dead. --- so you want a champion with an inherent advantage in the laning phase by justice of being ranged / being able to farm safely even when pushed in and being able to harass other champions under tower-- AND they should be great against the burly heroes who often have a weak early laning phase and get bullied by said range, AND they should be able to 1v1 any other class? WHAT? Hold on there, we didn't say they could 1v1 any other class, we just said they aren't weak to other classes --- Explain. We want marksmen to beat burly dudes, and we will give them the tools to do that. If marksmen get blown up in team fights before they can pump out any damage, they feel useless-- so we are going to make them EFFECTIVELY immune to most divers and assassins in the context of a large team fights. --- How do you intend to do that without making everything else feel like garbage? We noticed that supports are much better when paired with a marksman than with a melee damage dealer or tank, so we are going to double down on that and make sure that supports will be able to peel anything off of their adc, even classes that are meant to counter the adc. --- So you are saying that support + adc has no counter. Umm. Well uh... you can gank bot lane before they become a problem and win games that way. --- Thats fucking boring. The game shouldn't be decided based on who ganks bot lane the most. Yeah but how are marksmen supposed to actually play the game if they just die before they can do anything in a team fight? --- How is anyone else? Hell, most skirmishers can't even team fight at all because of the marksmen + support combo, and yet they still win by split pushing. You are essentially saying the agency and fun of the marksmen + support lane trumps everything else. We don't think it trumps everything else, but we don't want marksmen to be exposed to their weakness of being bursted too often because they just die immediately, and wouldn't be able to play. --- Maybe you should bring up their durability and bring down their ridiculous damage. They wouldn't be as fun to play. --- Yeah, and the way it is now, they aren't fun to play against. Like I said, you are valuing their fun above anyone else's. We think everyone can have fun playing around the marksmen though. Different classes can protect and aid them in different ways. --- Might as well call it league of marksmen. Not everyone wants to play bot lane. Not everyone wants to play "bigger" bot lane after the laning phase ends. We believe in the formula of having people work together around one or two valuable team members. It creates a dynamic. --- In other words you can't figure out a formula for giving everyone equal agency without involving the marksmen because the marksmen steals agency from allies and enemies. Kind of yeah, the marksmen does free damage to anything in range by auto attacking, so naturally they zone out a lot of other champions and put a kind of time limit on team fights. We do think they take a bit of agency from the enemy team, probably more than average, but they don't necessarily take agency from their allies-- because their allies can protect them. --- Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps people would have more fun protecting eachother at will and having the option to engage their target of choice without the polarizing effect of a marksman making the whole world revolve around them? Yeah but how could you achieve balance that way? --- By doing your job.

kasfasSep 13, 20177 votes

I see your argument, and I have a counter argument. However I don't have the time or attention now to give it to you.

I'll get back to you with my argument in about 3 hours.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/omoNXtnVt1g/maxresdefault.jpg

Well, I've had a problem. I had a response almost completed for you, but my stupid phone just reset the webpage and now it got deleted. So unfortunately I'm going to need to give you a shorter version as I'm not going to spend another 40 minutes rewriting the whole response.

Just a heads up to those of you who don't get it. This isn't a formulated argument, just a series of points that should be true about the game. The full argument got deleted.

A: marksmen should lose 1v1s past one item on even footing with basically every class but enchanters, wardens, and some vanguards. Champs who don't are cancer and are left weak.

B: assassins should have exclusive access to 1v2 a support and an adc and come out ahead (not necessarily a kill, possibly just some cool downs and a forced back). About 40% of 1v2 fights should go in favour of an assassin.

C: Assasins should blow up in teamfights if ccd because of team focus, not adc autos. A cc from the support, some damage from the Mage, and a few autos from the adc should be enough to kill the assassin, but without assistance the assassin should be free to escape.

D: Divers should be threatening in teamfight a with their damage, but also their cc, and shouldn't die as quickly as an assassin. They should have the damage to kill the adc, but also have the cc to prevent them from kiting effectively meaning the support needs to be on them 24/7 to beat them.

E: Enchanters are too effective at helping self sufficient/ Hypercarry adcs. They need to have less of their power put into preventing the diver from doing something, and more into directly starting something. Proactivity should be rewarded significantly more than reactivity.

F: If point E isn't applied, then adcs shouldn't be allowed to be self sufficient or have any items that promote self sufficiency. They should rely on being babied by their support and only function at top effectiveness when an enchanted is introduced as their support.

So I don't necessarily disagree with you, but you do lack the context that these complaints come from, which is the current enchanter/ self sufficient hypercarry meta.

Sorry I couldn't get you the full version (plus this isn't really an argument just a comparably ollection of points), but sometimes s*** happens.

toastMonkeySep 13, 201716 votes

{quoted}

I see your argument, and I have a counter argument. However I don't have the time or attention now to give it to you.

I'll get back to you with my argument in about 3 hours.

[slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

Starcraft243verSep 13, 20172 votes

Just posting here to have an anchor for when you post your argument.

ThefrostyvikingSep 13, 201710 votes

{quoted}

I see your argument, and I have a counter argument. However I don't have the time or attention now to give it to you.

I'll get back to you with my argument in about 3 hours.

