How to Reward Vets (Without just dumping 30+ boxes on them)

[{quoted}](name=Riot Cactopus,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=8h0YpEWl,comment-id=0015,timestamp=2017-09-04T22:15:32.499+0000)

Ah hell... I guess I'll jump in here because I'm a little confused by the post and I want to understand y'all's perspective better.

One thing I'd like to understand is that it seems like this is a reaction to multiple changes: runes becoming free, the new leveling system, and a more general feeling that maybe Riot just doesn't show that we care enough about veteran players. You mentioned in the headline something about "30 chests," but we said we aren't going to do that because the new chests system is just a replacement for the IP you get after games now—you've already gotten the IP for all the games you've ever played, so there's no reward that veterans are missing out on as a direct result of the leveling system change. Does that make sense?

You're also pitching this idea as being "in lieu" of the rune rewards we're doing, but I think that doing this idea instead of the rune rewards would be unfair to people who've spent the most on runes. The point of the runes rewards we're giving out isn't to "reward veterans" in a general sense; the point is to take care of people who spent IP on runes and give them a little back as a way of saying "thank you" for using a system that we're now changing. It's not even meant as a refund, because remember, we're just replacing the current system with a new and better one.

Those things aside, **it seems to me that what you're really saying with this post is that Riot should do more to show that we care about veteran players. **If that's really what you're trying to get at, I'm with you. I'm not sure I agree that we should just haphazardly hand out skins to accounts just because they've played a game a couple of times per season (after all, that was never the deal when you made your account—you play games for fun and because you want to, not because we promised to give you skins for free). But I'm interested in hearing more about what y'all think we could do to better recognize veterans generally. Does it have to be just random piles of rewards, or is there some better ways we can give veterans to express their longstanding status?

Sorry for the long post. I'm just genuinely interested in digging into some of these nuances with you guys.

Honestly, this post is so tone-deaf I think you really need to do a better job reading what people are offended about before jumping in.

I know you mean well, but this feels like showing up in Texas right now and being like 'so why's everyone so wet, what's the deal?'

[{quoted}](name=Riot Cactopus,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=8h0YpEWl,comment-id=0015,timestamp=2017-09-04T22:15:32.499+0000)

Ah hell... I guess I'll jump in here because I'm a little confused by the post and I want to understand y'all's perspective better.

One thing I'd like to understand is that it seems like this is a reaction to multiple changes: runes becoming free, the new leveling system, and a more general feeling that maybe Riot just doesn't show that we care enough about veteran players. You mentioned in the headline something about "30 chests," but we said we aren't going to do that because the new chests system is just a replacement for the IP you get after games now—you've already gotten the IP for all the games you've ever played, so there's no reward that veterans are missing out on as a direct result of the leveling system change. Does that make sense?

You're also pitching this idea as being "in lieu" of the rune rewards we're doing, but I think that doing this idea instead of the rune rewards would be unfair to people who've spent the most on runes. The point of the runes rewards we're giving out isn't to "reward veterans" in a general sense; the point is to take care of people who spent IP on runes and give them a little back as a way of saying "thank you" for using a system that we're now changing. It's not even meant as a refund, because remember, we're just replacing the current system with a new and better one.

Those things aside, **it seems to me that what you're really saying with this post is that Riot should do more to show that we care about veteran players. **If that's really what you're trying to get at, I'm with you. I'm not sure I agree that we should just haphazardly hand out skins to accounts just because they've played a game a couple of times per season (after all, that was never the deal when you made your account—you play games for fun and because you want to, not because we promised to give you skins for free). But I'm interested in hearing more about what y'all think we could do to better recognize veterans generally. Does it have to be just random piles of rewards, or is there some better ways we can give veterans to express their longstanding status?

Sorry for the long post. I'm just genuinely interested in digging into some of these nuances with you guys.

