Lack of Hybrid Champions

Cerbearus·May 6, 2014·42 votes·6,129 views

So Riot effectively killed hybrid builds when they nerfed the crap out of Gunblade back when Dominion came out. I would like to see a resurgence of hybrid builds.

Hybrid was a lot of fun as you didn't do a ton of one type of damage but a little of both, so enemies had to itemize accordingly.

Two ways to fix this, Buff AP champion's AD ratios and AD champions AP ratios, or buff the items themselves (Guinsoo, Gunblade) and maybe add some more.

I would also like to see a champion built with hybrid builds in mind (much like how Jax was). It would be a refreshing addition to the game outside of the current "Is he AD or AP?". Adding a third choice would be really cool and theorycrafting itemization for him would be quite fun.

44 Comments

ThalesMay 6, 201420 votes

Hybrid doesn't actually work in the game, at least in any way like how it has been implemented in the past. If you just have it as damage scaling from both AD and AP, there's little functional difference between that and pure AD or pure AP. Mixed damage is not a substantial addition to gameplay, as anyone who's played against Mundo or Shyvana can testify. If a champ has damage scaling on both AD and AP, people will usually find whichever scales better and stack the crap out of that.

The other challenge is that both AD and AP are heavily reliant on multiplicative scalings to reach their full effect. Penetrations, Deathcap passive, attack speed, etc. A champion encouraged to build both AP and AD won't be able to use those to full effects. That's another reason why even on hybridish champs like Kayle, Jax, and Akali, people build almost exclusively one stat. Kayle is probably the best example. Hybrid Kayle has always been mediocre, but pure AD Kayle used to be solid. After Riot slightly buffed her AP ratios, AD Kayle died, but pure AP Kayle saw a resurgence. We went directly from one to the other, with no hybrid stage in between.

It might be possible to make a hybrid champion where the AD and the AP serve different but complementary roles. A champion with AP ratios on utility scaling, who uses those ratios to stay in range while using their AD to damage their victim, perhaps. Realistically, such a champion would probably end up being built heavily in only one direction, but at least there's a choice. As it has been previously used, hybrid builds add little to the game, and require major finagling of game systems to make work. A third choice is no good unless it's in some way clearly distinguishing itself from the other two, and hybrid does not pass that test.

KrimeMay 6, 20146 votes

Great info here Thales :) I really like your point on multiplicative scaling. What if there existed a dual-scaling item, but tuned down enough so that it was unattractive to a strictly AD or AP champ? I.E. this theoretical item:

Void Whisperer! (Void Staff + Last Whisper)

+35AP

+20AD

+17% Magic Pen

+17% Armor Pen

2300g

ThalesMay 6, 20141 votes

Why is this interesting? As Shinkada asks below, what would just boosting their raw damage add? Sure, you can force them into building hybrid, but altering the itemization path Jax or Kayle follows to max out their damage isn't improving the game.

KrimeMay 6, 201410 votes

(disclaimer- long post b/c I’m very passionate about this subject, there’s a tldr at the bottom :)

As the creator of this thread mentions theorycrafting itemization, which is a big one, and it would also allow you to diversify your build mid-game to counter your opponent’s defensive stats (i.e. he stacks armor, you go from pure ad to hybrid).

From a game-theoretic point of view, making the hybrid path feasible is interesting because it increases the branching factor of the game (number of possibilities at each node of the game tree) for each player.

The reason I switched to lol after playing dota for years was because I knew that lol was more interesting because the items actually interacted with the hero’s abilities. Coming from dota this was a novel concept and very profound in the implications that it has for the subsequent possible strategies available to players.

For example, in dota one can buy items that interact with their champ's base stats to increase things like attack damage, attack speed, mana ... but no item can increase how hard your 'Q' hits or buff the damage on your ulti.

