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Riot, please talk to us about Eternals, please show you're hearing our criticism.

Jakra··97 votes·18,839 views

I dislike the paywall on Eternals just as much as anyone, but I'm getting worried at how much silence there is from Riot on the situation.

If this gets shipped, I at least want to know how you're justifying a pay wall on something you've been able to do for the past few years and only now, have decided that there should be a premium.

https://imgur.com/25EvZVf

^ This is circulating around Reddit, we get end of year reports that tells us how many times we've used an ability on specific champions, have several websites that tracks a player's average KDA (albeit, not owned by Riot, but its something they allow to happen) and you even track our best grade with each champion.

There are so many things that we'd be more than happy to have a paywall:

  • Custom Announcer Packs
  • Minion, Environment & HUD Skins
  • Different Musical Soundtracks
  • Dragon & Baron Skins
  • Kill Animations (Think the ones that required a specific icon, but done without them this time)
  • Novelty Loading Screen Borders (Maybe)

I'm struggling to see how this could've taken so long to put together when you already had all the pieces, you just needed to put them together. You're making so much money and you employ so many talented people. We just need answers, why should we pay for this?

54 Comments

ModCaptainMårvelous11 votes

Well, depending on how pessimistic/optimistic you are, there are a few ways to view this:

  • Optimistic view is that they've actually gotten enough feedback and will roll back the price. Best case scenario Season 1 Eternals are free with Season 2 being heavily discounted from previous initial prices. I doubt the system will ever 100% be free but at the very least maybe it'll be chump change at best and something totally avoidable and/or free for certain things.

  • Pessimistic view is that nothing changes. Alternatively, they knew this backlash would happen and planned on having this. That way they can go "We hear you so we reduced the price cuz we hear you guys out" with the new price being the "original" plan. But because we got a crazy price first we're more readily accepting of a reduced price.

TyJRamos3 votes

{quoted}

Well, depending on how pessimistic/optimistic you are, there are a few ways to view this:

  • Optimistic view is that they've actually gotten enough feedback and will roll back the price. Best case scenario Season 1 Eternals are free with Season 2 being heavily discounted from previous initial prices. I doubt the system will ever 100% be free but at the very least maybe it'll be chump change at best and something totally avoidable and/or free for certain things.

  • Pessimistic view is that nothing changes. Alternatively, they knew this backlash would happen and planned on having this. That way they can go "We hear you so we reduced the price cuz we hear you guys out" with the new price being the "original" plan. But because we got a crazy price first we're more readily accepting of a reduced price.

I wouldn't be surprised at all that the pessimistic view is right. "Hehe see we listen! We'll reduce the price" reduces it to orginal price target Ruijia: "see my overlords are amazing!!!"

rujitra7 votes

They did justify it by referencing multiple other games that have similar features in their /dev post.

I think the biggest reason there has not been a direct response to the criticism here is for a couple reasons. First of all, none of this is constructive criticism - people here are ignoring perfectly valid opinions/points and just raging for the most part. Secondly, the people here are a vocal minority - they are not representative of the community as a whole's opinion on this issue.

Makarakarn29 votes

{quoted}

They did justify it by referencing multiple other games that have similar features in their /dev post.

I think the biggest reason there has not been a direct response to the criticism here is for a couple reasons. First of all, none of this is constructive criticism - people here are ignoring perfectly valid opinions/points and just raging for the most part. Secondly, the people here are a vocal minority - they are not representative of the community as a whole's opinion on this issue.

The problem is that people are thinking about it wrong. This isn't "A way to track your progress". It's not new mastery levels. It's purely a way to flex. I like the reference to Stat trak as an example because it's the same thing. It's literally just a cosmetic way to flex on people, not a personal achievement system.

Galliard1 votes

{quoted}

The problem is that people are thinking about it wrong. This isn't "A way to track your progress". It's not new mastery levels. It's purely a way to flex. I like the reference to Stat trak as an example because it's the same thing. It's literally just a cosmetic way to flex on people, not a personal achievement system.

Is there anything wrong with that though? Because yeah its basically just stat trak, is there any problem with something like that being added to the game?

Makarakarn1 votes

{quoted}

Is there anything wrong with that though? Because yeah its basically just stat trak, is there any problem with something like that being added to the game?

no, not really.

CaptainAntiHeroz2 votes

{quoted}

Is there anything wrong with that though? Because yeah its basically just stat trak, is there any problem with something like that being added to the game?

Yeah, its called "I basically have to pay for OP.GG to be IN GAME" Total waste of money

Garen is adopted1 votes

{quoted}

The problem is that people are thinking about it wrong. This isn't "A way to track your progress". It's not new mastery levels. It's purely a way to flex. I like the reference to Stat trak as an example because it's the same thing. It's literally just a cosmetic way to flex on people, not a personal achievement system.

its not even a good way to flex, all it does is to bring some lights on your alerdy existing mastery level, if there would be a new cool one that looks completly baddass, like the icons Eternals show themsleves, or even those eternals as separate emotes, I would completly like it, and probably buy the trickest one cause it looks neat, but I'm not gonna pay 10$ for 2 pixels of blue color or red/violet.

Eybdoog31 votes

{quoted}

They did justify it by referencing multiple other games that have similar features in their /dev post.

I think the biggest reason there has not been a direct response to the criticism here is for a couple reasons. First of all, none of this is constructive criticism - people here are ignoring perfectly valid opinions/points and just raging for the most part. Secondly, the people here are a vocal minority - they are not representative of the community as a whole's opinion on this issue.

I disagree. I’ve met far fewer people who think Eternals are good than people who think this is the last straw on a dead game.

Jakra8 votes

{quoted}

I disagree. I’ve met far fewer people who think Eternals are good than people who think this is the last straw on a dead game.

