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@Riot - Tell Me How this is Balanced

Cerbearus··7 votes·2,393 views

Playing Dominion for fun between ranked games and run into this. A 5-man premade all challenger team vs (all solo) 3 unrankeds, a gold, and a plat.

The system isn't supposed to match 5-man premades with all solo players in the first place. How it put FIVE CHALLENGER players vs us doesn't make any sense to me. Is your matchmaking system just that broken? Or is all of their Dominion MMR just that much lower than their SR MMR?

Needless to say the game was over in 13 minutes in a pretty hilarious stomp.

35 Comments

RiotRiot Whist5 votes

Dominion has a much smaller pool of players queued up to work with.

Sorry this happened, I don't know if there would be a solution to this for Dominion though.

Polaritie6 votes

Sure there is, stop ignoring the mode and actually support it. Give it ranked (there is absolutely no excuse at this point), promote it some. The mode has more or less been abandoned since release, it's no surprise it has a tiny pool of players and all the corresponding issues (long queues, terrible matchmaking...)

Cerbearus1 votes

Well the lack of ranked I think is because of limited server resources in some regions. Only a few servers would be able to handle it and they want to be "fair" to everyone.

(Yet they can add stuff like TB, draft Dom, TT and SR and the rotating game modes just fine)

Polaritie2 votes

It doesn't take any more resources for a game of dominion than a game of SR, and it's not like you're going to see a 10% population spike by switching it on (or if you do, that's a good problem to have so who cares?). It should have net zero impact on servers.

Cerbearus1 votes

That was Riot's answer (Notice my backhanded comment).

There are like 20 queues already, how does 1 more change anything?

Cerbearus1 votes

Counted 16 queues + whatever rotating game mode they have. If they can have all these random useless queues why no ranked dominion?

Hyrum Graff2 votes

I think they should change Draft Dominion into ranked. Voila. Problem solved.

RiotRiot Whist6 votes

In my opinion, the problem with dominion is not a lack of a ranked queue or promotion (it was promoted like crazy before). It's a lack of interest. I personally don't play Dominion, it lacks the excitement of ups and downs Classic can provide and doesn't offer the same frantic fun that ARAM provides. While I can only speak for myself, I feel this is probably the reason most players do not bother with it (not because queue times are longer, queue times got long because players lost interest)

Currently I feel it's at this weird middle ground area where it's just flat.

I do not mean to talk poorly of Dominion, I fully understand we have players who still enjoy it, this is just my opinion on the matter :)

Again this is not Riot's opinion, it is my personal opinion.

Hyrum Graff4 votes

Number of sentences: 7

Number of times Whist makes clear that this is only his opinion: 8

Well played ;)

Although I wish that it were not necessary for you to put so many disclaimers in your posts when you want to state your opinion.

RiotRiot Whist12 votes

Can never be too careful 'round here...in my opinion.

Thryale1 votes

yes, but after a while it can start to sound disenginuine or lose it's meaning due to over use.

Not to mention it disrupts the thought flow when reading, and can start to aggravate the readers due to over use as they have to constantly refocus on what you were trying to say after being interrupted by your disclaimers.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

To be fair, a lot of them weren't disclaimers, I just counted any "I statement." I didn't feel it lost its flow, and honestly when you're saying something as potentially controversial as "Dominion isn't as good as SR," it's probably a good thing that Whist opted to be on the safe side. :P

Thryale2 votes

I understand. I was more or less giving a generalistic statement about opinion disclaimers rather than condemning him for his specific usage of them in the given scenario. :)

Hellioning4 votes

To be fair, most people don't even know dominion is a thing, especially new players. SR is the map that everything is balanced upon. TT and Dominion have their own map specific balances, but that was so long after they were released it was probably too little too late. I mean, maybe it's true that Dominion is simply a terrible game mode that not many people enjoy, but a bunch of people are still annoyed at 'we'll activate Dominion for ranked once the meta gets set up!' followed by a couple of years of silence.