For me, a connoisseur of strategy, this is essentially the difference between going to color from monochrome. In dota, each champ is born with a major stat (Int, Str, or Dex), and you must play to your major stat. Lol, seemed much more fluid at the time. It was cool to see that you could build Twisted Fate AD and wreck house, or sit back, stack AP and throw cards. You could build hybrid pentakill jax, or ap assassin jax...etc. As a longtime magic player, I saw each champ as a deck archetype and the items as cards to change out. Therefore, the more possible viable cards, the more interesting the format. Sorry for the analogy, my reasoning was basically ‘there were many more possibilities in the new game, so it is deeper and more interesting’.

And since then, it seems like even though there are champs who have technically have duel ratios, for the majority of champs, one ratio is usually hands-down superior over the other, it feels more dota-esq, like you’re born with a major stat that’s the only good way to play the champ.

TLDR; Making the hybrid path feasible is interesting because it increases the theorycrafting and number of possible strategies that a player or team can bring to the game.

ShinkadaMay 6, 20141 votes

I'd question exactly what the 'strategy' here is. The enemy is building armor, so you switch to AP... That's not really strategy, it'd just be sort of common sense if it was numerically feasible.

You want strategy? I was the first person I saw to rush Banner of Command on reworked Heimer. I did it from his first week. The boost to turret damage was nice, but that's not why I did it; I did it so I could buff a siege minion then drop three turrets while the tower focused the siege and 100-0 towers. I did it so I could ult-turret Dragon the second I got it and use aggro-swapping to make him never get an attack off and die in about 10 seconds.

Stuff like that is far more strategically interesting than "he bought a sunfire and now I buy a blasting wand to completely nullify his purchase in the most obvious, non-interactive way possible."

ThalesMay 6, 20143 votes

I agree.

However, I'm not criticizing hybrid as a concept, I'm criticizing it as it is implemented. On current champions, there's not a radical difference in playstyle between AP, AD, and hybrid on champions with both types of ratios. It's usually just more damage through generally similar patterns.

To use your MTG analogy, I feel like on most "hybrid" champs, the difference between AP and AD is just the difference between 1R: ~ deals four damage to target player; and 1B: Target player loses three life. Sure, they're different, but they're not really different, and there's generally going to be one that's just better, without much advantage to mixing.

I think hybrid paths are actually part of the problem, not part of the solution. In games like League, it's usually better to specialize than be a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none. So if a champion has two paths with very different playstyles (which is a good thing!) the path midway between is likely just going to be inadequate at doing either.

Look at the champions with distinctive AP and AD builds, not ones who work pretty similarly with either. Tristana, Nidalee, and (sorry) Sion. AP Trist is a divey burst caster assassin who plays very differently than the safe, long-range AD carry Tristana. AD bruiser Nidalee is potent and durable split-pusher, rather than a long-range siege mage. Sion is in a pretty bad state, but AP and AD Sion hardly even use each other's abilities! With the exception of Sion, who's just a train-wreck, Riot supports these alternate builds completely. They may not be equally strong (practically by definition, otherwise they wouldn't be alternate), but you can run any of them and do well. Bruiser Nid used to be the standard, actually.

Yet for all of those, the champions who fit your stated goal of offering a range of choices on a single champion, hybrid doesn't work. Hybrid Trist fails to burst people and so dies, and can't take towers so she can't contribute to the team. Hybrid Sion doesn't get to use his steroids to full effect, and can't burst waves or champs. Hybrid Nid has weak spears and is too slow to take towers. These champs can be really good at a number of different things — but not in the same game.

I agree about what you want. I just don't think hybrid is the way to go to get there.

Don't worry about long posts. I appreciate a detailed debate. I wrote a 1200 word post (had to split it in three, actually, thanks to character limits) the other day in a debate on player behavior!

Aedan DrakeheartMay 7, 20141 votes

It sounds to me as if you're saying that by forgoing a particular stat in favor of focusing on another, you reduce the overall effectiveness of that character. To this end, I do not agree.

Characters that are clearly designed (and I do emphasize clearly) to make use of both AP and AD (Akali & Jax, off the top of my head) actually do make use of having a moderate amount of both stats. Both of these characters have passives built into their Kits that capitalize on having both stats, and to stunt them on either one, to me, seems too much like putting all your eggs in one basket.

