Can we all agree that towers are in a pretty good spot right now?

Hyrum Graff·Jun 10, 2016·194 votes·6,426 views

They feel strong but it's still possible to dive if you pull it off well or only take 1 shot.
They're tanky enough that they don't go down with a single wave, but if you constantly roam you are going to lose your tower.
Losing a tower feels impactful but isn't a game winner/loser all on its own.

If we agree here, this is a really useful point for future reference -- it means if towers are ever too weak or strong in the future, we can say, "Riot, please bring towers back to how they were in 6.11"

138 Comments

The DeckownerJun 10, 201689 votes

For some reason it felt like tier 1 and 2 towers are fine but inhib and nexus tower felt weak as fuck.

Hyrum GraffJun 10, 201610 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nQYlPETE,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-06-10T19:28:37.505+0000)

For some reason it felt like tier 1 and 2 towers are fine but inhib and nexus tower felt weak as fuck.

To me it seems like outer and inhib turrets are in a perfect spot, while inner and nexus are a little weak but I'm not sure it's an issue with the turrets themselves. Talked about this more in a different comment.

The DeckownerJun 10, 20167 votes

I think nexus towers are ok to be weak against champions, hell an enviornmental unit shouldn't stop you from winning the game when you are already in the ememy base. But it does need some resistance against minions, because it seems 1 wave of super minion can completely destroy a nexus tower, it makes teams who are behind very hard to come back because they can never have a 5v5 fight outside of their base without a wave of superminions potentially destroying the base.

Hyrum GraffJun 10, 201613 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nQYlPETE,comment-id=000300000001,timestamp=2016-06-10T21:42:28.491+0000)

I think nexus towers are ok to be weak against champions, hell an enviornmental unit shouldn't stop you from winning the game when you are already in the ememy base. But it does need some resistance against minions, because it seems 1 wave of super minion can completely destroy a nexus tower, it makes teams who are behind very hard to come back because they can never have a 5v5 fight outside of their base without a wave of superminions potentially destroying the base.

I think I'd like to see the nexus towers changed so that instead of hitting 1 target they have a beam that hits all targets in its change (not champions, unless they draw aggro -- drawing aggro adds a beam that hits you without stopping the exiting beams), then tone down the damage of each beam by a bit. The goals for this change are: undefended supers will take towers just as easily, diving is harder, seiging is easier but is more about damaging the tower than preventing the enemy team from clearing your supers while your minion wave does the work.

Nexus turrets will have an easier time clearing huge waves but a harder time actually killing the supers themselves -- and a harder time killing the waves if there's more supers around (remember supers buff nearby minion resists).

That means as a defender you have a clear objective now: kill the supers. As an aggressor, it means seiging is a little easier, because the towers do less damage total so if you take aggro briefly it doesn't matter as much (although you can't aggro juggle any more, so diving is harder).

DeynaTaggerungJun 10, 20163 votes

They feel weak because by the time you get to them you're already really strong. Towers should become less of a threat in the late game. Even then diving one could still provide a distinct advantage to the defending team, they just have to be there to defend it. If the enemy tank and dps can get to an undefended tower in the mid-late game it should die for the poor map control.

Sexual VelKozJun 12, 20162 votes

Please stop, this is exactly why the game has its terrible balancing. Turrets are only strong when you can't tank them. Other than that, they are useless garbage. A Laser turret does 100 damage every .5 seconds after 3 seconds of hitting an enemy unit. Turrets are subsceptible to true damage, and penetration damage now and that is absurd. Turrets need a buff, they need to be fearsome, they should be something you need to think about diving, not just say, Ok going to dive, ally triple kill. And get out alive, minion's do more damage than the turrets do, and that right there is also a problem.

JasiwelJun 11, 20164 votes

They need to either have more beef against minions or deal more damage to minions. Winning a team fight at Baron and realizing your Nexus towers collapsed from a wave of Super Minions feels really bad.

Swiftstrike4Jun 10, 201614 votes

The inner towers feel very weak, while the out towers are in a good spot.