It's good that someone got an idea of what i was saying because i was ranting with no real plan in mind......................

Except that playing a marksman like Ashe or KogMaw and expecting to survive a 1v1 against a assassin like Zed is kinda silly. It all started from there.

Oh and that expecting to win 1v2's like is a privilege for playing a particular class is also silly.

SoryInAdvanceSep 13, 20173 votes

I'd love to see you argue against an assassin not being able to 1v3...

It Hertz When IPSep 14, 20171 votes

{quoted}

B: assassins should have exclusive access to 1v2 a support and an adc and come out ahead (not necessarily a kill, possibly just some cool downs and a forced back). About 40% of 1v2 fights should go in favour of an assassin.

This is where the problem arises, because to do this you either need really high burst damage (which most burst mages can already do, but from further away, meaning an assassin's should be better) or high single target CC (it's not 1v2 if one of the 2 can't do anything!), either one of which makes them really aggravating to lane against. With the assassin rework, most assassins are now just worse burst mages with crappy range.

IMO assassins should be able to jump in 1v2, kill the target ADC or mage, then get out mostly alive, but ONLY if the ADC was already damaged, CCed, or otherwise weakened (everything on CD, OOM, etc). A full-strength ADC standing next to a full strength support should NOT be overly at risk from a non-fed assassin, because otherwise ADCs have zero ability to go anywhere or do anything without a full team protecting them, which shuts down a LOT of flanking or splitpushing tactics and puts us right back at the "everyone exists to protect the ADC".

C: Assasins should blow up in teamfights if ccd because of team focus, not adc autos. A cc from the support, some damage from the Mage, and a few autos from the adc should be enough to kill the assassin, but without assistance the assassin should be free to escape.

The difficulty is how you make them resistant to ADC AA's without making them durable against all physical damage. Also, the mage has to be ready to react when the assassin dives. Before the assassin rework most of the top assassins could jump in and get their full burst rotation off before the mage nearby had the time to react, and God forbid the mage not be nearby. See above for how well the assassin rework "helped".

F: If point E isn't applied, then adcs shouldn't be allowed to be self sufficient or have any items that promote self sufficiency. They should rely on being babied by their support and only function at top effectiveness when an enchanted is introduced as their support.

I think we already see this to a limited extent in laning; ADCs aren't getting lifesteal until they have a complete item (IE/Ghostblade/whatever), T2 boots, and a component done (Zeal/Caulfields/etc) already done. For this point, I think if Warlords was straight-up removed, we'd be a lot closer to a solution.

kasfasSep 14, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=It Hertz When IP,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EZ4yZ55u,comment-id=000400000009,timestamp=2017-09-14T14:44:18.046+0000)

This is where the problem arises, because to do this you either need really high burst damage (which most burst mages can already do, but from further away, meaning an assassin's should be better) or high single target CC (it's not 1v2 if one of the 2 can't do anything!), either one of which makes them really aggravating to lane against. With the assassin rework, most assassins are now just worse burst mages with crappy range.

I never said i know what to do, or how to do it, I just know that assassins should have this strength. I'm not in the business of assassins and their balance so I can't say much else here.

IMO assassins should be able to jump in 1v2, kill the target ADC or mage, then get out mostly alive, but ONLY if the ADC was already damaged, CCed, or otherwise weakened (everything on CD, OOM, etc). A full-strength ADC standing next to a full strength support should NOT be overly at risk from a non-fed assassin, because otherwise ADCs have zero ability to go anywhere or do anything without a full team protecting them, which shuts down a LOT of flanking or splitpushing tactics and puts us right back at the "everyone exists to protect the ADC".

The problem is we are in a protect the adc meta. Every class right now is designed to assist the adc which is a problem.

Additionally, if a ranged glass cannon cant be killed easily by a mobile damage dealer designed to kill them then there's a problem. The assassin should be a MASSIVE threat to the adc, enough so to warrant the adc not going anywhere that they know the assassin could be.

The difficulty is how you make them resistant to ADC AA's without making them durable against all physical damage. Also, the mage has to be ready to react when the assassin dives. Before the assassin rework most of the top assassins could jump in and get their full burst rotation off before the mage nearby had the time to react, and God forbid the mage not be nearby. See above for how well the assassin rework "helped".

There was once an active on ghost blade that would block one auto attack. I think a similar function could be useful. On an item with lethality, give it an active that blocks all damage from autos that crit for 1 second or something of the like. I'm not thinking about balance right now either so I don't know how good this would be.

I think we already see this to a limited extent in laning; ADCs aren't getting lifesteal until they have a complete item (IE/Ghostblade/whatever), T2 boots, and a component done (Zeal/Caulfields/etc) already done. For this point, I think if Warlords was straight-up removed, we'd be a lot closer to a solution.

That is good, but then some classes damage isn't enough to kill the adc anymore. Like divers and juggernauts will just end up being healed off of, which is problematic.

KennysDreamGirlSep 13, 20177 votes

i think Xayah could do well against Zed Jax if she isnt insanely behind and they arent insanely fed

ThefrostyvikingSep 13, 20174 votes

When i think about it, Xayah could possibly do well against zed if she manages to dodge his ulti properly so some guesswork about that.