That sort of leaves a bad taste in people's mouths.

Mansana1 votes

I agree with you. I would like to add that SR Ranked was added with no problem when the game came out and the meta still keeps on shifting. So question to Riot is why delay Ranked Dominion if eventaully the meta will shift as well? There is no point in delaying it cause eventually Riot's balancing team will make map specific champ nerfs, item nerfs, etc.

Mansana1 votes

Do you think if there was ranked Dominion people would try and learn the map? Because some people might find SR really hard to climb up and think 'hey finally another map I can try and soloque in'. This goes for TT solo as well. Like sure there still has to be balancing issues especially since I don't quite see a meta in Dominion as of now, but that's the reason why it fell off. There was no reason to learn or enjoy Dominion. For example something Nintendo learned was that the community loves games because of the ranked experience, that's why they are improving online play for SSB4. Another example would be COD. Do you think people will still play the game if there was no ranked experience? Do you think people would still play LoL if Ranked 5x5 SR was removed? Like sure you can make the counter argument that a certain percentage of people don't enjoy or even play ranked, but that's besides the point.

Morello even said Dominion Ranked would be shipped 3 YEARS AGO:

I explained why it's not shipping with it in other threads.

We're shipping ranked in Dominion, just not right on launch.

This thread is now about chocolate.

All I want to say is that as of now I know Riot isn't spending there resources on Dominion because of other bigger projects and priorities such as chocolate (no offense Morello; love you <3),but something needs to be done or else this game mode is just a waste of space.

exec32 votes

It was promoted at launch and then neglected severely only a short time after. It received no balancing for years leaving a hyper imbalanced game (Dom players suffered Kass for years before SR players realized how broken he was, in general Dom players discover OP champs before SR players do) and there are indeed issues with the mode that need working on (like how old TT needed a rework) but nothing has happened (I believe WolfAxe expressed a desire to redo Dominion but resources needed to free up first, probably referring to SR's VU).

A combination of Riot completely ignoring the mode (based on recent Morello comments it sounds like it's 100% intentional) and core issues that need to be addressed (storm buff is useless, only 1 truly contestable point, a lack of high points from secondary objectives and how you just kind of win at the end with no build up) has what lead to Dominions dire state. Dominion could be a great alternate mode if you guys would just let it be.

Malah1 votes

It was promoted initially and then a few months later all promotion and support was dropped for it. Morello has claimed about ten different reasons for doing so once we forced him to actually talk about it publicly (some of which contradict each other).

ARAM/URF are brain-dead fun. There's nothing wrong with that, but the problem is when the only time Riot DOES talk about the mode, they try selling Dominion as the same thing despite actually having much higher peaks than SR due to the constant PvP action and objective contests. Sure, it's got a different flavor than SR, but if the map was actually marketed to the proper demographic there would be plenty of people interested.

I mean, there's obviously some kind of population to tap into given that almost every other MOBA released recently has a form of Domination game play.

Cerbearus1 votes

Why do you guys not support Dominion? Is it because it has a small playerbase? Well it has a small playerbase because you don't support it... The minor map-specific champion changes were nice but you could do so much more :/

Hyrum Graff4 votes

First, those players may not have played dominion much, so their Dominion MMR (separate from their MMR on the rift) may be much lower than their current rank.

Second, consider the size of the summoner pool that matchmaking is pulling from here. It's pretty unlikely that there's going to be another challenger premade queuing at the same time. Would it have been more fair if they had gotten matched with a bronze premade?

Third, as unbalanced as it initially seems, statistically, everyone on your team except Cass has some stat that's comparable to them:

  • Braum, Akali, and you have the same number of normal wins as Lucian, Cho, and Fiora.
  • Varus is Gold, to Blitz's Plat
  • Cass/nid is obviously unbalanced

Finally, let's imagine matchmaking trying to make a balanced team. To make up the team facing the challengers, it's going to take anyone who's plat or better. But how many plats are actually in que? I'd guess not many, since anyone who took the time to get to plat clearing likes SR, and only plays Dominion occasionally.