I feel like the inner towers are much more difficult to defend due to their positioning on the map and the damage they deal.

If the team that is slightly down tries to defend the tower they usually lose it or it results in a lot of death.

The inhibitor towers are fine. You can defend them if your whole team is there and you have OK wave clear. The nexus towers though go down really fast it seems in even games. Maybe it is the dragon buffs or the damage out put of champions at the later point in the game but I feel like those towers in particular need to have some resistances or deal a bit more damage.

Now obviously in uneven games they should go appear to go down faster because the game is lopsided, but it when the game is even that towers should be defendable.

GibberwattJun 10, 20167 votes

the beams seem to be a bit meh in terms of strength. Maybe increase the number of beams in the Nexus/Inhib towers, to, like, five. Then they could clear minions faster, but keep diving easy (the beams wouldn't target the same dude)

Hyrum GraffJun 10, 20162 votes

Pretty much agree with all of this. Despite some criticism though, I think they're in a pretty good spot overall.

{quoted}

I feel like the inner towers are much more difficult to defend due to their positioning on the map and the damage they deal.

I think the positioning is the big deal here. Particularly, it's really hard to rotate between them without being caught out or taking a route that's so long that the enemy is going to take it down while you try to get there.

I'm not sure if that's a good or a bad thing. If you overbuff T2 towers then stalling at T2 becomes the new stalling at inhibs.

The nexus towers though go down really fast it seems in even games. Maybe it is the dragon buffs or the damage out put of champions at the later point in the game but I feel like those towers in particular need to have some resistances or deal a bit more damage.

I feel like that's more a result of supers being OP.

It's a bit of a conundrum, though. Part of having an inhib down means if you don't defend that lane you're gonna lose a nexus turret. But that means if there's also enemy champions on your nexus turrets, they go down super fast. Buffing nexus turrets helps with the latter, at the cost to the former.

Would it be weird if nexus turrets got stronger when there's enemy champions nearby?

CrazedPorcupineJun 10, 20163 votes

Personally I think the one buff to inhibitor/nexus towers is that they keep their ramped up damage when they swap targets. Right now, their damage resets on each minion making it really easy to swarm the tower with large enough waves to poke the tower down because the tower can't handle large waves.

EMetaJun 10, 201613 votes

Mostly. I'd like to see inhib turrets scale higher over time. Their first 3 seconds of damage is fine, but champs that can sit under them for 6 seconds? That shouldn't work.

See All EvilJun 10, 20163 votes

I agree, I think it's weird that even non tanks can just sit there and take that beam and not really be bothered... And a fed tank can just /dance under one it seems.

ErockandrollJun 10, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=See All Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nQYlPETE,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-06-10T19:22:45.956+0000)

I agree, I think it's weird that even non tanks can just sit there and take that beam and not really be bothered... And a fed tank can just /dance under one it seems.

The way I see it, that late in the game, turret damage is designed to supplement your own. Especially with Inhibitor turrets which offer a slow, and an Armor shred. (At least, I think that's still the case.)

Make the turrets easier to defend, but you have to defend them.

NichtHurzJun 10, 20163 votes

Haha, the slow on them was removed several patches ago and they don't have an armor shred ;)

ThePartyLeaderJun 10, 20169 votes

Did riot move them?

BIue MonkJun 11, 20166 votes

Towers are not tanky enough, and they deal ridiculously low damage aswell, Early is okay but I'd expect like +200% bonus dmg and tankiness @20 mins for some towers.

ZhireJun 11, 20164 votes

In my opinion, towers are still a bit on the weak side, but definitely stronger. I say this because the introduction of the earth dragon really can impact how fast you take a tower. Not to mention red buff and armor/magic penetration actually affects towers now. Combining with good attack speed champions, I still see towers being gone in a single wave of minion.

Jhin UItd JFKJun 11, 20164 votes

Lol remember earlier in the season where there were 1,000 threads about paper towers?