As a dedicated Jax player, I find that a hybrid build for the Grandmaster at Arms is often the most viable option. The bonus Armor and Magic resist from Grandmaster's Might gives a large incentive to build both AD and AP, and by doing so, you not only give the Grandmaster bonus survivability, but you make yourself very difficult to itemize against. When I'm capable of dealing both attack damage and magic damage in equal measure, I often find my opponents fleeing from me as their health evaporates. Equally as frustrating for my opponent, I have a healthy amount of Armor and Magic Resist, mitigating damage from both sources.

Now, I will admit, Jax has that unique bonus built into his Kit, and there are few champions in the League at all who have a proper incentive for building both AP and AD, but I don't believe that makes it any less an option for players. Corki, for instance, scales well from both Attack Damage and Ability Power, rounding out his damage from both basic attacks, and his spells. Skarner is another good example: Sure, most of his abilities scale from Ability Power, but I've often found that grabbing a Trinity and a Gunblade keeps my basic attack (and my Q) from being less than what it could be. The same reasoning could apply to Champions like Kassadin, who deals a nice amount of damage from spells, but largely need their basic attacks to continue dealing damage.

My point is, Hybrid Builds aren't useless, or wasteful. There are Champions where building Hybrid is a very useful tactic. At the end of the day, it comes down to player preference, and how well that player can make such a build work.

ThalesMay 7, 20142 votes

This is all completely tangential to my point. I don't deny that there's some champions where mixing in some AD with your AP or vice versa is the way to maximize the damage output (although Kassadin and Corki are certainly not like that). But that's a coincidence of the numbers. If AD items got buffed, it would probably be more correct to build Jax AD rather than mixed. If AP items got buffed, the reverse would be the case. And in neither circumstance would how you actually play Jax change very much. This isn't interesting design; it adds little to the game.

CerbearusMay 6, 20141 votes

I posted another thread about how there is no hybrid pen item, even though some champions have a lot of both types of damage even when only building one type. Corki and MF would both love this item.

ChaosThiefMay 12, 20141 votes

bubut... that weakens both of the items...

Am I missing something?

RiotMorelloMay 7, 20147 votes

Excellent breakdown - this is exactly how we see it. It also tends to show that the scaling and stats of a champion being unique rarely do anything to actually make that champion stand out or provide something unique.

That being said, it means we should probably do something to fix the items, as I do like Guinsoo's especially. The ramping thing should be really useful on a few champions, but the stats make ti so they can't be.

Best Veigar FLMay 7, 20141 votes

"but the stats make ti so they can't be." *it

BreakstarMay 7, 20141 votes

Out of fairness, the 'multiplicative stats' issue could be resolved with proper itemization, perhaps some sort of hybrid item that gives AD for AP and vice versa like Kayle's old passive. But still, the point stands that there's not much reason to support a Hybrid playstyle. Fighting to make a true Hybrid is kinda novel but it doesn't really improve the game much.

That said, Riot has made a few interesting strides there. The example I'd use is Jax - his magic damage abilities have AP scaling, while his AD scaling is lowish (because he mostly autoattacks). That, on top of the ultimate giving bonus resists based on your offensive items (armor if you build AD and MR if you build AP) means that Jax is encouraged to build AD or AP based on the way the game's going. It doesn't generally work that way due to the dominance of BoRK and Triforce, but the idea is solid I think.

Sagee PrimeMay 8, 20141 votes

An item that works similar to Akali's passive?

ShinjusukeMay 8, 20143 votes

And then you have Ezreal, who if Riot would stop ignoring after dumping on him post S2, would realize that AD Ezreal plays passive as hell, in the back poking and kiting backwards, doing damage in small amounts and then finishing with his ult...

Whereas AP Ezreal, although squishier with no sustain and with far less, if any (depending on items built) strong kite, searches for the largest clusters of enemies to burst with his AOE, and finish off priority targets with a Q snipe or Q->E followup burst. Oh, and can actually snipe-kill from across the map with his awesome ultimate (which I swear, REALLY needs to not drop off damage when hitting jungle camps).

