One change to fix the problems that cause Tryndamere to be snowbally, cheesy, and non-interactive

Critkeeper··8 votes·708 views

Tryndamere's critical strikes penetrate 100% of his target's bonus armor, but does 40% reduced damage; additionally, tryndamere cannot use flat armor penetration and treats flat armor penetration as if it were critical strike chance; In other words, rather than 2*AD on a critical strike, Tryndamere does 1.2*AD on a critical strike that ignores bonus armor. If he gets an IE the damage would be 1.5*AD.

Here are what the numbers look like for 500, 750 and 1000 point critical strikes against a target with various amounts of bonus armor and 80 innate armor.


http://i.imgur.com/kVxVivk.jpg

Graphically, with no last whisper: black is current and magenta is proposed damage curve as a function of enemy bonus armor.

http://i.imgur.com/zFyCzfq.jpg

Graphically with a last whisper: black is current and magenta is proposed damage curve as a function of enemy bonus armor.

http://i.imgur.com/QhEdh5k.jpg


##Summary

This change would greatly diminish Tryndamere's ability to cheese lanes at level 2 or 3, and it would immensely reduce his damage to targets that have very low or no bonus armor, like carries. In fact, he does only 60% of the damage he currently does to squishies with this change.

As a trade off for doing far less damage overall, his damage becomes target agnostic-- it can't be reduced by bonus armor, only innate armor and large amounts of health or damage reducers like attack speed slows can mitigate his damage output directly, though his damage output already reduces itself by 40% for you.

Basically this change makes it so that Tryndamere doesn't really care who he hits, as long as he hits something. He does the same damage number to anyone, so instead of focusing on cheesing squishy carries in team fights as an assassin might, he focuses on just auto attacking as many times as possible regardless of the target as a proper fighter would.


###How would this make him a more reliable team fighter?

It gives him a definite role in a team fight.

Zyra and friends zone out bruisers like shyvanna from diving their kogmaw because she has a ton of peel and disables from which to give kogmaw plenty of free hits. In other words the value of her spells in terms of damage, given that kogmaw would otherwise be standing around and not doing anything useful, is however much damage kogmaw can do to her in those precious seconds during which shyvanna is locked down.

Tryndamere would provide zoning power. Unlike supports that specialize in peeling in a team fight to grant the marksmen and friends free damage, Tryndamere simply provides target agnostic damage on his own. Shyvanna would be afraid to dive kog directly even in the absence of disables simply because of the damage Tryndamere would do to her if she did. His ability to protect the marksmen otherwise is limited, but still present in mocking shout attack damage reduction and powerful slow.

He would be a very targeted kind of champion-- aimed at a very specific niche. He doesn't defend well against an assassin like leblanc, his specialty is body guarding against bruisers like renekton and j4. He does it by being immune to death from damage via the enemy backline and body blocking skill shots for his ad carry, greatly reducing the ad of the bruiser in question, and ripping them apart on the spot. Other than that, he wouldn't do anything particularly well in a team fight-- he doesn't clean up particularly well because of the reduced overall damage. He doesn't dive particularly well. He doesn't have an outstanding amount of utility.

He'd just do one thing well. Bodyguarding against bruisers and being a man while doing it. And I think that is more in line with his theme. Running from large team fights and focusing intensely on avoiding groups of potential challenges while pushing lanes is very non-confrontational and not in line with his identity.

11 Comments

Bethor Kookalian3 votes

The problem with excessive ArPen(100% is ridic) is that it makes purchasing armor feel REALLY bad.

ModUlanopo2 votes

While I appreciate what you're trying to do, any champion whose kit makes them a superior duelist will be deployed as a split-pusher. None of your changes address that aspect of Tryndamere's abilities.

Also, despite the precedent set by Yasuo's crit mechanics, what you propose is much too complicated and unintuitive. There is no precedent for preventing a champion from using specific runes or for changing their basic functionality.

I'm sitting here trying to imagine how I would explain your mechanics and the proper counter-build to a new player, as Tryndamere is popular with beginners, and I'm at a loss. Do I tell them to stack health, as they would against true damage champs?

