[Idea] Doran's Items Rework

Hyrum Graff·Jun 6, 2014·2 votes·95 views

##Context:

is getting a rework: it'll give 7 AD instead of 8, and 3% LS instead of 3 or 5 hp on hit.

The effect will be this: Blade will be weaker as a starting item, but will scale better into the mid-game.

What does this really mean? Before, Doran's blade was an early-game item because its stats scaled poorly with other stats. Now, Doran's Blade has been clarified as an item that is highly gold efficient but highly slow inefficient.

##My concern:

I don't know how this will affect the balance of power: we've just given adcs an early game item that has multiplicative scaling with stats they'll get later; how does this affect their power compared to other roles?

##My Proposed Solution:

Let's give other laners Doran's items that are slot inefficient, instead of items that simply scale terribly. That is, let's give the other Doran's items the same mid-game scaling.

Removed: ~~3 Mana Regen per 5 seconds.~~
Changed: Passive: Restores ~~4 mana~~ 1% of missing mana when you kill an enemy unit.

Removed: ~~6 Health Regen per 5 seconds.~~
Removed: ~~Passive: Unique: Blocks 8 damage from champion basic attacks.~~
Changed: 80 150 Health
New: Passive: Restores 1% of missing hp upon killing an enemy minion.

This is an idea in its infancy - I haven't thought out all of its implications - but it gives other roles the same scaling, and options in their item builds, while maintaining items that won't be super useful outside of lane.

I specified missing mana/hp, because I was concerned about lane bullies being able to zone their opponents off of farm while ignoring all harass. However, this change also shouldn't favor passive lanes too much, because in order to get the item's full benefit, you need to CS, which puts you in range of taking harass. Furthermore, it shouldn't be oppressive even on champs like Nasus, who are OK with taking a little harass since can heal it up - this is because, in order to get the full benefit of the items, you need to be at low hp/mana. If you go to CS at low HP, you're at risk of being all-inned; if you go to cs at low mana, you're going to run oom in an extended trade or all-in.

Additionally, it will open up alternate build paths. For example, a midlaner might build 3xDRing into Codex/Rod instead of the ubiquitous DRing into Chalice.

The only thing I can think of off the top of my head is that concerns me is champs like Ziggs having easy access to unlimited sustain with 2xRing and 1xShield, and being impossible to kill, zone, or run oom.

Cheers,
Hyrum Graff

######Thoughts?

10 Comments

MackleDogeJun 6, 20141 votes

The entire point of the change is that ADCs need some attention as they've been becoming less and less important since the middle of season 3. Making changes to improve the other lanes defeats the entire purpose....

Hyrum GraffJun 6, 20141 votes

OK, that's a fair point. However, I still think that consistency is important here.

If this imbalanced an adc's relative power budget, it should be pretty simple to do straight numbers nerfs/buffs to balance that out again.

What do you think of the concept, though?

MackleDogeJun 6, 20142 votes

First, evidently these item changes are the only help that ADCs are getting, and it's paired with nerfs to the two ADCs that currently actually matter in the game. I think it's been pretty evident that Riot is less than interested in giving ADCs a valid shot at being relevant in any manner prior to mid game at the earliest, which is why with the meta champions being what they are that ADCs are next to useless in the early game. I don't foresee nor do I really understand how these item changes are actually supposed to improve things for ADCs at all.

As far as the concept itself, again, I don't really like it and I think changes like this would be a slap to the face of those that want ADC to finally matter again. That being said, as far as the actual items are concerned both changes seem like direct nerfs to me, especially the Doran's shield change.

Doran's Ring: Main issue with me is that this punishes mid laners that like to roam and help other lanes. They don't get the mana regen on their way or the way back. They already have meaningful risk in losing CS, lane pressure, and turret damage, I don't think punishing them further for roams is healthy for gameplay choices. Second issues are the clear favor this shows to wave clear champions like Ziggs/Karthus over more damage/dueling based champions (who subsequently have weaker waveclear) such as LB/Nidalee/Ahri. (Also I'm kind of sick of everyone acting like Chalice is a bad thing.)

Doran's Shield: Okay, so they already nerfed this twice, changing it in this manner might make sense for certain top lane situations, but I think you may have overlooked how this change would interact with the Doran's Blade changes (tldr really really really bad for the DS buyer). To start with, it's a shield...with no defensive stats...what? You're spending how much gold for just 1% missing health from a CS? Why would you ever buy that? You might as well get cloth armor, boots, Doran's Blade (the LS would be stronger than the DS passive in all instance but next to no health), or even Ruby Crystal. Doran Shield is an item you build if you know you're going to get bullied and so you need some defense and a way to cope to stay in lane, changing it like this means it no longer fulfills that in any respect but when you are about to get dived and then as soon as they do dive you its useless again due to no defensive stats.