And now this is on the top of the Hot page. Well done boards [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

nice tableJun 10, 20163 votes

as someone who abuses early game dives i like that the towers are weak but generally speaking i would say they are too weak.

Hyrum GraffJun 10, 20162 votes

{quoted}

as someone who abuses early game dives i like that the towers are weak but generally speaking i would say they are too weak.

As someone who gets dove more than he dives, I don't like it when towers are weak, but I don't really feel like they're weak right now. If someone dives me pre-6 and takes 3 tower shots, they're dead unless they were 100% hp and I didn't land anything on them, in which case I deserve to die.

WyvernEggJun 11, 20163 votes

I think the inhibitor towers need a small buff in attack at the start of their attack. just a small one

BârdJun 12, 20163 votes

Balance-wise, yes.

They need one change, though.

That bug where the laser noise goes off without targets? fuck that.

See All EvilJun 10, 20162 votes

I don't know about you, but at least for me it seems towers in ARAM are really stupid. REALLY REALLY STUPID. For SR? Towers seem fine.

The Yetii RiderJun 10, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=See All Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nQYlPETE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-06-10T19:16:53.110+0000)

I don't know about you, but at least for me it seems towers in ARAM are really stupid. REALLY REALLY STUPID. For SR? Towers seem fine.

The ARAM outer turrets have like 209 base damage.

RobbieFry13Jun 10, 20162 votes

I still feel they should swap the inner and outer turrets. The outer turrets deal increasing damage and have no limit on range for the final shot, making them significantly harder to escape. The inner turrets can barely slow down an super minion so any tank buffed Alistar Malphite Maokai Garen Darius can stand under a turret on the platform surrounded by enemy minions and crush it and walk on to the next one with out taking significant damage. Maybe that is the idea to keep games shorter, but I think it is silly the first two turrets in each lane take 20-30 minutes to bring down, then you lose 1 team battle and the game is over bc the Tank and AD carry that are the only ones to survive can wipe out the rest of the turrets before you and your team can revive.

MacanimusJun 10, 20162 votes

I definitely agree with inner towers and nexus towers are a bit under powered. I think they should do a % health or increased damage based on health instead of what they are now. That way tanks can still tank more shots but not just sit there for a minute.

Shadow GilgameshJun 10, 20162 votes

Feels good not to get cheese dived at level 2 by someone like elise juggling turret agro with the laner. damage staying ramped was a good ass change

zlumpyJun 10, 20162 votes

The tower AI is too easy for an opponent to abuse imo. much rather have a tower that targets an enemy that aplayer under the tower has targeted other wise people keep dipping in and out of the range making it effectively useless unless there is a hard cc champ under it.

MunchCrunchLunchJun 10, 20162 votes

Nope

Jeanne fan clubJun 11, 20162 votes

its possible to half health a turret 4 minutes in with only 1-2 waves (bot lane) I think that turrets should have more health, especially nexus and inhib turrets. The damage is fine, I like how the damage is at the moment, I just think that turrets should have more health, and the closer the turret is to the nexus the more health it should have. ATM there is no chance for comebacks if you fall ~7 kills behind the other team. As a plat player I can say that ~95% of all games are decided by which team is ahead 8 minutes in. Giving turrets closer to the nexus more health allows better turtleing and easier assess to farm under turret. There just isn't any way to come back from a losing lane.

Sure that there shouldn't be an EASY way to come back from losing a lane, but it is pretty frustrating when one player on your team ruins the whole game by feeding 4 kills to a jax top as maokai in the first 8 minutes. Why should the other lanes be punished for one potatoes mistake?. If turrets had more HP then there would be more time for that potato to farm under turret and gain more gold, lessening the chance of them being usless the whole game.

ArthimetesJun 11, 20162 votes

The true damage reduction no doubt helped with that, except it feels a little wonky because it's no longer actually TRUE damage.