To me, some recognition of the time I started and a way to communicate it would be enough. Something like some extra flair to your border maybe? or even just an icon. I think I am in the minority but I don't really think riot owes us IP, RP, chests or anything like that.

[{quoted}](name=Riot Cactopus,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=8h0YpEWl,comment-id=0015,timestamp=2017-09-04T22:15:32.499+0000)

Ah hell... I guess I'll jump in here because I'm a little confused by the post and I want to understand y'all's perspective better.

One thing I'd like to understand is that it seems like this is a reaction to multiple changes: runes becoming free, the new leveling system, and a more general feeling that maybe Riot just doesn't show that we care enough about veteran players. You mentioned in the headline something about "30 chests," but we said we aren't going to do that because the new chests system is just a replacement for the IP you get after games now—you've already gotten the IP for all the games you've ever played, so there's no reward that veterans are missing out on as a direct result of the leveling system change. Does that make sense?

You're also pitching this idea as being "in lieu" of the rune rewards we're doing, but I think that doing this idea instead of the rune rewards would be unfair to people who've spent the most on runes. The point of the runes rewards we're giving out isn't to "reward veterans" in a general sense; the point is to take care of people who spent IP on runes and give them a little back as a way of saying "thank you" for using a system that we're now changing. It's not even meant as a refund, because remember, we're just replacing the current system with a new and better one.

Those things aside, **it seems to me that what you're really saying with this post is that Riot should do more to show that we care about veteran players. **If that's really what you're trying to get at, I'm with you. I'm not sure I agree that we should just haphazardly hand out skins to accounts just because they've played a game a couple of times per season (after all, that was never the deal when you made your account—you play games for fun and because you want to, not because we promised to give you skins for free). But I'm interested in hearing more about what y'all think we could do to better recognize veterans generally. Does it have to be just random piles of rewards, or is there some better ways we can give veterans to express their longstanding status?

Sorry for the long post. I'm just genuinely interested in digging into some of these nuances with you guys.

Personally, im fine with what you guys are rolling out. I think it sounds like a fantastic idea. It would be cool if you guys could add a gemstone or two into the ip shop thats rolling out at seasons end(or maybe a new skin 975 value skin that goes legacy at the shops close?), but the program that you guys are rolling out seems way more than fair. Im of the opinion people are being a tad bit entitled when it comes to old player rewards. The reward of playing the game is enough for me. Thanks for the good times and the... not so good times. Just my 2 cents from someone whos been playing league since season 3 off and on.

[{quoted}](name=Riot Cactopus,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=8h0YpEWl,comment-id=0015,timestamp=2017-09-04T22:15:32.499+0000)

Ah hell... I guess I'll jump in here because I'm a little confused by the post and I want to understand y'all's perspective better.

One thing I'd like to understand is that it seems like this is a reaction to multiple changes: runes becoming free, the new leveling system, and a more general feeling that maybe Riot just doesn't show that we care enough about veteran players. You mentioned in the headline something about "30 chests," but we said we aren't going to do that because the new chests system is just a replacement for the IP you get after games now—you've already gotten the IP for all the games you've ever played, so there's no reward that veterans are missing out on as a direct result of the leveling system change. Does that make sense?

You're also pitching this idea as being "in lieu" of the rune rewards we're doing, but I think that doing this idea instead of the rune rewards would be unfair to people who've spent the most on runes. The point of the runes rewards we're giving out isn't to "reward veterans" in a general sense; the point is to take care of people who spent IP on runes and give them a little back as a way of saying "thank you" for using a system that we're now changing. It's not even meant as a refund, because remember, we're just replacing the current system with a new and better one.

Those things aside, **it seems to me that what you're really saying with this post is that Riot should do more to show that we care about veteran players. **If that's really what you're trying to get at, I'm with you. I'm not sure I agree that we should just haphazardly hand out skins to accounts just because they've played a game a couple of times per season (after all, that was never the deal when you made your account—you play games for fun and because you want to, not because we promised to give you skins for free). But I'm interested in hearing more about what y'all think we could do to better recognize veterans generally. Does it have to be just random piles of rewards, or is there some better ways we can give veterans to express their longstanding status?