Hyrum GraffJun 6, 20141 votes

First, evidently these item changes are the only help that ADCs are getting, and it's paired with nerfs to the two ADCs that currently actually matter in the game. I think it's been pretty evident that Riot is less than interested in giving ADCs a valid shot at being relevant in any manner prior to mid game at the earliest, which is why with the meta champions being what they are that ADCs are next to useless in the early game. I don't foresee nor do I really understand how these item changes are actually supposed to improve things for ADCs at all.

I don't really feel like arguing about whether the items will help adcs or not. My general feeling is that ADCs will be even weaker in the super-early lane, but will get stronger sooner into the midgame. I guess we'll see when the changes hit live.

Riot is saying that Lucian and Twitch are in a good place. These itemization changes should make ALL adcs stronger, which will make luc and twitch OP. They're planning on keeping twitch and luc at the SAME power level as live, overall.

As far as the concept itself, again, I don't really like it and I think changes like this would be a slap to the face of those that want ADC to finally matter again. That being said, as far as the actual items are concerned both changes seem like direct nerfs to me, especially the Doran's shield change.

Again, I'm talking about the concept changes, not the numbers. We can buff adcs if need be.

Doran's Ring: Main issue with me is that this punishes mid laners that like to roam and help other lanes. They don't get the mana regen on their way or the way back. They already have meaningful risk in losing CS, lane pressure, and turret damage, I don't think punishing them further for roams is healthy for gameplay choices. Second issues are the clear favor this shows to wave clear champions like Ziggs/Karthus over more damage/dueling based champions (who subsequently have weaker waveclear) such as LB/Nidalee/Ahri. (Also I'm kind of sick of everyone acting like Chalice is a bad thing.)

That's a good point, about roamers and duelers. What if it also gave back mana for damage dealt to enemy champs?

Remember Morello's dev blog on design values? Specifically, meaningful choices. Chalice is unhealthy in the same way that vamp scepter was unhealthy: there's no choice involved, because chalice is the best on in every situation on every champ that uses mana.

Doran's Shield: Okay, so they already nerfed this twice, changing it in this manner might make sense for certain top lane situations, but I think you may have overlooked how this change would interact with the Doran's Blade changes (tldr really really really bad for the DS buyer). To start with, it's a shield...with no defensive stats...what? You're spending how much gold for just 1% missing health from a CS? Why would you ever buy that? You might as well get cloth armor, boots, Doran's Blade (the LS would be stronger than the DS passive in all instance but next to no health), or even Ruby Crystal. Doran Shield is an item you build if you know you're going to get bullied and so you need some defense and a way to cope to stay in lane, changing it like this means it no longer fulfills that in any respect but when you are about to get dived and then as soon as they do dive you its useless again due to no defensive stats.

What if it also gave defensive stats of some sort? Like, 10 armor/10 MR, or 150 hp instead of 80?

MackleDogeJun 6, 20141 votes

Riot is saying that Lucian and Twitch are in a good place. These itemization changes should make ALL adcs stronger, which will make luc and twitch OP. They're planning on keeping twitch and luc at the SAME power level as live, overall

Preemptive nerfing is bad. That's pretty much cut and dry. Nerfing them before you see how the items influence things means you don't get an accurate picture of how the items influence thing. Standard scientific procedure, limit the variable input.

Remember Morello's dev blog on design values? Specifically, meaningful choices. Chalice is unhealthy in the same way that vamp scepter was unhealthy: there's no choice involved, because chalice is the best on in every situation on every champ that uses mana

Which is why we see champions like Kayle rush Lichbane and Runaan's right? Which is why we've seen DFG Karthus in Challenger lately? Which is why LB is entirely viable if not stronger when you build DFG - Rabbadon's as opposed to rushing Athene's? Where are the Irelia tops with Chalice? Jax? All those ADCs that also have mana? Seriously man, this is blatantly untrue and there is absolutely no arguing that.

Everyone buys boots, boots too strong too? Guess we should nerf trinkets since everyone gets those. Don't bm me with obvious hyperbole and sensationalism, this isn't Fox News.

That's a good point, about roamers and duelers. What if it also gave back mana for damage dealt to enemy champs?

I'm not sure that solves the problem, because then you have an issue with champions like Ziggs and Orianna who have a bunch of waveclear and really easy harass game while they do it. I can't say I have a good idea that would fix the abuse cases if you keep the pct missing mana on it.

What if it also gave defensive stats of some sort? Like, 10 armor/10 MR, or 150 hp instead of 80?