But lethality+duskblade is so lethal that on some mages i splendidly avoided a Zed's ult damage only to get shredded anyway right after. (from 90-80% health)

Jax is terrifying for a marksman tho ,because he can just build really bulky and his ulti boosts his armor even more. Then he just needs to jump ontop of Xayah and start smacking her to make her ulti.

Then if he uses his good speed and short CD Q to avoid her E and auto attacks with his E at that point.

It´s how i´d play it anyway, success would depend on how much of a warning Xayah has and if you can manage to force her ulti out without using your E as jax.

It should be very doable but takes a bit of proper chaining abilties while moving after the obviously fleeing Xayah while also keeping her feathers in mind.

But in overall i´d say the matchup greatly favors Jax since he has the mobility to avoid Xayah's E and his own E to block her chances at getting several autos in on him.

Needless to say, if jax get's a stun in then chances are he´s already won.

KennysDreamGirlSep 13, 20174 votes

ofcourse it favors him wether you dodge stun or not. i think she has even a small chance(early that is) to beat jax 1v1

ModAcademy KaynSep 13, 20173 votes

I appreciate this comment.

JayFoeSep 13, 20177 votes

I think a big issue is that no other roles have the synergy and potential an ADC has, so losing 1v1 doesn't matter because the game is ultimately 5v5.

If there's no way to ever force an ADC to be alone or at risk, it doesn't matter that they lose 1v1. They win 2v2 and up, and they win hard.

What's the counterplay to "stay within half a screen distance of my support?" Assassins, divers, bruisers, and the like have no options for dealing with an ADC that knows to stick with their guardian(s).

Unlike ADCs, assassins and their divey allies aren't big power multipliers, and they tend to have small windows of big power instead of big consistent damage. Having a Janna or Sejuani protect a Zed isn't very useful. They don't have a good 2v2 or 5v5 option in this meta.

Weak towers and the popularity of defensive / CC tanks indirectly helps ADCs as well, as it makes split pushing less viable. That said, I don't think it's a good idea to balance a huge portion of the game's roster on "don't team fight, just split push."

ThefrostyvikingSep 13, 20172 votes

CC tanks are definately a big reason why assassins are being boned so hard i agree, the big guys were always the way to handle those slippery fellows.

But even bigger is the fact that if a team doesn't have a tank to match the other team they are essentially boned, because ironically only a tank can really restrict the movements of another tank well, others will just put themselves in the line of fire for mage and marksmen.

TerozuSep 14, 20172 votes

So... The ADC is Yuna, and the support is Tidus? (Im srry you said guardians ive been playing the remaster i had too...).

SqueySep 13, 20171 votes

yes an assassin shouldnt be expected to win a 1v2. However your basically saying that as long as the adc is with his support, then the assassin should be useless. My biggest issue right now is that an adc can do similar burst of assassins while the support makes them harder to kill then the front line.

Full build syndra + ignite and rest of team could not burst a full item twitch down with soraka behind him going heal, ult, locket, redemption. syndra alone could only get through 2500-3000 hp but with soraka behind him we needed 4k+ burst damage in 2 secs to burst through the shields and heals.

ThefrostyvikingSep 13, 20172 votes

What i am saying, is that the assassin is inherently useless as long as his enemies knows he's coming to them.

Surprise attacks are only surprising if you don't know about them, or when they are ready to catch them. For even if they know that an assassin is coming what can they do exactly when someone else is currently swinging a weapon at their faces? If however that someone is missing then the people in question can just wait for the dagger carrying fellow to enter the building and nail him to the wall with crossbow bolts, medieval style.

That's why i am saying that in a teamfight or a skirmish the assassin isnt fit to take the lead role, their role is instead as a followup to others.

Lets say that in a teamfight your tanks hops into the enemy team and naturally they begin to react to it, then you playing as a assasin can jump into the mess from the side. You´ll of course immediately go for the marksman (in this meta at least,or as long as the mage isn't too fed) and thus start whatever combo you have.

Then enemy Lulu decides that´s quite enough bullying her poor pug maw.

Thus she gives him 2 barriers, 1 heal and slows you, ensuring that the kill fails while you are forced to run and the poor kog tries to get his bearing back, they might even look to kill you then and there. Only when suddenly your tank that until then was forgotten once again moves in and forces the kog to once again panic.

This is a possible scenario that could really go anyhwere from then, but it illustrates teamwork as a point, instead of the assassin going first or just blatantly running in from where everyone can see the assassin wait for the mess to start then jumps from the side and ensures that the enemy backlines goes into confusing letting the tank catch their breath.

A small amount of coordination or coincidence like that makes a huge difference, and if it happens that the enemy lulu doesn't have exhaust and already used one or two important spells on someone else? The assassin might actually kill the kog. Of course a lot of things could happen but as a example of a possible and not too implausible situation i believe it to be adequate.

woodvsmurphSep 14, 20171 votes

Yes, adc's not mispositioning shouldn't die to 1 assassin diving them. But if you combo an assassin and a bruiser diving at the same time, the support alone should not be enough to save them - especially if they execute a nice flank attack to dodge out on much of that frontline peeling. Yet in many cases, the support is entirely enough to save their adc and win what is essentially a 2v2 vs 2 solo laners as bot lane duo. This shouldn't happen at pretty much ANY point in the game. Maybe when sup has 6 items lvl 18 - but no point before that.