Sorry for the long post. I'm just genuinely interested in digging into some of these nuances with you guys.

I guess for one thing, what's happening to the Snowdown runes some players still have? People who got those were long time ago, some recognition of something special they got, maybe retain some specialness to it?

Other than that, good post. Games change all the time, inner mechanics, balance, content. Not refunding runes is the same as not refunding a skin because the champ got an update. You got your value out of it.

[{quoted}](name=Riot Cactopus,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=8h0YpEWl,comment-id=0015,timestamp=2017-09-04T22:15:32.499+0000)

Ah hell... I guess I'll jump in here because I'm a little confused by the post and I want to understand y'all's perspective better.

One thing I'd like to understand is that it seems like this is a reaction to multiple changes: runes becoming free, the new leveling system, and a more general feeling that maybe Riot just doesn't show that we care enough about veteran players. You mentioned in the headline something about "30 chests," but we said we aren't going to do that because the new chests system is just a replacement for the IP you get after games now—you've already gotten the IP for all the games you've ever played, so there's no reward that veterans are missing out on as a direct result of the leveling system change. Does that make sense?

I still have a major concern for BE only being available from level chests.

However, as said in another reply, I'm still sold on the rune rework. Just not the refund portion.

You're also pitching this idea as being "in lieu" of the rune rewards we're doing, but I think that doing this idea instead of the rune rewards would be unfair to people who've spent the most on runes. The point of the runes rewards we're giving out isn't to "reward veterans" in a general sense; the point is to take care of people who spent IP on runes and give them a little back as a way of saying "thank you" for using a system that we're now changing. It's not even meant as a refund, because remember, we're just replacing the current system with a new and better one.

Pretty sure he's using it as a sort of retroactive reward for the fact you're redoing the level system. Something that still makes sense due to the fact you aren't going to retroactively reward level 30 players (regardless of WHEN they hit level 30). I would not get anything from said 1-30 chests, but I'm sure there are plenty of other fresh level 30 accounts that would greatly enjoy being compensated since they are clearly losing out.

And if we're going to be honest, your current refund policy on runes is not taking care of people who dedicated time and IP to them; particularly since these were required for playing ranked with the mindset of "play to win". You're giving players less than 50% of what they paid for runes simply for having bought them prior to the cutoff date. I don't see companies punishing players for buying their games when they switch to the F2P model (see Battleborn and Evolve).

Those things aside, **it seems to me that what you're really saying with this post is that Riot should do more to show that we care about veteran players. **If that's really what you're trying to get at, I'm with you. I'm not sure I agree that we should just haphazardly hand out skins to accounts just because they've played a game a couple of times per season (after all, that was never the deal when you made your account—you play games for fun and because you want to, not because we promised to give you skins for free). But I'm interested in hearing more about what y'all think we could do to better recognize veterans generally. Does it have to be just random piles of rewards, or is there some better ways we can give veterans to express their longstanding status?

There will need to be a mix of both, in my opinion.

Before players were awarded RP for leveling, players would show their support for the game by buying skins. Even after said reward, using skins was still considered a show of support if they were 975 or higher.

Once Hextech Loot came out, it felt like you started pandering to the new players at the cost of veterans. This Rune Refund policy is just a lot more open about it because we are penalized for having bought runes sooner (see above).

Sorry for the long post. I'm just genuinely interested in digging into some of these nuances with you guys.

I'm glad you're asking for feedback, I can only hope that Riot (as a whole) is actually taking considerations based on it.

[{quoted}](name=Riot Cactopus,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=8h0YpEWl,comment-id=0015,timestamp=2017-09-04T22:15:32.499+0000)

Ah hell... I guess I'll jump in here because I'm a little confused by the post and I want to understand y'all's perspective better.

