ZED CHANGES ARE TARGETED AT FRUSTRATION, NOT POWER

Hyrum Graff · 2016-05-22T00:38:14.113Z

Specifically, they are designed to force Zed to be more interactive in lane. #Q: better trading, worse harass >Double Q does more damage but single Q does less Imagine you're Xerath, laning vs Zed. He throws out his shadow, hits you with a shuriken, and spams /laugh, because he's standing 2 teemos outside your max Q range. Repeats every 15-20 seconds until you have to base. Now if he wants to do more than tickle, he has to walk 7 teemos closer to you, in range of all of your abilities. A straight nerf to Q damage wouldn't work. If you nerf his numbers, his pattern stays exactly the same, he's just weaker. The buff part of this change is what actually changes his pattern; but obviously you can't just buff Zed. #R: Less free damage >R has a smaller AD ratio but more damage amp This one's pretty simple. If Zed ults and you outplay him and dodge all his abilities, you deserve to live. With a smaller ratio for just pressing R, Zed actually needs to hit his shit if he wants to kill you.

LankPantsMay 22, 20169 votes

(harass and shove/roam)

Harass maybe, but you buffed his shove and roam. Last I checked Minions don't particularly attempt to avoid double shurikens. Zed needs less AD to W-E-Q a wave and obliterate it now since his double Q deals even more damage to creeps.

AMYS GRAVEMay 22, 20167 votes

or lose his passive procing on minions....

Nausicäa May 22, 201610 votes

{quoted}

Nice analysis and yeah, reducing frustration's definitely a big goal for these changes. We are looking to hit power to some degree as well though, laning power in particular (harass and shove/roam), which translates into lower late game power too on average.

Awesome, meanwhile Fizz has a higher winrate, has less counterplay and is 10x more frustrating but never gets nerfed. Classic Riot caving in to forum cry babies that cant deal with a 50% winrate champion.

I dont even play Zed very often, but i can tell you, id rather play against a Zed than a Fizz or a Leblanc any day. The fact that these other assassins are allowed to exist in utterly ridiculous and anti fun states while you only make changes to Zed is absurd.

How exactly is Leblanc's broken damage and poke burst gameplay fun? As if she wasnt safe enough she has a get out of jail free passive. How exactly is Fizz 2 gap closer + cc + invulnerability fair?

LankPantsMay 22, 201625 votes

Zed has an 80+% banrate. That's enough of a reason for action against him regardless of how you personally feel.

NuparuMay 22, 201611 votes

I feel as if Zed's banrate skyrocketed because people are more scared to fight him than the actuality that fighting him ended in a stomp every time.

The QSS change really inspired fear that he'd be busted; so the common response is to immediately ban before he gets a chance to show if he's strong or not.

LankPantsMay 22, 201615 votes

Zed was busted and had a 60ish% ban rate before the QSS change.

And yes, people are afraid to fight Zed, because everytime they have to it's a miserable experience, even before the QQS changes. Zed earned his banrate by being one of the most bat-shit insane champs in the game and these PBE changes won't fix that. He'll continue to be banned because he'll continue to be hellish to play against.

BoulderoxMay 22, 20163 votes

It's the CHANCE, he CAN become the worst thing under the sun, and many players just don't want to risk a zed getting fed. But it comes down the the fact if he can't kill, he can split push with little problem.

Battlecast SonaMay 22, 20163 votes

they took a character with low counterplay and made it lower. Of course he's banned all the time. I don't even ban him because I personally am worried about dying to him, I ban him because I'm concerned about someone not respecting him. Once Zed gets fed there's basically nothing you can do unless you're an AP champ that can make Zhonya's in the game's current state.

SmitemuffinMay 25, 20162 votes

Most of us (like myself) ban him for 2 reasons:

He's in every game. We're sick of seeing him. More than HALF of my games mid last season were against a Zed
He's no fun to play against because he has zero counterplay. 1600 range, he can half-hp you at level 3 even if you have armor runes, perfect farming under turret with no skill, high base speed, no spells that stop his movement, 2 blinks and an absurdly powerful all-in

Hyrum GraffMay 22, 201651 votes

{quoted}

Awesome, meanwhile Fizz has a higher winrate, has less counterplay and is 10x more frustrating but never gets nerfed. Classic Riot caving in to forum cry babies that cant deal with a 50% winrate champion.

I dont even play Zed very often, but i can tell you, id rather play against a Zed than a Fizz or a Leblanc any day. The fact that these other assassins are allowed to exist in utterly ridiculous and anti fun states while you only make changes to Zed is absurd.

How exactly is Leblanc's broken damage and poke burst gameplay fun? As if she wasnt safe enough she has a get out of jail free passive. How exactly is Fizz 2 gap closer + cc + invulnerability fair?

Dude.

Zed is frustrating to play against. So are those other champions. That doesn't mean they shouldn't fix Zed.

Nausicäa May 22, 20167 votes

I honestly dont care if they nerf Zed. Whats upsetting is the reason behind it. Like i said literally just caving in to forum circle jerks, while other assassins that are also broken but dont have a boards target on their back get away with laughably broken kits.

If im mid and i see im laning against a Leblanc or Fizz i literally dont even feel like playing anymore. If its a Zed i groan but i know that once i have Zhonya's im fine. Meanwhile Leblanc and Fizz get one kill and start instant killing you at will and theres literally shit you can do about it due to infinite mobility and CC.

And at Riot HQ: "Champions should pay for their mobility in some way" Oh yes having CC and instant kill burst damage sure is paying for your mobility.

Nameless VoiceMay 22, 201629 votes

More likely it has something to do with his almost 90% pick/ban rate. That's not just the people on the boards who are upset about Zed. The entire community hates him.