But nah. Not worth fixing. Let's just leave him as a weak mixup of a bad version of Lucian and Jinx. Don't embrace the uniqueness of the all-skillshot very-different-playstyle-based-on-build champion. 2hard2care.

LichbladeMay 8, 20141 votes

The only character in the game that is balanced around hybrid items is only Akali.

When Gunbalde first got nerfed back in 2011, it was clearly obvious that it was done to nerf Akali because she benefited too much from the stats it gave, since then her power level is pretty much has been balanced around how effectively she can use it further backed up by her passive.

Akali is the only champion left that has a hybrid stat gaining passive, kayle and Jax ones got removed/reworked. Seeing that Hybrids have no place in the game anymore, you should probably rework Akali's passive and her reliance on Gunblade.

3mptylordMay 8, 20141 votes

AP Kog'Maw and AD Kog'Maw are two entirely different champions, but I'm not sure if that counts as a hybrid. I often get Rylai's Crystal Scepter on AD Kog'Maw, but that's only due to overlapping playstyles and not because it's probably a good idea.

ThalesMay 8, 20141 votes

Yeah, Kog's another good example. And though Riot has nerfed AP Kog a few times, that's just because it was oppressive to play against once it got rolling

StealthinessMay 8, 20141 votes

What if a hybrid champion had mixed multiplicative scalings?

For example, a passive could be "basic attacks deal 20% more damage for every 100 AP." This way, you get multiplicative damage regardless of building AD, AP, or hybrid.

If the AD and AP builds have very different purposes, such as melee damage vs. poke and utility, then interesting build choices emerge.

Of course, this would only work if Gunblade and Rageblade were changed somehow, because otherwise the champion would just buy these items for their discounted stats and lose its unique hybrid nature.

ThalesMay 8, 20141 votes

See what Morello said. Sure, such a passive would probably induce a champion to build a mix of AP and AD, but that's just hybrid for the sake of hybrid. It's not actually adding anything to the game, and as you note, it warps the itemization.

ShinkadaMay 6, 20144 votes

Ask yourself this. 1: What do hybrids actually add to the game? 2: In what ways do hybrids detract from the game?

The answer to the first question is essentially nothing. It enables you to emphasize both spells and auto-attacks but between auto-attacking Mages like Kayle and Teemo, and heavy Lichbane users like Lulu, that's already possible without creating hybrids. If hybrids didn't create any problems, that would be fine, you could have hybrids as well as otherwise-standard Mages with auto-attack ratios. Other than that they don't actually add anything to gameplay.

The answer to the second is why there are no viable hybrids. They have mixed damage which, as Feral Flare recently demonstrated, is a bad idea because you're forced into specific itemization (you need both armour and MR instead of having the option of only itemizing against the big threats on the enemy team), and on top of that, is obviously more expensive than just one or the other. When a Flare jungler got far ahead you would need to spend the money on a sunfire cape AND a negatron just to get the same amount of ehp you'd have against an Elder Lizard jungler with just the sunfire. More cost for the exact same stats, just because of mixed damage. On top of this they have too many options. Look at pre-nerf Kayle; she had incredible single-target burst. The normal answer to that against champs such as LeBlanc and Zed (and even AoE bursters like Orianna) is to largely ignore them. They're going to get their combo off, you can't really stop it, so you murder their whole team after their damage is spent. That didn't work on Kayle, and wouldn't work on any hybrid character, because they have burst AND sustained damage. Even if you focus them they pull their weight by bursting someone (bad outcome, the point of focusing is to remove people before they pull their weight), if you don't focus them they do that AND keep layering dps. It's a lose/lose.

tl;dr: hybrid champs were nerfed/turned into non-hybrids for a reason. It's not that Riot don't realize hybrids are un-viable, it's that they don't want them to be viable, and neither does anyone else who remembers their moment of glory. I'm not sure why you'd think something as semantic as damage type would be 'fresh' in the first place.

