Lack of Hybrid Champions

Cerbearus·5/6/2014, 3:12:42 PM·42 votes·6,129 views

So Riot effectively killed hybrid builds when they nerfed the crap out of Gunblade back when Dominion came out. I would like to see a resurgence of hybrid builds.

Hybrid was a lot of fun as you didn't do a ton of one type of damage but a little of both, so enemies had to itemize accordingly.

Two ways to fix this, Buff AP champion's AD ratios and AD champions AP ratios, or buff the items themselves (Guinsoo, Gunblade) and maybe add some more.

I would also like to see a champion built with hybrid builds in mind (much like how Jax was). It would be a refreshing addition to the game outside of the current "Is he AD or AP?". Adding a third choice would be really cool and theorycrafting itemization for him would be quite fun.

44 Comments

Thales5/6/2014, 7:48:22 PM20 votes

Hybrid doesn't actually work in the game, at least in any way like how it has been implemented in the past. If you just have it as damage scaling from both AD and AP, there's little functional difference between that and pure AD or pure AP. Mixed damage is not a substantial addition to gameplay, as anyone who's played against Mundo or Shyvana can testify. If a champ has damage scaling on both AD and AP, people will usually find whichever scales better and stack the crap out of that.

The other challenge is that both AD and AP are heavily reliant on multiplicative scalings to reach their full effect. Penetrations, Deathcap passive, attack speed, etc. A champion encouraged to build both AP and AD won't be able to use those to full effects. That's another reason why even on hybridish champs like Kayle, Jax, and Akali, people build almost exclusively one stat. Kayle is probably the best example. Hybrid Kayle has always been mediocre, but pure AD Kayle used to be solid. After Riot slightly buffed her AP ratios, AD Kayle died, but pure AP Kayle saw a resurgence. We went directly from one to the other, with no hybrid stage in between.

It might be possible to make a hybrid champion where the AD and the AP serve different but complementary roles. A champion with AP ratios on utility scaling, who uses those ratios to stay in range while using their AD to damage their victim, perhaps. Realistically, such a champion would probably end up being built heavily in only one direction, but at least there's a choice. As it has been previously used, hybrid builds add little to the game, and require major finagling of game systems to make work. A third choice is no good unless it's in some way clearly distinguishing itself from the other two, and hybrid does not pass that test.

Shinkada5/6/2014, 8:35:03 PM4 votes

Ask yourself this. 1: What do hybrids actually add to the game? 2: In what ways do hybrids detract from the game?

The answer to the first question is essentially nothing. It enables you to emphasize both spells and auto-attacks but between auto-attacking Mages like Kayle and Teemo, and heavy Lichbane users like Lulu, that's already possible without creating hybrids. If hybrids didn't create any problems, that would be fine, you could have hybrids as well as otherwise-standard Mages with auto-attack ratios. Other than that they don't actually add anything to gameplay.

The answer to the second is why there are no viable hybrids. They have mixed damage which, as Feral Flare recently demonstrated, is a bad idea because you're forced into specific itemization (you need both armour and MR instead of having the option of only itemizing against the big threats on the enemy team), and on top of that, is obviously more expensive than just one or the other. When a Flare jungler got far ahead you would need to spend the money on a sunfire cape AND a negatron just to get the same amount of ehp you'd have against an Elder Lizard jungler with just the sunfire. More cost for the exact same stats, just because of mixed damage. On top of this they have too many options. Look at pre-nerf Kayle; she had incredible single-target burst. The normal answer to that against champs such as LeBlanc and Zed (and even AoE bursters like Orianna) is to largely ignore them. They're going to get their combo off, you can't really stop it, so you murder their whole team after their damage is spent. That didn't work on Kayle, and wouldn't work on any hybrid character, because they have burst AND sustained damage. Even if you focus them they pull their weight by bursting someone (bad outcome, the point of focusing is to remove people before they pull their weight), if you don't focus them they do that AND keep layering dps. It's a lose/lose.

tl;dr: hybrid champs were nerfed/turned into non-hybrids for a reason. It's not that Riot don't realize hybrids are un-viable, it's that they don't want them to be viable, and neither does anyone else who remembers their moment of glory. I'm not sure why you'd think something as semantic as damage type would be 'fresh' in the first place.

The Dark Star5/7/2014, 2:40:53 AM2 votes

I think instead of focusing on the items, focus on the champions. You can build champions in more ways than one.

For example, when most people play Malzahar they dont initially think to build a item 3146 or item 3072 even though his passive voidlings deal 100% of his additional AD as bonus damage.

My hybrid build consists of item 3146 item 3072 item 3151 item 3255 item 3089 and one other defensive item based on the enemy team composition (though usually I end up with a item 3116 )

My point is, stop trying to play the same thing every game, and you wont get bored. Try something new. Annie does surprisingly well as an ADC, since she has the active autoattack shield. Aatrox has AP scalings for a reason, and if you build right, he's a great mid laner.