Hey Cact. Gonna respond to you paragraph by paragraph so it makes my thoughts more clear.

One thing I'd like to understand is that it seems like this is a reaction to multiple changes: runes becoming free, the new leveling system, and a more general feeling that maybe Riot just doesn't show that we care enough about veteran players. You mentioned in the headline something about "30 chests," but we said we aren't going to do that because the new chests system is just a replacement for the IP you get after games now—you've already gotten the IP for all the games you've ever played, so there's no reward that veterans are missing out on as a direct result of the leveling system change. Does that make sense?

This is partially in response to Ghostcrawler's comment about why they're not giving chests away: Partially because you basically got the 1-30 chests but also because there's not something intrinsically rewarding about having a giant plate of chests dumped in front of you. It's fine, I get it. I remember when I opened HotS after they changed the leveling and I just asked myself when the fucking nightmare would end after opening like 50 boxes. In addition, while I might be reading this wrong, some chests from 1-30 are skewed towards champs but have the potential to drop skins or other cosmetics. Things we could never get with IP. Again, I might be misreading this.

You're also pitching this idea as being "in lieu" of the rune rewards we're doing, but I think that doing this idea instead of the rune rewards would be unfair to people who've spent the most on runes. The point of the runes rewards we're giving out isn't to "reward veterans" in a general sense; the point is to take care of people who spent IP on runes and give them a little back as a way of saying "thank you" for using a system that we're now changing. It's not even meant as a refund, because remember, we're just replacing the current system with a new and better one.

I understand where you're coming from with this but it does not feel like a "little back". While I'm fine with it and I don't really care too much about it, many players feel like they got spit in the face. 100/300 isn't even 10% of most rune costs and people feel like their investment was terribly wasted.(EDIT: I have been pointed out that it's roughly 25% and 15% refund, respectively. Still not very high.) They feel like things they could have spent towards fun and enjoyment, such as unlocking a new champ, was instead spent to make sure they wouldn't have a miserable time. It might sound like a tiny detail but spending to have fun vs. spending so you can have fun is a massive variance when you think about it.

Those things aside, **it seems to me that what you're really saying with this post is that Riot should do more to show that we care about veteran players. **If that's really what you're trying to get at, I'm with you. I'm not sure I agree that we should just haphazardly hand out skins to accounts just because they've played a game a couple of times per season (after all, that was never the deal when you made your account—you play games for fun and because you want to, not because we promised to give you skins for free). But I'm interested in hearing more about what y'all think we could do to better recognize veterans generally. Does it have to be just random piles of rewards, or is there some better ways we can give veterans to express their longstanding status?

Yes and no. Part of the reason why I also said that even recent players should get a reward is because this shouldn't be exclusive. The player base shouldn't be divided against the the guy who picked up league two weeks ago vs. the guy who had a beta code from the DOTA All-star forum. In my suggestion, I wanted to make sure EVERYONE got a reward. Hence why vets get a bonus.

Now, here is where we disagree: You misunderstand that I want players to be rewarded just for playing the game. League isn't a game you just play, it's a game that people invest time, money and more into. And you know, Riot doesn't always hit the mark. Some people dislike or outright hate certain changes or seasons. Sometimes a champ you loved gets reworked to be healthier. This isn't just rewarding players for playing; This is rewarding players who stuck with Riot and League regardless. Players who were there for, as I said in the OP, highs, lows and sideways. A reward for continued support. I didn't play league because I thought one day, seven-plus years later, I would get free cosmetics and have power over a little subsection of the boards, I played because I enjoyed it. It'd just be nice for Riot to acknowledge my (and many others) contributions to league, even if all we did was tell a friend about how much fun we had playing it.

And I'll concede: Yes, I'd love to have something to express my long-standing status as a vet. I'd gladly throw this entire suggestion away. That said...