Sure adc's generally don't win the 1v1, but you never get a 1v1 unless they are fed. And every botlane lately is either around 10/1/3 or 1/6/2 depending on if they won lane or not.

Thus they can win the 1v1 even though they teamfight. Which only makes it harder for the enemy team because: with 2.5-3 damage items vs the 2-2.5 everyone else has built (because crit aa items are laughably cheap and only effective on a few champs other than adc's), the bruisers/tanks either don't have enough armor and have 0 mr items to deal with enemy team or they have effective mr and 0 armor items to deal with enemy team. This means in defending against sieges, teamfighting, and pushing, they either have to leave if the enemy adc shows up or force an immediate engage - no time to effectively force the enemy to misposition; by the time you forced that, you would have lost your hp bar twice over. In almost no match is any other class regularly so fed as to be able to force such a scenario. If the enemy has very little cc, sure it's not horrible and you can punish the adc, but otherwise, there is literally no way to kill the adc till like the very end of a fight. Which is the case most of the time.

Consider this - there are champs meant to peel and champs meant to dive. The ones who like to peel more tend to be more tanky. This can include champs like malphite who dive the enemy team and basically disrupt their dps. They aren't looking to kill the enemy; they want to maximize their team's dps while minimizing the enemy's via forcing the enemy to attack them (the tank). Thus the dps spent killing them (the tank) needs around 1.5-3x as much time to kill the first target as it takes for the tank's teammates to kill an enemy squishy. Thus by the time the tank would be nearing death, they can kite out because the enemy carry is dead, the enemy tank/bruiser is halfway dead, and their carries are still full hp. This works - obviously not exactly like I say, but this is a textbook/idealization example.

But what about the other class? The class of champs meant to dive and delete enemy carries? In seasons past - 2+ damage dealers (bruisers, assassins, mages, fighters) diving and focusing down 1 enemy carry generally kill that carry when executed properly - even with enemy having decent hard cc. Because the hard cc saves the carry from the first attacker (although they get off some decent damage), but then there is little left to stop the second one. Yet in today's matches, both diving champs get chunked harder before reaching the adc, get stun chained for longer, and have lower burst and dps because of all the changes to the game nerfing their durability and burst and the changes buffing adc survivability and enhancing or leaving their dps untouched. These champs either need to be able to 1-shot, or they aren't allowed to do their job properly - even if they played the laning phase better than their opponents. You have a bad bot lane; that outweighs having an above average toplane AND midlane even though logically 2 better carries SHOULD outweigh ONE better carry if the 2 execute properly in a teamfight. It's not that they are failing to execute properly in most cases; they just literally are not allowed to execute their job no matter what. Entire classes are not ALLOWED to do their job because of hard cc chaining, nerfed damage and durability to their class, and increased damage and dps of adc's.

Theoretical/textbook examples: Talon executed a nice flank and his jungler kha follows up almost immediately - jumping the enemy adc and INITIALLY bypassing the enemy team's cc. Lulu pops ult and shield on her adc - saving them from being bursted by the 2 man combo. She poly's kha since he still has dps, and her team turns to stun lock the talon. Adc is 1/4 hp. Though she has no healing items yet, ardent and other items buff her sustain and she dps the talon down in 2 sec since he's stunlocked and unable to do anything. Her team focuses kha with their damage and forces him to run away and wait for another opportunity. Seeing the opportunity, the team 5v3 pursues the rest of the enemy team since kha has no way back into the fight except a long walk around terrain. The frontline is over 3/4 hp because the enemy adc is so far behind and they are tanky peelers - not squishier bruisers and fighters meant to dive the enemy backline and KILL the enemy adc. Oh, and their adc who almost died? 2/3 hp or better - even though doran's blade is her only lifesteal item atm.

Renekton outplayed a 2v1 camp of his lane and is 3/0/0 - not overly fed, but definitely ahead. Syndra also has a healthy, but moderate advantage over the enemy mid. Knowing the enemy bot duo has a combined 10/2/8 kda, they know they can't dance around looking for the perfect angle - I mean 1 aa took 15% of renekton's hp bar through thornmail and the enemy adc doesn't even have armor pen. Seeing the enemy adc step up to frontline, renek chances a flash engage. Flash, stun, combo as much as he can before being chain cc'd. Syndra follows up with ult. It nearly works - the adc is chunked to about 10%, flashes away and heals. Except now, there is no way to reengage on said adc, she sits behind her frontline and dps down the renekton before he and his team can kill anyone on the enemy frontline - all the while said enemy adc is healing back to full hp. Syndra tries to help - but she's got no burst left. Their adc? Targets the enemy with the most armor and hp of course - even though everyone tells him to focus the squishies or at least the tanks with less armor. He deals laughable damage - by the time renek is dead and syndra is forced to flash away and the jungler is half hp, they've killed 1 enemy tank. A 1 for 1 trade where the enemy team has 4 people at or near full hp and renekton and syndra's team are all half hp or lower except the adc. They then lose out on tower(s) and objectives; quite possibly baron and/or dragon. This only enhances the win of the enemy team and moves them ever closer to late game where even adc's admit they have hilariously more power than any other role.