There's plenty of "hybrid" champions out there, you just haven't been looking hard enough.

tl;dr Stop playing Riven top every game, try something new.

SirTezla5/6/2014, 3:34:06 PM2 votes

I play Ezreal and Akali hybrid, I don't think that there needs to be many.

Hyrum Graff5/6/2014, 8:53:58 PM2 votes

I'd like to emphasize one of the things Shinkada said, and that you said in your post:

Hybrid was a lot of fun as you didn't do a ton of one type of damage but a little of both, so enemies had to itemize accordingly.

The problem with this is that if hybrid champions get fed, they deal a lot of both, and can't itemize against them like you could a different champ - they become unstoppable.

It's not healthy for the game if hybrid champs are consistently unstoppable, so hybrid itemization can't be that good. The problem with this is that, if they get behind, they become useless.

It's a balancing nightmare; I like where league is right now with hybrid itemization.

There's one more thing, though, that I want to say:

While I am against hybrid itemization, I am TOTALLY FOR champs with different build paths. I love that you can build ez, or shaco, or kog'maw AD or AP. But I think it's better that you have to choose one build path or the other, not both.

Best Veigar FL5/6/2014, 7:12:37 PM2 votes

I think it would be nice to have more hybrid oppurtunities and for the hybrid champs make there hybrid routes as good as there pure ap/ad routes. Like Kayle where if you go hybrid you need build a combination of items like item 3115 and item 3172 or item 3153 to even start off with a decent core of items compared to the pure ap version where all you need is and item 3100 then your core is done. It would be nice to make it easier for hybrid champs to be able to do more and maybe even make it so they dont have to rely on item 3146 and item 3078 purley for hybrid damage.

SkV ShadoAnnaru5/6/2014, 6:31:29 PM2 votes

There's a few issues with this. You buff the numbers on the skills, then players with just exploit the better numbers and turn ADC to APC and vice-versa, example: old AP Master Yi.

Ok, what if you decide to buff the items? Well, then they might become too good and then you'll see everyone building it, not just hybrids.

The best of these solutions seem to be more hybrid-oriented items. You have to be careful with what you decide to change. There could be a mix of all 3 solutions, but just keep in mind it's not so simple.

Nova longus5/6/2014, 10:30:28 PM2 votes

Talon well then

JustBoneBrook5/9/2014, 6:22:00 AM1 votes

So Riot effectively killed hybrid builds when they nerfed the crap out of Gunblade back when Dominion came out. I would like to see a resurgence of hybrid builds.

Hybrid was a lot of fun as you didn't do a ton of one type of damage but a little of both, so enemies had to itemize accordingly.

Two ways to fix this, Buff AP champion's AD ratios and AD champions AP ratios, or buff the items themselves (Guinsoo, Gunblade) and maybe add some more.

I would also like to see a champion built with hybrid builds in mind (much like how Jax was). It would be a refreshing addition to the game outside of the current "Is he AD or AP?". Adding a third choice would be really cool and theorycrafting itemization for him would be quite fun.

I agreed but play Miss fortune she make a good ad / ap champ, fizz (in fact alot of the Bilgewater champ can do the too at the same time . but the prob is really the item i think.

Remlap12235/6/2014, 4:56:11 PM1 votes

Akali Blitzcrank Corki Ezreal Jax Jayce Kayle Kennen Lucian ish MissFortune with some serious mental gymnastics Nidalee Shaco Shyvana Tristana Varus KogMaw

lorewise5/6/2014, 9:17:13 PM1 votes

One of the main problems with this is the game as it is right now heavily favors burst damage and any champion that doesn't have burst damage has to have some other kind of functionality like CC, mobility or global map control.

And as others have pointed out giving a hybrid champion burst potential just makes them way too difficult to deal with. Give a hybrid champ lots of utility and they can't do a ton of damage so what's the point of making them hybrid anyway?

I mean I agree it would be interesting from a theory crafting perspective but it seems like a nightmare to design and balance.

ModCaptainMårvelous5/6/2014, 9:39:45 PM1 votes

Part of the problem with making hybrid items is that some of them end up being "Why wouldn't I upgrade this?"

Take for example item 3140 . Sometimes an AP would get this. Except when all their items are maxed out, why wouldn't they get item 3139 ? Sure, they don't need AD so much but it's an obvious upgrade. The same problem comes when trying to combine AD and AP items. Eventually, even a 100% AD champion will get a void staff/last whisper combined item because what else will they buy?

StrongWinWebb5/7/2014, 2:24:10 AM1 votes

So, now we come to the hybrids. I think that every champ, maybe have some sort of unorthodox and more challenging way to play, should have atleast one ability that stacks ap and another that can be manipulated the way Gangplank can be. I ap gp. And it gets ridic.

StrongWinWebb5/7/2014, 2:25:56 AM1 votes

Every champ should be able to choose between ap and ad. Like Gangplank. Or just have abilities, that have dual effects , and ap is used manipulate one of the effects and ad the other. A new champ like that would be difficult to play, but also have strategic potential.