I think if you replaced the standard health regen with the pct missing health, then adjusted the AA passive to a lower number (blocks 4?) you could throw on a small chunk of health. This would allow you to be a bit tankier to start to deal with the harass you'll be getting as the weaker laner and provides you some defense in the lane without providing you with too much. Plus it doesn't give you the free sustain, it still encourages you to fight for the CS in order to keep yourself decently up in health. The defensive stats just give you the tools to have a chance at that.

Hyrum GraffJun 6, 20141 votes

Preemptive nerfing is bad. That's pretty much cut and dry. Nerfing them before you see how the items influence things means you don't get an accurate picture of how the items influence thing. Standard scientific procedure, limit the variable input.

You have a point here. However, remember that they also playtest these things internally, so they're not just shooting in the dark. Furthermore, say they did do just the item changes, and were right about twitch/luc being OP. Intentionally leaving champs in an OP state isn't good, either.

Which is why we see champions like Kayle rush Lichbane and Runaan's right? Which is why we've seen DFG Karthus in Challenger lately? Which is why LB is entirely viable if not stronger when you build DFG - Rabbadon's as opposed to rushing Athene's? Where are the Irelia tops with Chalice? Jax? All those ADCs that also have mana? Seriously man, this is blatantly untrue and there is absolutely no arguing that.

Sorry, I misspoke. I meant to say, every AP mid who uses mana.

Also, I'm not talking about athenes, just chalice. There are a good many champs who do well going chalice -> other AP items -> athenes later.

I'll go another level, too; you're right that not every champ has to rush it - like karthus, because of his innate mana sustain - but it's still fairly ubiquitous.

In any matchup where a mana-based AP mid doesn't rush chalice against an opponent who does, if the opponent is smart they'll just continually shove the wave and run the non-chalice mid OOM.

Everyone buys boots, boots too strong too? Guess we should nerf trinkets since everyone gets those. Don't bm me with obvious hyperbole and sensationalism, this isn't Fox News.

That's not a fair comparison and you know it. A better comparison would be "Everyone buys sorcs" and you have an argument there; I also think that boots could use some attention in that area.

I'm not sure that solves the problem, because then you have an issue with champions like Ziggs and Orianna who have a bunch of waveclear and really easy harass game while they do it. I can't say I have a good idea that would fix the abuse cases if you keep the pct missing mana on it.

Well, that's why I made it % missing mana (my original idea was % mana). I think you're overestimating how much mana you get back with 1% missing mana. Ziggs starts off the game with 300 mana; if he's completely oom, he's only getting 3 mana back (less than the current doran's passive). By level 5, he's up to 500 mana - 5 mana back, if he's completely oom.

If he's completely oom, ziggs is totally vulnerable to ganks, and can't trade effectively (with only one ability's worth of mana left).

I think if you replaced the standard health regen with the pct missing health, then adjusted the AA passive to a lower number (blocks 4?) you could throw on a small chunk of health. This would allow you to be a bit tankier to start to deal with the harass you'll be getting as the weaker laner and provides you some defense in the lane without providing you with too much. Plus it doesn't give you the free sustain, it still encourages you to fight for the CS in order to keep yourself decently up in health. The defensive stats just give you the tools to have a chance at that.

I like having it give you more hp than the other doran's items as well, both because I feel like that's its job - making you tankier - and because it synergizes well with the passive.

MackleDogeJun 6, 20141 votes

Intentionally leaving champs in an OP state isn't good, either

pls... Rengar? Kassadin for ages? Various instances of champions being far too strong and none of them were ever preemptively nerfed. I can't argue about whether or not they would be OP or how badly they would be OP because we don't yet have specifics about the actual statistic changes on items, so maybe we can pick up this portion once we get that. I'll gladly eat my socks if the numbers come out and it's super obvious, but until them I'm not convinced the item changes they are making are even going to have a significant difference, let alone warrant nerfing the two ADCs that can actually still influence a game.

In any matchup where a mana-based AP mid doesn't rush chalice against an opponent who does, if the opponent is smart they'll just continually shove the wave and run the non-chalice mid OOM.

This entirely ignores any manner of jungler intervention or distribution of blue buff. I don't think it's justified to say an item is problematic when there are clear workarounds and counters to it. Just picking out one portion of a situation and ignoring the other portions makes it extremely easy to say that items have issues. For whatever reason, people seem to have an issue with an item being used frequently, but only for certain items. BT in every single ADC build ever? No problem. Chalice build on most AP mids? Everyone flips their shit. Just doesn't make sense to me, especially since the lifesteal aspect of BT allows for the constant laning that the issue of Chalice apparently is. It just annoys me that a bunch of other items get a free pass in respect to "meaningful choice" while one or two in particular don't, doesn't make sense.