Continued in the reply to this post.

Hyrum Graff3 votes

Let's say one plat ques up every 2 minutes. Then, you won't find your 5th player for 8 minutes. At the 8 min mark (each # represents a plat player in que):

  1. Has been waiting for 8 minutes.
  2. Has been waiting for 6 minutes.
  3. Has been waiting for 4 minutes.
  4. Has been waiting for 2 minutes.
  5. Finds a group immediately.

What if player 1 isn't willing to stay for 8 minutes and leaves partway through the que? Now you need to wait another 2 minutes to find another plat, so the que times look like this:

  1. [Quit] Would have been waiting for 10 minutes.
  2. Has been waiting for 8 minutes.
  3. Has been waiting for 6 minutes.
  4. Has been waiting for 4 minutes.
  5. Has been waiting for 2 minutes.
  6. Finds a group immediately.

Do you see the issue here? If (player 1) isn't willing to wait for 8 minutes, then someone else (player 2) needs to be willing to do that wait (and if they leave, player 3 needs to be willing, etc). So no matter what, someone needs to be willing to wait for 8 minutes.

*The same thing applies to finding someone willing to wait 6 minutes, 4 minutes, and 2 minutes, but even worse. * Here's why:

What if player 2 is willing to wait 8 minutes, but player 3 isn't willing to wait 6 minutes? Now you need to find another person, so everyone's que times go up again! Now they look like this. (also, the same thing applies if person 4 doesn't want to wait for 4 minutes, or person 5 isn't willing to wait for 2 minutes)

  1. [Quit] Would have been waiting for 12 minutes.
  2. Has been waiting for 10 minutes.
  3. [Quit] Would have been waiting for 8 minutes.
  4. Has been waiting for 6 minutes.
  5. Has been waiting for 4 minutes.
  6. Has been waiting for 2 minutes.
  7. Finds a group immediately.

OK, that's all well and good, but what if person 2, who was willing to wait 8 minutes, isn't willing to wait 10 minutes? Well...

  1. [Quit] Would have been waiting for 14 minutes.
  2. [Quit] Would have been waiting for 12 minutes.
  3. [Quit] Would have been waiting for 10 minutes.
  4. Has been waiting for 8 minutes.
  5. Has been waiting for 6 minutes.
  6. Has been waiting for 4 minutes.
  7. Has been waiting for 2 minutes.
  8. Finds a group immediately.

Now, there's a reason why I'm keeping the players who have quit in the listing: The group of Challengers has been waiting in que this whole time. So all of the challengers have to be willing to wait 14 minutes in this scenario. Your game didn't even take 14 minutes to complete! What's worse, 13 minutes of hilarious roflstomping, and then on to the next thing, or 14 minutes of que times doing nothing, followed by what might be a more even match, but is probably still 13 minutes of roflstomping?

Now, presumably they are willing to wait a long time, because they knew what they were getting themselves into. However, there are still a ton of factors I haven't considered:

  • What if the players waiting 4 or 2 minutes respectively, didn't want to tough it out?
  • When I say players “are willing to wait,” that actually means, “will sit in que for that long without hitting the little red X. Because after spending 7 minutes in que, you start to wonder whether matchmaking has forgotten about you, and might hit that button even if you would have been willing to wait, if you had known a match was coming.
  • Players aren't found every two minutes, on the dot. 3 players might be found immediately, and then 2 more, 8 minutes later. In that case, 3 players wait for 8 minutes and 2 have no que time.

Anyway, that's my little spiel. I didn't actually end up doing much math, because I didn't feel like doing such complex calculations, and I felt like my point was well-proved without them, but I can and will do them if you want to give me numbers for the following:

  • Number of seconds between each plat+ player entering que (in this example, 120).
  • Chance of a player being willing to wait X number of seconds, where X is in increments of the previous number (in this example, 120/240/360/480 seconds, etc).
  • Cutoff after which practically nobody is willing to wait
Combat Chuck3 votes

I know that can be frustrating.. But realistically, with how few people play Dominion I don't find it that surprising. And honestly I don't think Riot monitors Dominion all that closely, since it's probably the lest popular matchmade mode.