• I don't think Riot should alienate new players entirely from a reward, even if it's a far less interesting skin.
• I don't think it should be up ENTIRELY to Riot to decide what the reward is. A good example is the Thunderdome project of this year with Riot working with players to create something amazing.
• I sadly worry that all of this might merely be talk to tide us over until it's nice and under the rug. Riot has been promising veteran acknolwedgement for years now. The reason so many are upset is that this is was a prime, perfect time to roll out rewards for veterans with what will essentally be the biggest change league has ever got. Instead, many are left disappointed.

Sorry for the long post. I'm just genuinely interested in digging into some of these nuances with you guys.

You've got nothing to be sorry for. Honestly, I'm glad you stopped by to talk because discussions like this are how things improve, rather than trying to wish death on all of Riot and how DOTA2 HotS Overwatch PUBG is so much better and has caring devs who listen to us.

[{quoted}](name=Riot Cactopus,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=8h0YpEWl,comment-id=0015,timestamp=2017-09-04T22:15:32.499+0000)

Ah hell... I guess I'll jump in here because I'm a little confused by the post and I want to understand y'all's perspective better.

One thing I'd like to understand is that it seems like this is a reaction to multiple changes: runes becoming free, the new leveling system, and a more general feeling that maybe Riot just doesn't show that we care enough about veteran players. You mentioned in the headline something about "30 chests," but we said we aren't going to do that because the new chests system is just a replacement for the IP you get after games now—you've already gotten the IP for all the games you've ever played, so there's no reward that veterans are missing out on as a direct result of the leveling system change. Does that make sense?

You're also pitching this idea as being "in lieu" of the rune rewards we're doing, but I think that doing this idea instead of the rune rewards would be unfair to people who've spent the most on runes. The point of the runes rewards we're giving out isn't to "reward veterans" in a general sense; the point is to take care of people who spent IP on runes and give them a little back as a way of saying "thank you" for using a system that we're now changing. It's not even meant as a refund, because remember, we're just replacing the current system with a new and better one.

Those things aside, **it seems to me that what you're really saying with this post is that Riot should do more to show that we care about veteran players. **If that's really what you're trying to get at, I'm with you. I'm not sure I agree that we should just haphazardly hand out skins to accounts just because they've played a game a couple of times per season (after all, that was never the deal when you made your account—you play games for fun and because you want to, not because we promised to give you skins for free). But I'm interested in hearing more about what y'all think we could do to better recognize veterans generally. Does it have to be just random piles of rewards, or is there some better ways we can give veterans to express their longstanding status?

Sorry for the long post. I'm just genuinely interested in digging into some of these nuances with you guys.

I'm amazed by your patience...

I'll start by saying that I mostly disagree with the negative sentiments expressed on the boards about all that pre-season stuff, so I'm just trying to interpret what other people said. Take it for what it's worth.

But from spending too much time on the boards and reading a LOT of various threads, I think that the biggest gripe against the current plan is that "newest players get it better", with the full refund for Runes bought that last season. Veterans who invested a lot in the game (time if not money) want to be treated at least as well as recently acquired players that may not stick with the game, and so they want the same full refund. If not more, to reward their fidelity.

(Again, I want to stress I personally disagree with that sentiment, but if you want to understand the dynamics down here, that's how I perceived it.)

[{quoted}](name=Riot Cactopus,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=8h0YpEWl,comment-id=0015,timestamp=2017-09-04T22:15:32.499+0000)

Ah hell... I guess I'll jump in here because I'm a little confused by the post and I want to understand y'all's perspective better.

One thing I'd like to understand is that it seems like this is a reaction to multiple changes: runes becoming free, the new leveling system, and a more general feeling that maybe Riot just doesn't show that we care enough about veteran players. You mentioned in the headline something about "30 chests," but we said we aren't going to do that because the new chests system is just a replacement for the IP you get after games now—you've already gotten the IP for all the games you've ever played, so there's no reward that veterans are missing out on as a direct result of the leveling system change. Does that make sense?