ThefrostyvikingSep 14, 20171 votes

I understand where you are coming from however your argument is utterly useless from a balance standpoint.

Because the basis is that the marksman AND the support in question are fed which isn't a viable call, if we used this as a basis we might as well call any champ in the game OP and be done with it.

Please do not waste time with bias, naturally a fed champ on the other team is a pain in the ass but that does not justify you calling for the champ to be nerfed-

10,2,20 Yasuo Oneshot me, OMG SO OP nerf this shit plx!"

Is what you are essentially saying here.

And besides, i truly doubt the claim that a marksman can survive a kha6 and a Talon jumping in on the same time, they are both played exactly for the ability to delete carries, even under current circumstances.

And you claim someone can survive both of them at once if their damage actually lands? I have difficulties believing it.

However if you instead claimed that the supports like lulu and janna make it extremely difficult to gapclose ontop of stacking barriers that make it hard to kill the marksman then i will believe you for that much is true.

But a 1600 health Ashe surviving a joint sneak attack from a Talon and kha6? Don't joke around <-< Even if The Ashe has all the barriers a Janna can bring along with a knights vow she won't survive that.

And as for their roles.....marksmen and supports are the main lategame ones followed by mages and tanks.

Everyone else is below that with assassins at the rock bottom for lategame power.

And as we are in a tank meta with extremely potent CC it's only natural that marksmen are able to exhibit 120% of their usual power. Since no one get's past the tanks.

woodvsmurphSep 16, 20171 votes

This is not bias. This is not a waste of time. My examples were just that - THEORETICAL examples. Do I need to define theoretical for you so you can understand?

I have seen scenarios like this time and again. In high elo vods. In my own games. And climbing through the ranks. Either you are a marksman main, a shield support main, or just plain ignorant to argue otherwise.

I have seen a multitude of times where the support can negate gapclosers or interrupt combos. Combo this with giving shields and they delayed burst on assassins and weaker damage on mages via item nerfs and weaker damage on bruisers via adc's abuse their items and get all the damage removed from them - and you get not enough damage to finish them off in one combo before enemy cc and healing come into effect. Then the 3 crit item ardent censer buffed adc heals from 10%hp to 40% or more while deleting one of the diving enemies while they are cc chained. Add in some nice perma-shielding, more drain tanking, and in worst case scenarios flash/heal and the second one is killed while adc heals up to over half hp.

Marksmen and supports ARE the main lategame carries. They WEREN'T always and they weren't meant to be. A bruiser and a mage comboing an adc or enemy mage that gets too close to the frontline in a lategame fight? Insta-dead. Now? Lose 70%hp, drain tank to full, win fight because the enemy frontline engaged and blew all their damage w/o finishing off adc. I could list off many other examples, but you would just incorrectly ignore or claim they are invalid like you did before.

Riot has created a meta where 3 champs' whole role (top, mid, jg) is entirely reliant on playing defensively (resulting in long boring standoffs) and being nothing but a meat shield or peeler for their adc. None of those roles - aside from disengage tanks - gets to do their job properly or enjoy playing the game much beyond laning phase. Mages? Neutered. Carry junglers aside from kha? Neutered. Bruisers? Neutered. Beyond early mid game, none of them has a CHANCE of doing the job they were designed for and mostly adequately (sometimes more than adequately) fulfilled in seasons past. Rather than reward proactive play and give all roles their proper place, they are rewarding passive, defensive play and making every other role have to play exclusively around ONE role. If adc's get to be the ONE ROLE everyone has to play around late game fine. Then logically, early and mid game OTHER ROLES have to be THE EXCLUSIVE role you play around. Which is far from the case. If we were to make matters equal, then the first 18 min of the game, bruisers winning lane kill anyone and everyone in sight 2v3? They win - period. 5v5? Doesn't matter if you're an adc up 40 cs and 5 kills and you play shit as perfectly as you can - enemy team with the better bruiser wins the fight. Mid game? Enemy mage is winning? They win every fight - no contest. You get the jump on them for being too far forwards? They get a shield, live with 20%hp and blast you into oblivion. Wait 4 sec, then repeat that with the next person on your team. Sounds like a lot of fun huh? Sounds exactly like what happens right? Nope. So ditch the bullshit "adc's are lategame carry" as if they have always been THE EXCLUSIVE lategame carry (which is false) and that they only carry lategame (also false claim).

Champs are designed to have POWER CURVES - as in if you rate them weak average or strong - they don't get average or strong at all points in the game. Classes as well have power curves. Which should change throughout the game in rating - weak, average, or strong. Right now, adc's as a class (aside from the ones not disgustingly overtuned) consists of average/strong (early), average/strong (mid), strong (late). No other class (aside from heal/shield supports) has such a good rating right now. No other class has individual champs with the same power rating as the top adc's have right now. Anyone arguing otherwise either has 0 clue, or is a liar.

ThefrostyvikingSep 16, 20171 votes

I feel the responsibility to crack down on your example, why?