Finally, any mechanic that completely ignores items is going to be problematic. Building armor against Corki and Twitch may not be optimal, but it at least does something.

Critkeeper1 votes

The only thing I have to respond to that is: new precedents are set every day.

Can't know for certain unless we try.

ModUlanopo1 votes

Absolutely. I applaud your creativity in exploring potential new design space.

What I would like to ask you to remember, however, is that the takeaway from the things that don't work are often just as important as the things that work. Putting aside the issue of precedent, I think the following need to be addressed:

  • Your idea is confusing and counterintuitive.
  • Your idea is difficult to gear against.
  • Your idea nullifies gear.
  • Your idea does not make him incapable of split-pushing. If anything, it makes him stronger.
  • Tryndamere already ignores one game mechanic (mana). It is unwise to have a character that ignores two.
YouLostMe1 votes

I don't like the fact that you can't really build to stop tryndamere. Lategame the enemy team just sort of treats trynd as a true damage source, but earlygame you don't know whether to build armor, or HP, or damage against him in lane.

Critkeeper1 votes

You would want to build health primarily. You have to treat Tryndamere the same way you would treat any threat source. You can't just dive onto a carry as renekton and ignore Tryndamere's influence as a bodyguard any more than you would ignore morgana or thresh.

The real difference that would take becoming accomodated to would be the fact that hard initiating tanks in general no longer counter Tryndamere, but rather its the other way around. You would want to take someone with high burst to stop Tryndamere in lane since they can now absorb quite a few hits from him and either keep kiting him for long period of times while damaging him or simply burst him hard then chase him down and kill him.

Those would be very effective because Tryndamere's damage is so harshly capped with this change, even if he builds raw damage he will only do moderate damage to a squishy target, so if he is bursted or wittled down and he uses undying rage to try to kill his aggressor, he will only do about 60% of the damage he currently does against that squishy target.

Shrikesnest1 votes

This is very interesting. I'm not sure if I agree entirely with the chosen direction, but there is some precedent for it and I can't argue intelligently with the excellent data points you've provided. It just feels kind of arcane to alter the critical mechanics on a specific champion. I know they've already done it with Yasuo. I didn't like it when they did that, either. Having mechanics that work the same way 99% of the time and then arbitrarily don't on a given champion seems like inelegant design to me.

Nonetheless, I agree with your vision on the direction the champion should take overall. His kit desperately wants to be a stripped-to-the-waist badass bodyguard. We should let it do so.

Only Play Nid1 votes

Honestly, nerf his utility and he´s fine without dmg reduction buffs. It´s really his low CD, longer than flash range E, as well as the slow from W, and his obnoxious 6 second invulnerability ult. Nerf the W or the E so he doesn´t gut the enemy attack damage AND slow AND spin onto them. That´s the issue.

TheRealCoxinator1 votes

The spin has a travel time and having played him when he came out 7 seconds is a huge difference from the current 5. His w only reduces ad by maybe 40 I think at max level. As well as you have to be running which some what implies that you are losing a fight. He is just a fighter that does very well when snowballing.

Critkeeper1 votes

Only Play Nid is right, he does offer quite a bit of utility. I would gladly see his spinning slash have its cooldown nerfed a bit to compensate for the proposed changes. I would rather keep the attack damage reduction in tact on mocking shout. -80 attack damage is quite significant and it can help him to bodyguard the types of bruisers he would be designed to deny in team fights.

Critkeeper1 votes

I'm not certain whether or not it would be prudent to allow the bonus armor pen version Tryndamere to even benefit from % armor pen like last whisper. LW itself tends to collapse the damage output of the current tryndamere and the proposed tryndamere to the same number, but it isn't skewed tremendously.

It would probably be a good idea to just lock tryndamere out of buying % armor pen or convert it to crit chance or something else.

The purpose of these changes isn't to flatten Tryndamere's build paths or to diminish the "feel" of armor for his opponents. Its to give tryndamere a way to do a baseline amount of damage regardless of his target, and if there have to be side effects to achieve that then they ought to be weighed and valued according to the intended change.

More from Live Gameplay Balance

More by Critkeeper