ChoaruMay 22, 20168 votes

I like zed .-.

Spaceman5pffMay 22, 20161 votes

I am one of the first people to call for zed nerfs. I have spent so long saying he is op.

Thing is.. i love zed. He is so goddamn cool! He demonstrates champion mastery so much better than virtually anybody else bar the likes of azir or draven. When properly balanced he creates a very interactive play pattern on both ends, with clearly defined mobility that allows massive outplay / misplay potential.

Zed is fucking awesome. His balance, however, has not been.

ÇhåryzårdMay 22, 20163 votes

{quoted}

I am one of the first people to call for zed nerfs. I have spent so long saying he is op.

Thing is.. i love zed. He is so goddamn cool! He demonstrates champion mastery so much better than virtually anybody else bar the likes of azir or draven. When properly balanced he creates a very interactive play pattern on both ends, with clearly defined mobility that allows massive outplay / misplay potential.

Zed is fucking awesome. His balance, however, has not been.

Zed is great and he looks fun but he has not been balanced. Laning against him is awful, especially when he can spam and you now have to ration your mana because you have no mana regen or mana pots. He's free to throw everything at you, you have to try and farm without using too much mana and dodging his stuff.

Even if I stay under turret, he flash ults in, does shit tons of damage, and is out of there before I can hit him with anything. I usually get ignited too, After that, he is a monster.

He looks great but he's terrible to lane against

RocketRelmMay 23, 201610 votes

Let us clarify then. The entire community minus the Zed Players hates him.

MAGA MAN X 2020May 22, 20167 votes

I can dodge Fizz's ult, I can juke LB's cc, I can't dodge Zed's ult.

JorenciceMay 22, 20161 votes

Well if you have any cc Just use it behind you where he always appears stun him and walk away.

Boom ult dodged.

DrCyanideMay 22, 20168 votes

I feel like you've never played Viktor (1.5 seconds until stun). Or Xerath (0.5 second stun). Or Ziggs (good luck getting him to bounce away from you).

Quite frankly, that tactic only works for a fraction of the mid lane roster.

GayFluffyUnicornMay 22, 20164 votes

I feel like u don't understand you aren't supposed to win against zed as viktor or zigg? You want to nerf a champ into oblivion for being good at what he does?

Ariel the CruelMay 22, 201612 votes

It's Riot's stated policy that lane/game shouldn't be decided by champ select. While some champions will naturally have an advantage over others, if the lane match-up is summarized as "you can't win", there is a problem.

(in before Melee top laners complaining about ranged champions.)

bobsenbobMay 22, 20166 votes

no, just want to have a semblance of counterplay other than always stay out of range

AMYS GRAVEMay 22, 20168 votes

(harass and shove/roam)

I hope you realize this is a buff to zed's shove/roam pattern because he is guaranteed to hit both shurikens on minions and the double shuriken does more damage overall now... Then he gets to be bot lane with the ADC who cant QSS his ult anymore instead of with the mage who could zhonyas it.

This is a buff to the least interactive part of his kit, his waveclear.

FoxstepMay 22, 20163 votes

{quoted}

(harass and shove/roam)

I hope you realize this is a buff to zed's shove/roam pattern because he is guaranteed to hit both shurikens on minions and the double shuriken does more damage overall now... Then he gets to be bot lane with the ADC who cant QSS his ult anymore instead of with the mage who could zhonyas it.

This is a buff to the least interactive part of his kit, his waveclear.

A good Zed won't just put his shadow into the wave to shove it in unless he wants to roam. If he does that he is easily gankable and you can ping a lot. He is meant to be strong early and meant to roam a lot.

Krys StarMay 22, 20165 votes

Not to derail the thread too much, but will Fizz also be looked into? Zed has his Shadows cd increased to give enemies better windows of opportunities, and now he's getting changes to make him less frustrating and awful to deal with. Fizz is kind of in the same boat as Zed, although much worse in that his Playful/Trickster does everything a player could dream of. High burst damage, aoe, slow, pops projectiles, most damage mitigated (minus a few exceptions), mobility, low cooldown as well having too much synergy with Hourglass.

MandaariMay 22, 20167 votes

Still think you should try nerfing the range on his Q if you haven't already. What's frustrating to me isn't just the damage he can do, but it feels like he does it from beyond "assassin range". IMO an assassin shouldn't be doing anything to me from that far away.

PiVoRxMay 22, 20162 votes

Can you explain why you wont dumpster zed or kindred like you dumpstered Yi? You go really carefully with Zed and Kind changes but YI got straight forward 3 random nerfs that get him trashed. Any comment on that?

JorenciceMay 22, 20164 votes

Yi is a melee auto attacker. Those are EXTREMELY hard to balance.

Either yi is 1 shotting everyone or gwtting 1 shot.

Sad TyrantMay 22, 20163 votes

Have you guys ever thought to make his shuriken a collision based skill shot that stops after a certain of targets hit, for reference like Veigar's Q, but like 5 instead of 2 targets? or have if further reduce in damage so his poke over minions is less impactful?

just wondering into the thought processes of you guys a bit more. i genuinely want to know what considerations for changes you are doing to zed

JJI744May 22, 20163 votes

Question, have you looked at the case where Zed decides to go farm mode? Cause I think the 25% increase in damage on multiple hits more than makes up for the loss of base damage on Q, and while players may be a little tricky to hit with multiple Qs, minions are not. I'm a tad concerned these changes lead to Zed just power-shoving with multiple Q hits, which tends to be a bit frustrating. (See also, GP farming with Barrels)

ZED CHANGES ARE TARGETED AT FRUSTRATION, NOT POWER

213 Comments

More from Gameplay

More by Hyrum Graff