YOLO420SWAGSCOPEJun 11, 20162 votes

they need more armor pen for nexus and inhib turrets, im tired of darius and any other champ just running down and healing off the lasors

OneMustFallJun 11, 20162 votes

I definitely think turrets are still too weak. It's way too easy to dive people. I also agree that super minions do way too much damage to inhibitor & nexus turrets. Either tone down the damage they do or decrease the length super minions spawn because it becomes a nightmare just to hold the base let alone fight a team fight with OP minions in your base.

PunkkeeJun 11, 20162 votes

still feel that using an untargetable ability shouldn't make the tower lose agro

Captain AishiJun 11, 20162 votes

for the sake of being able to watch competitive play again, i just wish towers were invulnerable for like the first 5 minutes of the game so we just might see less towertrading with no laning in the early game

TWITCHTV ERONATEJun 11, 20162 votes

Towers might be fine, it's death timers that let them fall like 4 per ace It's really annoying that you made a mistake and it costs you the game

GastonBarnaclesJun 11, 20162 votes

No way. I was a 5 item, 40cdr tank Gragas and a 6 item Udyr tower dived me and I only took half of his hp before he killed me under the tower. It was absurd how that half tank bastard took zero damage from the tower.

coeurloyalJun 10, 20161 votes

I think in general they're in a great spot. That's really dependent on the meta and strength of the neutral buffs though, so I'm not sure that you'll be able to use it effectively as a point of reference.

Hyrum GraffJun 10, 20163 votes

{quoted}

I think in general they're in a great spot. That's really dependent on the meta and strength of the neutral buffs though, so I'm not sure that you'll be able to use it effectively as a point of reference.

You can't use it as a point of reference in terms of "revert their stats to X", but in terms of "I want towers to feel like that" it's pretty good I think.

Fenikkusu1Jun 10, 20162 votes

Lane towers feel good, but the base towers beams feel very lacking despite supposedly being a stronger defensive system. The ramping on the beam is way to long, and its very easy to just reset the agro and damage. One good change that I don't think would make them overbearing is have the starting damage when you first get hit by the beam go up a bit.

BloodyTomponJun 11, 20161 votes

There's only one thing I would change. I dislike them giving gold and exp. Don't get me wrong, I can see why they do, but I still dislike it and think it would be better without it.

Hyrum GraffJun 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

There's only one thing I would change. I dislike them giving gold and exp. Don't get me wrong, I can see why they do, but I still dislike it and think it would be better without it.

I agree the primary thing you get from towers should be map control. If you removed the other things from them, you'd definitely need to add some other mechanic to make up for it, but this could be worth it.

ThevongJun 11, 20161 votes

lost 8 games in a row, what is life

Hyrum GraffJun 11, 20164 votes

{quoted}

lost 8 games in a row, what is life

I'm good at Kat I swear.

Trias000Jun 12, 20161 votes

Inhibitor turrets still have wrong statistics (4.00 attack speed and 160+ damage, which can't be right).

Hyrum GraffJun 12, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Inhibitor turrets still have wrong statistics (4.00 attack speed and 160+ damage, which can't be right).

Not sure about the damage but the attack speed sounds about right to me. That would mean the beam ticks once every .25 seconds.

Trias000Jun 13, 20161 votes

But not for 160+ damage

Hyrum GraffJun 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

But not for 160+ damage

As in, they do less damage than that or more?

Trias000Jun 17, 20162 votes

Less. I wrote about it some time ago:

{quoted}

The tooltip (at the start of the game) for an inhibitor turret says it deals 170 damage with 4 attack speed, ignoring 75% armor. That would mean 680 damage per second. If you have 46 armor (so 11.5 effectively), it would be 680*89.7% = 610 dps. And obviously that grows as the game progresses. I tested it on Hecarim with said 46 armor and 822 health. He should die to an inhibitor turret in 1.34s. Instead, it takes more than twice as much - around 3.5s. Which means the actual dps is only 822/3.5s = 234, or 261 without armor. So, with 4 attacks per second, it only deals 65 damage (or its attack speed is actually about 1.5, not 4), as opposed to 170 mentioned in its stats.