GROMMI2 votes

It's Dominion.

Dominion has lesser players, and I believe a different MMR system.

The only thing 'challenger' about them in Dominion is their micro - Undoubtedly better. But, as it is a different mode, I don't see why you brought this to the forums.

Cerbearus1 votes

I know they have different MMR but the game shouldn't match a premade 5 with 5 solo players anyway. Them being all challenger just adds to the fact the game was bull.

Dvolt4 votes

I think it's kinda unfair to make an exaggeration like that, honestly. You have a disparity of 3 Divisions on their team, Diamond, Platinum, and Challenger. Sure, they used to be in Challenger, but your players had a decent rating in Season 3 as well.

Cerbearus1 votes

Define "decent". If we were to give points for each Tier (0 for unranked, 1 for Bronze, 2 for Silver, 3 for Gold, 4 for Plat, 5 for Dia, and 6 for Challenger) it would look like this:

Last season's Ranks: 10-30

This season's Ranks: 7-26

Trust me there is a HUGE disparity between the top 100 players in the region and the bottom 40%.

Dvolt1 votes

Well, in my mind at least, decent is going to be in middle-high silver, though I know some bad gold players. But there's the big problem. They had 2 people who had made it BACK into challenger, while the other's were either close to it (See, two person in Diamond), or in Platinum 1. I feel that it's only fair to say that while the top 100 players are significantly better than your average bronze player, it's also unfair to say that simply because they were challenger last season, they would still be as good.

While I'll admit this situation is unfair, remember that your MMR score doesn't translate across game modes. I may be a decent ranked 5v5 player, but my normal Treeline rating is eh at best, simply because I don't play it often. As far as I am aware, it's pretty darn hard to get into Challenger if you don't play this game a lot, and it's even harder if you have to invest yourself in other game modes. It's honestly absurd to expect their rating to accurately reflect how good your enemies were as a player, because they don't really play Dominion as much.

Though, this really hits the real problem. Simply because I'm a decent player in 5v5, I should be expected to do well in Twisted Treeline? Sure, they have the same champion pool, but the environment is so different that I'd probably flounder. Probably.

Cosmic Warper1 votes

Because rito matchmaking and servers. Their servers are really screwed at the moment in several ways. The duct tape isn't working anymore.

JackYAqua1 votes

Pish, pawsh. Duct tape fixes everything, and if it doesn't, you didn't use enough of it.

JackYAqua1 votes

Ouch. +1

Dvolt1 votes

Because on any other day, Dominion players would complain that they have to spend 20 minutes+ before getting into a game.

Pick your poison, I guess.

Cerbearus1 votes

True... I spend on average 5-10 mins and I'm not even high ranked in Dominion...

the Anarchit3cht1 votes

You know the banner they have during the loading screen is from LAST season? I get paired with plenty of "gold" players even during SR normals even though I'm bronze. When I check their actual placement, a majority of them are unplaced or bronze just like I am.

Cerbearus1 votes

Well if you look at my attached pictures you will see their current placement is: Plat 1, two Diamond 1s, and two Challengers.

Believe me there is a huge difference between the top 100 players on the server and the bottom 40%.

Malah1 votes

First off, if you're playing Dominion then SR ranks are totally worthless. Plat/Diamond players come on the mode all the time and, while they may be able to play their champion half-decent, their stat setup is totally backwards (Runes/Masteries/Items) and they don't actually understand where the game focus is (objectives and map control).

And, yeah, looking at the setups there that's a low MMR match. Neither team looks by item build and summoners to have any real idea of what's going on. Ghost on anything but about three champions is an immediate indicator that something is wrong.

FYI, SR unranked player here. Matched with Pl/Di/Ch SR/TT ranked players.

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