You're also pitching this idea as being "in lieu" of the rune rewards we're doing, but I think that doing this idea instead of the rune rewards would be unfair to people who've spent the most on runes. The point of the runes rewards we're giving out isn't to "reward veterans" in a general sense; the point is to take care of people who spent IP on runes and give them a little back as a way of saying "thank you" for using a system that we're now changing. It's not even meant as a refund, because remember, we're just replacing the current system with a new and better one.

Those things aside, **it seems to me that what you're really saying with this post is that Riot should do more to show that we care about veteran players. **If that's really what you're trying to get at, I'm with you. I'm not sure I agree that we should just haphazardly hand out skins to accounts just because they've played a game a couple of times per season (after all, that was never the deal when you made your account—you play games for fun and because you want to, not because we promised to give you skins for free). But I'm interested in hearing more about what y'all think we could do to better recognize veterans generally. Does it have to be just random piles of rewards, or is there some better ways we can give veterans to express their longstanding status?

Sorry for the long post. I'm just genuinely interested in digging into some of these nuances with you guys.

For me, it's most like... What do I even really do with the BE? I have most chromas (and the ones I don't have, I don't want), I've been around long enough to get skins like urkwick back when they were 1 RP, I have a ton of icons already... It's just like, what am I supposed to do with all the BE I get? It would be nice if there were some new rewards, not just a rehash of some stuff in the vault (besides just a few random icons).

[{quoted}](name=Riot Cactopus,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=8h0YpEWl,comment-id=0015,timestamp=2017-09-04T22:15:32.499+0000)

Ah hell... I guess I'll jump in here because I'm a little confused by the post and I want to understand y'all's perspective better.

One thing I'd like to understand is that it seems like this is a reaction to multiple changes: runes becoming free, the new leveling system, and a more general feeling that maybe Riot just doesn't show that we care enough about veteran players. You mentioned in the headline something about "30 chests," but we said we aren't going to do that because the new chests system is just a replacement for the IP you get after games now—you've already gotten the IP for all the games you've ever played, so there's no reward that veterans are missing out on as a direct result of the leveling system change. Does that make sense?

You're also pitching this idea as being "in lieu" of the rune rewards we're doing, but I think that doing this idea instead of the rune rewards would be unfair to people who've spent the most on runes. The point of the runes rewards we're giving out isn't to "reward veterans" in a general sense; the point is to take care of people who spent IP on runes and give them a little back as a way of saying "thank you" for using a system that we're now changing. It's not even meant as a refund, because remember, we're just replacing the current system with a new and better one.

Those things aside, **it seems to me that what you're really saying with this post is that Riot should do more to show that we care about veteran players. **If that's really what you're trying to get at, I'm with you. I'm not sure I agree that we should just haphazardly hand out skins to accounts just because they've played a game a couple of times per season (after all, that was never the deal when you made your account—you play games for fun and because you want to, not because we promised to give you skins for free). But I'm interested in hearing more about what y'all think we could do to better recognize veterans generally. Does it have to be just random piles of rewards, or is there some better ways we can give veterans to express their longstanding status?

Sorry for the long post. I'm just genuinely interested in digging into some of these nuances with you guys.

Really now?

That's funny, I thought I bought runes and rune pages because without doing so over the last 7 seasons, I couldn't be REMOTELY competitive, DEFINITELY couldn't even play my favorite role for the overwhelming majority of the those seasons (Jungle), and because some champions were outright balanced around expected rune setups.

You're right. I got my "use" out of Runes. A widely-agreed poorly-designed system that's essentially an entry fee to remotely standing a chance versus anyone who had them. Oh boy I'm so glad I used my IP on that instead of stuff that would actually give me enjoyment :^)

A full rune page, from buying a new page to filling it with tier 3 runes, could cost up to 34590 IP a few seasons ago: ((820 x 27) + (2050 x 3) + 6300)

If we assume an average of 30 minute games, and a 50/50 win/loss ratio, that means ~88IP per win, ~58IP per loss. So, the average of those two IP values being ~73 IP, that means filling out a rune page could cost up to 473.84 games for veteran players, without win-of-the-day.