SirTezlaMay 6, 20142 votes

I play Ezreal and Akali hybrid, I don't think that there needs to be many.

CerbearusMay 6, 20142 votes

There are a couple champions that would benefit from hybrid itemization, but the items just aren't good enough to justify it.

Overall, Gunblade is bought in 2% of ranked games and Rageblade is bought in .5% of games. Kayle, Akali and Jax are the only people who build them semi-regularly.

hochiganaMay 6, 20141 votes

I agree. I miss the old hybrid Jax that if he wasn't countered right or well played against, he was so devasting i'm not saying bring back a rebuffed Jax just throw in some more options for hybrid builds cause right now all you do for hybrid is build the best of the ad and ap items and there it is a make shift hybrid. i mean really they need to bring back the ability to hybrid with items that can

SkV ShadoAnnaruMay 6, 20142 votes

There's a few issues with this. You buff the numbers on the skills, then players with just exploit the better numbers and turn ADC to APC and vice-versa, example: old AP Master Yi.

Ok, what if you decide to buff the items? Well, then they might become too good and then you'll see everyone building it, not just hybrids.

The best of these solutions seem to be more hybrid-oriented items. You have to be careful with what you decide to change. There could be a mix of all 3 solutions, but just keep in mind it's not so simple.

Best Veigar FLMay 6, 20142 votes

I think it would be nice to have more hybrid oppurtunities and for the hybrid champs make there hybrid routes as good as there pure ap/ad routes. Like Kayle where if you go hybrid you need build a combination of items like item 3115 and item 3172 or item 3153 to even start off with a decent core of items compared to the pure ap version where all you need is and item 3100 then your core is done. It would be nice to make it easier for hybrid champs to be able to do more and maybe even make it so they dont have to rely on item 3146 and item 3078 purley for hybrid damage.

Hyrum GraffMay 6, 20142 votes

I'd like to emphasize one of the things Shinkada said, and that you said in your post:

Hybrid was a lot of fun as you didn't do a ton of one type of damage but a little of both, so enemies had to itemize accordingly.

The problem with this is that if hybrid champions get fed, they deal a lot of both, and can't itemize against them like you could a different champ - they become unstoppable.

It's not healthy for the game if hybrid champs are consistently unstoppable, so hybrid itemization can't be that good. The problem with this is that, if they get behind, they become useless.

It's a balancing nightmare; I like where league is right now with hybrid itemization.

There's one more thing, though, that I want to say:

While I am against hybrid itemization, I am TOTALLY FOR champs with different build paths. I love that you can build ez, or shaco, or kog'maw AD or AP. But I think it's better that you have to choose one build path or the other, not both.

ShinkadaMay 6, 20142 votes

This much I agree with. Especially in the case of Kog'maw, AP Kog is a really interesting and unusual champion that differs from his AD version a lot. A skillshot-based artillery mage with anti-tank consistent damage is cool. Also Ez in general can pretty much just build however he wants, blue Ez is still viable, onhit stacking works, AD stacking is okay and standard ADC builds work, to go along with AP builds which are a bit slept on imo. Those are examples of different builds that actually add to the game and make the champ in question play differently. Hybrid Jax played identical to bruiser Jax, he was just better because mixed damage + burst + just as durable because dumb ulti. Same goes for Kayle.

KrimeMay 6, 20141 votes

I like this too. More dual ratio'ed champs plz!

ThalesMay 6, 20141 votes

As a note, a lot of the duo-build champs don't actually have both types of ratios, especially not on the same ability. Kog is pure AP ratios (with some steroids that also make him very viable as an ADC), Trist is pure AP ratios, and even Ez, who I consider a champ with poor differentiation between his builds, has stuff that entirely benefits one or the other.

Nova longusMay 6, 20142 votes

Talon well then

FantasySniperMay 7, 20141 votes

Vayne , Darius , Draven , Riven , Zed : Pardon us...

BigfootNamedYetiMay 8, 20141 votes

I feel like they all secretly workout at the same gym together 24/7 AD

The Dark StarMay 7, 20142 votes

I think instead of focusing on the items, focus on the champions. You can build champions in more ways than one.