Because one would use examples to support one's argument, if the argument doesn't stand without the example then its a pointless one.

Which is exactly what i am saying here, the scenarios you thought up does not work unless the marksman is fed making them pointless.

Marksmen often getting fed because their jungler gave them kills? Or because they outplayed the enemy botlane? Riot will approve.

Just as they approve of anyone else getting fed that way.

And then you go and give me another statement :

I have seen a multitude of times where the support can negate gapclosers or interrupt combos. Combo this with giving shields and they delayed burst on assassins and weaker damage on mages via item nerfs and weaker damage on bruisers via adc's abuse their items and get all the damage removed from them - and you get not enough damage to finish them off in one combo before enemy cc and healing come into effect. Then the 3 crit item ardent censer buffed adc heals from 10%hp to 40% or more while deleting one of the diving enemies while they are cc chained. Add in some nice perma-shielding, more drain tanking, and in worst case scenarios flash/heal and the second one is killed while adc heals up to over half hp.

Yeah, that's what i was saying, if the support is ready to stop the assassin and said assassin or diver actually, has no help, then they deserve to die for they have misplayed. Supports are the ultimate assassin and dive counters, enhancer supports in particular.

Thinking that the assassin or diver should succeed in such a situation is a case of needing to check one's privilege again.

Why do enhancer supports exist? With all their barriers and heals? It is to prevent assassinations and sudden bursts of damage. Which is what counters assassins the most as mentioned.

Followed closely by CC train tanks, which are also heavily meta along with enhancer supports.....and people wonder why assassins are struggling?

Assassins and tanks will never be good at the same time, never, however divers and tanks can be which is what we got now actually.

But you truly expect that kinda scenario to work out and the marksman to die then you truly are biased, i suggest you consider that.

And mages neutred? According to leagueofgraps among the top 10 champions winrate wise we have 4 mages and not a single marksman!

Also, 3 supports and 3 tanks.

Tanks outscaled? Mages neutred? There is no statistical evidence to back your claims making it all sound even more ridiculous.

We have a single marksman in the top 20 for plati and above, and that is Twitch. The next one isn't until place nr 27 being tristana.

Interesting fact on that, Shyvana and Jarvan have better winrates than Tristana......

And you serisouly overstate the power of marksmen and supports, if they truly get caught out so badly as you suggest then they would die unless everyone piling on them is a tank.....and even then they would die with the wrong support for help.

No, fact are simple, in this current meta every single class is viable, however assassins are struggling because their main counters, CC tanks and enhancer supports are strong.

Mages are doing really well, even the best if we talk winrates,followed by supports then tanks-.

Don't give me some bullshit about marksmen being super dominant when there are absolutely no statistics to back it up :/

Even in diamond there are only 2 marksmen in the top 20, mages,supports and tanks are far more dominant even there.

Altho assassins also do well up there, kata and akali in particular.

woodvsmurphSep 19, 20171 votes

Adc's should do that if fed? They should be able to get buffed by a mere shield and maybe a lulu ult and 1v2 take down 2 fed enemies? Uhh, you are on cocaine. That's like arguing I should be able to play renekton, get a morg shield and if she q's the enemy adc, I solo the enemy adc and mid when they are both fed. Utterly ridiculous. Doesn't happen and shouldn't happen. You don't magically deserve to do more damage and tank more damage than any other class just because you are an adc. Use some logic here - or if you don't have the brains for it, then don't bother continuing the discussion.

Adc's aren't in the top 10 for winrate? No shit - cuz the vast majority of them are so damn good and played in so many roles that they fuck each other's winrate. Your argument is like looking at WWII and saying Germany wasn't as powerful as any of the allied nations because they lost the war. Again - utterly stupid and illogical. If you have adc on both teams, plus adc mid on one team and adc jungle (screw you ezreal) on the other team, then you have 4 adc's between the two teams. Logically half of them have to lose. So their winrates are GOING to be lower than their power would suggest. It's like noting that more ice cream is eaten in summer... and murder rate increases in summer - then claiming ice cream makes you more likely to murder someone. Causation and correlation are not the same thing my friend. Adc's not being in top 10 winrate doesn't mean adc's are weak or suck.

Every fucking statistic and more importantly - LOGIC point to marksmen being overpowered. Why aren't you seeing renekton spammed top? Cuz he can't do shit to enemy adc's due to the peeling - even if a mid or jg assassin or burst mage follows up instantly on his engage. So he can't kill the enemy carries (his job which he's supposed to excel at) mid game - much less glimpse them late game. And he can't tank nearly as much as enemy tanks - so peeling for his adc is a futile exercise. And that's just an example bruiser. Darius, etc. face the same issues - either build full tank and hope your adc kills the enemy tanks first, or don't pick said champ because you don't get to build any damage - those who do just die and have 0 chance to kill enemy backline or seriously threaten them.

Mage and tank items weren't nerfed? Uh... hello? Riot themselves SAID they were nerfing them and in return reducing cost of items. So technically the items are still same gold efficiency, but provide less stats. Thus less scaling into the late game. Thus NERFED. Lay off the weed or whatever you smoke. It is seriously damaging your brain cells.