Well, that's why I made it % missing mana

That's why I'm saying that adding in mana on champion hit doesn't necessarily solve it. Especially since with a passive like 1%, it feels more like mastery small impact as opposed to an item impact, which would most likely leave it feeling largely irrelevant to the player buying it. Again, I don't have any good ideas for changes to Doran's Ring, wish I did though, because I really like discussing theoretical item changes.

Hyrum GraffJun 6, 20141 votes

pls... Rengar? Kassadin for ages?

Just because it happened in the past, doesn't mean we should do it again in the future.

BT in every single ADC build ever? No problem.

Your argument Your argument is invalid

This entirely ignores any manner of jungler intervention or distribution of blue buff. I don't think it's justified to say an item is problematic when there are clear workarounds and counters to it. Just picking out one portion of a situation and ignoring the other portions makes it extremely easy to say that items have issues.

At least in the LCS - pretty much the only place you can rely on mid getting blue - people ALSO build chalice.

I mean, the counter to sustain on adcs is burst/all-in lanes. And look what botlane looks like right now - very little variety (at the competitive level). Just because there's clear counterplay to something, doesn't mean that it's healthy. The important design value that is being violated is meaningful choices, not counterplay

That's why I'm saying that adding in mana on champion hit doesn't necessarily solve it. Especially since with a passive like 1%, it feels more like mastery small impact as opposed to an item impact, which would most likely leave it feeling largely irrelevant to the player buying it. Again, I don't have any good ideas for changes to Doran's Ring, wish I did though, because I really like discussing theoretical item changes.

By that argument, Doran's current passive feels more like a mastery than an item. Plus, all the numbers I'm tossing around are theoretical. If it needs to be 2% of missing mana to feel meaningful, so be it. I'm more concerned with the theory behind "% missing mana restored on cs" than I am with the implementation specifics.

MackleDogeJun 6, 20141 votes

We've reached the dreaded reply nest limit. Huzzah -_-

Just because

If they are actually keeping an eye on it and testing it (and actually trying to get a valid result by not making other adjustments) then they should be able to quickly adjust what they seem to think the problem will be. Trying to fix a problem before you even have a problem is just as bad as trying to keep using a broken system.

invalid

That's assuming these item changes actually change the build paths, which there isn't any proof of. How can I possibly debate against theoretical future with absolutely no precedent or factual basis?

meaningful choices

This design policy is garbage to begin with considering the manner in which balance and design has been approached so far. Where is the meaningful choice for Skarner mid lane? Constantly seeing Ziggs, LB, Kayle isn't meaningful choice in and of itself. It's absurd to demand "meaningful choice" from a single item but not others and even more absurd when their isn't any support for alternative choices in the mid lane to begin with. Have you ever considered the the issue isn't Chalice? Maybe the problem is the overly safe, waveclear, mage types that are dominating mid lane.

Doran's

I get it's theoretical, I was specifically referring to the instance of it being 1pct as an example of player feel. Because of the variation in champion mana pool it would be difficult to find a balanced and equitable % missing point that doesn't skew the power of that sort of passive on waveclear champions over others and that would only be compounded by an addition of mana on hit mechanic.

Hyrum GraffJun 7, 20141 votes

they should be able to quickly adjust what they seem to think the problem will be.

People don't like lots of changes - after a change comes, they want stability again. Sometimes it's better to rip the band-aid off quickly. Just ask Eden about the recent succession of Jungle changes.

invalid

My point was that one reason they are making these changes is because bloodthirster is the dominant pick, and that's making a certain class of adcs (those with ad ratios) MUCH stronger than the others - and now they're trying to fix that. To point to bloodthirster as an example of something riot is OK as leaving as the only build path, is kind of counter to your argument, whether or not the changes are the nerf to BT they're intended to be.

Maybe the problem is the overly safe, waveclear, mage types that are dominating mid lane.

Maybe that's because of chalice, the same way marksmen with AD ratios and burst supports dominate botlane because of the current state of BT.

Mana pool size differences

You have a point here, but you also have to keep in mind, those champs with larger mana pools are usually more mana hungry as well. I don't think that mana pool size differences are going to be that important.

Taking skarner mid

Meaningful Choices doesn't mean being able to do anything on any champ, it means having options. You can take skarner jg or top, but mid/adc/supp probably aren't such a good idea. That doesn't mean Skarner lacks meaninful choices, it just means he's only viable in a few positions. You can take him mid, in the same way you can build a bloodthirster on leblanc. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.