For example, when most people play Malzahar they dont initially think to build a item 3146 or item 3072 even though his passive voidlings deal 100% of his additional AD as bonus damage.

My hybrid build consists of item 3146 item 3072 item 3151 item 3255 item 3089 and one other defensive item based on the enemy team composition (though usually I end up with a item 3116 )

My point is, stop trying to play the same thing every game, and you wont get bored. Try something new. Annie does surprisingly well as an ADC, since she has the active autoattack shield. Aatrox has AP scalings for a reason, and if you build right, he's a great mid laner.

There's plenty of "hybrid" champions out there, you just haven't been looking hard enough.

tl;dr Stop playing Riven top every game, try something new.

ChaosThiefMay 12, 20141 votes

"Stop playing Riven top every game, try something new."

Just about everyone in low silver down hates riven.

Remlap1223May 6, 20141 votes

Akali Blitzcrank Corki Ezreal Jax Jayce Kayle Kennen Lucian ish MissFortune with some serious mental gymnastics Nidalee Shaco Shyvana Tristana Varus KogMaw

lorewiseMay 6, 20141 votes

One of the main problems with this is the game as it is right now heavily favors burst damage and any champion that doesn't have burst damage has to have some other kind of functionality like CC, mobility or global map control.

And as others have pointed out giving a hybrid champion burst potential just makes them way too difficult to deal with. Give a hybrid champ lots of utility and they can't do a ton of damage so what's the point of making them hybrid anyway?

I mean I agree it would be interesting from a theory crafting perspective but it seems like a nightmare to design and balance.

ModCaptainMårvelousMay 6, 20141 votes

Part of the problem with making hybrid items is that some of them end up being "Why wouldn't I upgrade this?"

Take for example item 3140 . Sometimes an AP would get this. Except when all their items are maxed out, why wouldn't they get item 3139 ? Sure, they don't need AD so much but it's an obvious upgrade. The same problem comes when trying to combine AD and AP items. Eventually, even a 100% AD champion will get a void staff/last whisper combined item because what else will they buy?

Crimson Mutt 2May 6, 20141 votes

Nobody's suggesting LW+VS into a hybridpen item.......Thet would be retarded...

ModCaptainMårvelousMay 6, 20143 votes

Actually, if you look in this thread it's been suggested.

TeratogenMay 7, 20142 votes

That's not what he suggested. Read between the lines, he was just using those to illustrate a combination of the items so people would understand the purpose. Considering if you look at the price he suggested it's not a combination of the two.

StrongWinWebbMay 7, 20141 votes

So, now we come to the hybrids. I think that every champ, maybe have some sort of unorthodox and more challenging way to play, should have atleast one ability that stacks ap and another that can be manipulated the way Gangplank can be. I ap gp. And it gets ridic.

StrongWinWebbMay 7, 20141 votes

Every champ should be able to choose between ap and ad. Like Gangplank. Or just have abilities, that have dual effects , and ap is used manipulate one of the effects and ad the other. A new champ like that would be difficult to play, but also have strategic potential.

JustBoneBrookMay 9, 20141 votes

So Riot effectively killed hybrid builds when they nerfed the crap out of Gunblade back when Dominion came out. I would like to see a resurgence of hybrid builds.

Hybrid was a lot of fun as you didn't do a ton of one type of damage but a little of both, so enemies had to itemize accordingly.

Two ways to fix this, Buff AP champion's AD ratios and AD champions AP ratios, or buff the items themselves (Guinsoo, Gunblade) and maybe add some more.

I would also like to see a champion built with hybrid builds in mind (much like how Jax was). It would be a refreshing addition to the game outside of the current "Is he AD or AP?". Adding a third choice would be really cool and theorycrafting itemization for him would be quite fun.

I agreed but play Miss fortune she make a good ad / ap champ, fizz (in fact alot of the Bilgewater champ can do the too at the same time . but the prob is really the item i think.