ThefrostyvikingSep 19, 20171 votes

Adc's should do that if fed? They should be able to get buffed by a mere shield and maybe a lulu ult and 1v2 take down 2 fed enemies? Uhh, you are on cocaine. That's like arguing I should be able to play renekton, get a morg shield and if she q's the enemy adc, I solo the enemy adc and mid when they are both fed. Utterly ridiculous. Doesn't happen and shouldn't happen. You don't magically deserve to do more damage and tank more damage than any other class just because you are an adc. Use some logic here - or if you don't have the brains for it, then don't bother continuing the discussion.

And here we have the proof that you are completely irrational, you dont even recognize the existence of supports as a thing, you think they just drop a shield on the marksman and then cease to exist.....and you don't even realize what tanks do either, this is just......pitiful.

Who's the clueless one here? Supports don't exist and are irrelevant but because they use shields the marksman is too OP,i suggest you decide what you want to say here........because you make absolutely 0 sense.

Fact is, that supports exist, and they are very powerful, plenty of defensive abilities and most importantly, CC which is their main tool to give the marksman kills and protect them at the same time.

Not to mention, no marksman except Vayne and perhaps Draven could ever hope to take down two fed enemies even with a Lulu for help unless massively fed themselves.

And it's partially thanks to the supports in fact, that champions like Renekton and Darius struggle so much, because if they can't gapclose or get chainstunned in the middle of "work" long enough to get killed then they are effectively useless.

Oh and on that note, the other reason Divers and juggernatus and assassins suck so hard right now is because Tanks like Cho and Sejuani are about. Even if the supports sits with their tumb up their ass no slow moving heap like Darius ever get's past a even half decent tank.

Chainstuns on short CD rotation from a target that is extremely hard to kill. Even a extremely skilled diver or juggernaut main would find it hard to move in that situation. Of course they´ll fail to kill the marksman because they can't ever go anywhere near them.

All thanks to the tank.

Yet you insist on the support not even existing due to being a "barrier, heal and CC bot" as the average silver would say? You completely fail to recognize their contribution which is just sad.

And to top things of you don't even realize that tanks exist either, i am nearly speechless at this point.

And when did i say that not being in the top 10 of all champions = sucking hard, what i pointed out is that we got other champions with high playrates for their lanes there.

And i didn't say a word about mages and tanks not being nerfed, i said however, that they are doing very well.

Which is a absolute truth looking at win and playrates as well as banrates. they got nerfed to push them down from absolutely dominating everywhere but that doesn't mean that a -50 armor or a - 100 AP will result in them being garbage.

Marksmen generally perform well in meta's when the supports and front lines are strong, kog is the prime example of this. And we know that this meta is such a one because is certain beyond doubt supports and tanks are strong.

And logic is by definition, reason backed by facts, and the fact that you deliberately ignore so many things including even the very existence and effect of the entire support class is pointing to the fact that you are incapable of sound logic when it comes to league of legends.

The only sound argument you have presented is the fact that marksmen drag eachothers winrates down since you always have 2 of them, that much is actually true.

But what decides the winners between them? This is the core issue, if it is their own skill in say dodging and positioning and their teams then things are fine.

However if it depends on who uses which items or plays Twitch then we do actually have a problem, which is exactly where we are now.'

How do we know the states though? Because in a meta were skills and teams matter nearly all marksmen are viable but yet we sit at a select few.

This indicates that for one, Twitch is OP, and two, some items are OP.

This is proven by the fact that, Twitch despite not "abusing" the current item core for marksman still stands at the summit of them. And with the exceptions of kog,sivir and Xayah, any marksman not using their "core items" is considered useless and often have bad winrates.

But what makes kog, xayah and Sivir alright then? It's the fact that Kog just excels naturally in all teamfight meta's as he always has done, and Xayah and sivir are picked for their wavecler and safety.

Sivir also for her ultimate.

Thus reasoning states that we only have 1 OP marksman and a few abusing items that are OP.

And that the reason assassins, divers and juggernauts are bad isn't even related to the marksmen themselves.

You seem happy to use big words yet you ignore their very meaning even as you write, the fact that you grandly accuse me of lacking logic while completely ignoring anything inconvenient for your augments is beyond absurd.

Supports and tanks don't exist and dont do anything indeed.

woodvsmurphSep 20, 20171 votes

I don't recognize supports have cc? Really idiot? Cuz like if you read my examples, I explain cc interrupting combos or preventing them from doing more damage after their initial combo. Clearly you don't listen at all and further discussion is futile as I would teach more to a potato or grasshopper than I could to you. Therefore, I will not waste my time debunking all your other flawed claims about me being in error. Have a nice life.

ThefrostyvikingSep 20, 20171 votes

Quite sorry for that actually, got hung up on your first paragraph and skimmed through the rest not really paying attention.

I get quite tilted by statements that seem to imply that supports really don't exist and marksmen are all completely broken by themselves which seemed to be implied there, and i apologize for that.

But as i mentioned, any form of quick aggression champion such as assassins, divers and to a lesser extent, juggernauts all suffer under teamfights meta's, they always have.

It's only more noticeable now following the tank buffs and reworks, the support buffs and the new items and buffs to items as well as the marksmens buff to static shiv and death's dance, those 2 are probably the only really relevant ones.