That converts into ~237 hours of playtime. If we assume that every 24 hours, you get a win of the day bonus, that means 9.87 WotDs, or 1480 IP total. We should probably be generous and assume that the player takes many more days to get that playtime, so I've quintupled the amount of days that takes. So, approximately 7403.68 IP in WotD if we're being generous.

Subtract that from the total (34590 - 7404) to get 27186 IP for your full rune page. That drops our playtime to a "measly" 372.4 games, or 186 hours.

186 hours. 7.75 days of my life. Just to not get fucking stomped in almost every game I play against someone who already made that time investment.

That is for ONE rune page. Again, it is the most costly rune page possibility, but it really doesn't drop the number a whole lot to turn 1/3rd of those 820s into 410s. Drops the number by about 25 hours.

ONE rune page.

For probably a small handful of champions you play.

You pick a new champ that's in a different role? (since you have to know all 5 roles eventually), chances are you need a new page.

Some of us have 9 pages, all of which we use. All of which are filled with runes.

So, yeah, you're damn right that the new players getting full refunds while the veterans who have stuck through all the shit and literally given up weeks of time of our lives just to be at a baseline competitive level with our favorite champions are a little irritated.

This feels like Riot just doing lipservice to the players who've been around since forever. It feels like Riot forgetting they used to just be this random knockoff-of-a-mod nobody, and that they only got big in the first place because of veterans like us who stuck with them, supported them, bought their shit, told people about them, started clubs, sang their praises, and so on.

So yeah, I feel slapped in the face. I feel forgotten about. THAT'S why vets are pissed. Cuz we were there. And Riot doesn't seem to give a shit.

So you're right. You don't "owe" us anything. But that doesn't make it any less of a statement of "lol fuck the vets"

[{quoted}](name=Riot Cactopus,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=8h0YpEWl,comment-id=0015,timestamp=2017-09-04T22:15:32.499+0000)

Sorry for the long post. I'm just genuinely interested in digging into some of these nuances with you guys.

There is a lot I wish to say, but since you it looks like your genuinely looking for feedback, there is only one point I would like to touch up on.

You're also pitching this idea as being "in lieu" of the rune rewards we're doing, but I think that doing this idea instead of the rune rewards would be unfair to people who've spent the most on runes.

I honestly think, that decision should be left up to the players. Not saying you don't have a point, or you shouldn't/cant decide things for yourself. But I think what the op was saying would work nicely. I only speak for myself when I say this, but I feel as though most would rather prefer a tier system reward based on total ip spent on rune,s rather than a miniscule refund that feels lesser in all ways and harder to justify/implement. ( all though I know many others who would glady take the 40% refund rate, but that's another issue all together )

The point of the runes rewards we're giving out isn't to "reward veterans" in a general sense; the point is to take care of people who spent IP on runes and give them a little back as a way of saying "thank you" for using a system that we're now changing.

I agree that the runes rewards shouldn't be just for long lasting players, however I think the op has a point. BE is far less enticing since by default, you have to put a limit on how much you can give. One of the biggest issues with "BE" being given away, is that its not "equal" across the total of runes spent. Not all runes are priced the same, and I can imagine why you didnt bother too since you and other rioters have said it would hurt you just to give away lots of "BE" or track that amount of data. So at this point, without some rare novelty skin ( which is crazy just to do for runes ), I do think gemstones/ or things equivalent are the best way to go. Another person recommend turning BE gained from runes spent, into Orange essesnce, which I also think has a lot more functionality than BE. ( even if the rates for that far were lower ). So I even if I don't agree with the op's full veteran chest, I think the idea is a step in the right direction for a lot of the newer changes.