Tanks got new tools, mainly more CC and durability, and supports got more of everything, both which serves to keep the marksman safe even under circumstances where they would have died before.

However that does not change the truth of some of my statements either.

The only marksman that is broken is twitch, and the only items that are definately broken are static shiv and deaths dance with a few being too strong perhaps. '

Your arguments about the state of mages, the state of assassins, the state of tanks and botlane weren't entirely wrong but you based them of the wrong things which leads to mistakes in the reasoning ahead.

The only thing mages struggle against currently is tanks, the fact that they struggle so much to properly damage then makes it hard to exert much influence. However a well played mage is still extremely powerful and worth playing as seen by their still high pick and good winrates relative to midlane.

And the fact that LCS fellows are still happily playing mages.

Assassins struggle because of the meta in total rather than any single part, there are 3 things that keep them from going strong but really only 1 of them should not be there.

However the Koreans and assassin mains have proven time and time again that a skilled assassin is just about the worst thing a marksman will ever see. For what good is a tank when the assassin has already finished their work before the tank can move to help? What good is a support when the damage dealt shredds right through all the barriers and kills the target before redemption arrives?

Talon. Katarina. Zed. Kha6 and Kassadin.

And tanks are the reason we have the current meta more than anything, they are the greatest reason divers and assassins struggle so hard since they punish anyone going near them with what feels like unending CC. By no means could we call them weak. But are they impossible to beat? No not really, an assassin getting a good flanker in can still wipe out the backline and then the tank is helpless.

So the only thing really wrong currently is the state of Twitch and the state of Static shiv and death's dance. Oh and AP itemization against tanks.

woodvsmurphSep 22, 20171 votes

Also... just look at the kog and janna towards the end of this vid - they literally 2v3 a jax, j4, and zil in the enemy team's base. This around master tier Korean level I believe.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/175942006

ThefrostyvikingSep 22, 20171 votes

Kog was really fed though, 6,2,.....2 i think?

That's pretty monstrous by Korean standards.

And j4 missed his knockup, zilean missed his stun and jax didn't manage to stun in time either for any of them to get any damage in.

Kog took like 3 hits from jax, 3 tower shots and blew barrier to survive even with Janna helping.

That literally all the damage he took, 2 auto attacks and W-AA from jax and 3 tower shots.

It's not hard to survive that by any margin when so dang fed with a janna helping, and he used barrier.

Had Orianna been there or had zil landed his stuns or had jarvan landed his knockup then i actually doubt that kog would have survived.

But instead they all missed everything besides Jax who did 3 auto attacks.

You're telling me it's weird that kog survived? I´d be surprised if he didnt.

Acheron16Sep 14, 20171 votes

{quoted}

The misconception that A HUGE AMOUNT of people has is that a Assassin or diver should be able to dive into the enemy team, do their combo and kill the marksman.

Even if the support is there.

Meaning they expect to be able to win 1v2.

That's just so much pure bullshit.

You don't kill a marksman by sending a lone assassin to try and jump past all their tanks, shield bots and magic plasma cannons, you send in a a tank to cause a mess, then when they are starting to focus a little on the tank the diver or assassin can go in.

I see so many people playing assassins jumping in 1v2 or 1v3 only to chunk the marksman but fail to kill them thanks to the lulu or Janna saving them then the assassin dies and starts crying that marksmen are OP and impossible to kill.

Misposition? They aren't mispositioning as long as they are inside the supports range and outside the rest of the enemy teams, if only the assassin gets ontop of the marksman but the support is there ready to prevent it then the assassin is.......quite frankly a dumbass for going in.

There is not going to be a discussion that assassins should win 1v2 when the enemies are ready, because they shouldn't.

And the only marksmen that win 1v1's in this game without being massively fed or having reached 3-4 items are and sometimes . This thanks to them possessing either/or/and mobility,CC,high speed and burst.

No other marksman can even hope to beat something like a or rushing them. And a actually beats any of them except the Vayne even lategame i think.

But i digress, marksmen do not win 1v1 in all but a few cases and specific match ups, and thinking that the support shouldnt be able to prevent the marksman dying in a 1v2 or a 2v3 when they both play well is kinda silly.

They are two classes meant to work with oneanother, their strength together is naturally higher, complaining about is like saying it's unfair that mages like can delete clustered teams. ( Not actually instagibb the tank but everyone around the tank)

Thank you for your posts.

An alarming number of players and bad assassins think that because they managed to get near the adc they deserve to instantly blow them up AND escape.

That's not how this game works.

ThefrostyvikingSep 14, 20172 votes

Yeah, for some reason people on the boards flip their tables the moment a marksman or two gets even slightly strong and they make it sound like the end of the world.

Then in reality there exists, math, statistics, and evidence to back up the fact that half their claims are utterly impossible.

Some guy responding to my comment even told me marksmen and supports deserve to be nerfed because they are OP when snowballing x)

He said it unfair that marksmen and their supports become so hard to kill when snowballing hard, gave some example of a in total 7,1,8 botlane being too difficult to kill.

As if this was a viable standpoint to balance anything from x)

We want marksmen to be the go to class for taking down those burly front liners

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