It's not even meant as a refund, because remember, we're just replacing the current system with a new and better one.

And finally, I think this is what a lot of people are upset about. There is a lot of defense saying " riot doesn't have to refund you" and yes, that is right. Riot as a whole doesn't have to do anything for its players. But the reason why people feel frustrated with that statement, its because it feels like they were conned into a system that had no real benefit in the long run. Using them in games didn't yield a insanely higher win rate. In fact, it felt like ip was being sunk into a system that barely made .3% of a difference. So when the return rate is not noticeable in game, it leads to a lot of players feeling frustrated that basically all there hard work and time into the system was a waste. Yes there are the occasional season 1 vets that really just did it for the luls. But they don't speak for everyone, and I just wanted to offer a different view point

Those are just my few cents on the matter

[{quoted}](name=Riot Cactopus,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=8h0YpEWl,comment-id=0015,timestamp=2017-09-04T22:15:32.499+0000)

The point of the runes rewards we're giving out isn't to "reward veterans" in a general sense; the point is to take care of people who spent IP on runes and give them a little back as a way of saying "thank you" for using a system that we're now changing. It's not even meant as a refund, because remember, we're just replacing the current system with a new and better one.

—you play games for fun and because you want to, not because we promised to give you skins for free

These two go ideas hand in hand - none of us blew our IP on your old rune system because we liked it, because it was fun, or we wanted to. We did it so that we weren't literally throwing games due to not being up to par. There was never any choice in the matter, and we dumped a significant amount of IP (i.e: the opportunity cost of buying champions, more recently, chromas, or on a very basic level, time) into it.

Now, you guys intend to replace the system, which is fine. Then you intend to flush that forced investment down the toilet, which is not fine. Not even a little bit. I certainly hope that makes sense, because I'm not the first person to describe this on the boards, and somebody that's monitoring this stuff has to understand. While the players who have the most ridiculous time spent on the game certainly have hundreds of thousands of IP just laying around while owning everything -many popular streamers fall into this category because playing is their day job- undoubtedly many of your veterans don't fall into that category. That IP still has significant value.

Those things aside, **it seems to me that what you're really saying with this post is that Riot should do more to show that we care about veteran players.

We're saying don't throw us under the bus like you're planning to. And for the record, some ridiculous platitude like an icon or a ward skin in no way holds the same weight as what you guys intend to take away, so expect a lot of ill will should such a suggestion come from Riot.

If you take nothing else away from my post, consider this: We're the players that supported you guys when the company was just 30 people struggling to even keep the servers up. When Riot was struggling to expand, and to build a pro scene, we spread the game to millions. We don't want to regret ever having done so.

[{quoted}](name=Riot Cactopus,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=8h0YpEWl,comment-id=0015,timestamp=2017-09-04T22:15:32.499+0000)

But I'm interested in hearing more about what y'all think we could do to better recognize veterans generally. Does it have to be just random piles of rewards, or is there some better ways we can give veterans to express their longstanding status?

http://i.imgur.com/rZj8X7s.png

Well, you guys could start here. You said 40%, and put yourselves in the pickle on this one. Now players have to beg for the 40% that you put out?

How can you pretend to care about veteran players or their needs when you're lowballing your own original lowball compensation?

You said in a different post that the BE shop could potentially return once or twice a year. Will each reappearance of the shop come with a new "limited time only 150k BE skin!"? If so, the lowballing could end up having a bigger impact, even for the largest of ip hoarders. I personally don't really care that much, but you guys should never have let that "40%" go public, unless you were going to use that as an absolute minimum.

Last question. If I give you all of my ip, BE, WW skins, part of my soul, and pretend that I never saw your projected 40% return, can you make URF a permanent game mode OR setup a permanent monthly rotation of URF, AR URF, One For All, and Hexakill? All this veteran wants are some fun stress free game modes to play with friends, so that I don't have to be stuck complaining on the forums.