Why are we conflating Eternals with League being a dying game? League isn't even close to dead.

rujitra4 votes

{quoted}

I disagree. I’ve met far fewer people who think Eternals are good than people who think this is the last straw on a dead game.

And you have conducted a statistical analysis to ensure that the "people" you've "met" are a statistically representative population?

No? You haven't? Then you can't say that the entire community thinks that way. Your data is as good as dirt if you aren't actually doing anything to ensure it's good data.

AIQ23 votes

{quoted}

They did justify it by referencing multiple other games that have similar features in their /dev post.

I think the biggest reason there has not been a direct response to the criticism here is for a couple reasons. First of all, none of this is constructive criticism - people here are ignoring perfectly valid opinions/points and just raging for the most part. Secondly, the people here are a vocal minority - they are not representative of the community as a whole's opinion on this issue.

I'd have to say these are not justified, while yes a lot of it is non constructive. People pour their hearts out all the time posting facinating and amzaing things, just to be ignored entirely by Riot. In this particular circusatnce with eternals, many well thought out and contructive feed back exist along side the pile of garbage post.

Improvements I've heard are better missions, changing it to an achievement system, giving a Chroma/Icon/border instead. Reducing the price to something more reasonable and more.

People also are under the impression that it's the paywall only. For me it's really not, it's what I'm getting for my 850 RP. None of that is of any value to a lot of players, and I don't think Riot thinks it's of value as well.

A Kill tracker really? You can look at almost any web site and multiply your average by your games and boom Kill tracker. The only reason Websites like op.gg don't have them is because THEY even know how useless that is.

What good is having an emote for my emote when it doesn't upgrade the only one, on top of that what did I do to earn it? I paid for that little flair, what would you respect more?

A D3 Shyvana main with 1.5 million mastery or a Gold 4 Shyvana main with 150,000 mastery and an extra flair on that emote?

The eternals do not deliver anything more substantial then the system we have in place does, but we are not paying for the old system and paying for this new one?

Now what if I paid 850 RP to access achievements for Shyvana like...

Horder: Earn 20k gold 5 times. Fury of the Dragon: Take 5 dragons in a single game. Unstoppable!: Block 1 minute worth of CC with Dragons decent.

Then I earn a golden Chroma for that accomplishment and I walk into your game, with out looking me up you already know that Shvyana means business. You got a sexy Chroma instead of a Statue you'll never see. And the missions mean something more than you just playing your main over and over again. It means you DID something.

As far as being the minority goes, I've looked everywhere I can and asked people in game. People that are okay with it honestly are usually trolls, or don't understand fully all that they are getting. After explaining it to them and something it could potentially be few remain on that side. Riot has a few means of communication so it's had o get a voice out, but it's not just these toxic boards that are saying it.

rujitra1 votes

{quoted}

I'd have to say these are not justified, while yes a lot of it is non constructive. People pour their hearts out all the time posting facinating and amzaing things, just to be ignored entirely by Riot. In this particular circusatnce with eternals, many well thought out and contructive feed back exist along side the pile of garbage post.

Pouring your heart out does not immediately equate to having valid or logical arguments that merit a Riot response. You can spend 30 minutes typing a long rant to Riot but it have literally no useful information.

Improvements I've heard are better missions, changing it to an achievement system, giving a Chroma/Icon/border instead. Reducing the price to something more reasonable and more.

Unfortunately the problem is that these reasonable suggestions are but one sentence in a thread filled with a bunch of BS, and that one thread is just one thread in the sea of BS rant threads.

A Kill tracker really? You can look at almost any web site and multiply your average by your games and boom Kill tracker. The only reason Websites like op.gg don't have them is because THEY even know how useless that is.

It's not just a kill tracker though.

What good is having an emote for my emote when it doesn't upgrade the only one, on top of that what did I do to earn it? I paid for that little flair, what would you respect more?

The eternals do not deliver anything more substantial then the system we have in place does, but we are not paying for the old system and paying for this new one?

They do though. There are brand new stats being tracked that were not tracked before and that have had to be bug tested and ensured to be stable.

Now what if I paid 850 RP to access achievements for Shyvana like...

Horder: Earn 20k gold 5 times. Fury of the Dragon: Take 5 dragons in a single game. Unstoppable!: Block 1 minute worth of CC with Dragons decent.

Then I earn a golden Chroma for that accomplishment and I walk into your game, with out looking me up you already know that Shvyana means business. You got a sexy Chroma instead of a Statue you'll never see. And the missions mean something more than you just playing your main over and over again. It means you DID something.

So... your missions are things that are already tracked (well, CC time not really because that's ability specific, but that's no different than many of the Eternals for champions that have been made). The issue you have is that you want an extra reward in a chroma. Your issue isn't with the idea, but that you think they should change the rewards

As far as being the minority goes, I've looked everywhere I can and asked people in game. People that are okay with it honestly are usually trolls, or don't understand fully all that they are getting. After explaining it to them and something it could potentially be few remain on that side. Riot has a few means of communication so it's had o get a voice out, but it's not just these toxic boards that are saying it.

I think it's very dangerous you are calling "people that are okay with it" to just be "trolls". You are falling into this ad hominem attack on people you disagree with instead of accepting that people will disagree. In fact, I can say I've had the exact opposite experience - the vast majority (if not all) of my friends think this outrage is people who are trolling - they simply refuse to accept that some people will like and buy these things and want to be given everything for free.

AIQ15 votes

Pouring your heart out does not immediately equate to having valid or logical arguments that merit a Riot response. You can spend 30 minutes typing a long rant to Riot but it have literally no useful information.

True some don't have substance, but you know what I mean so let's move on.

Unfortunately the problem is that these reasonable suggestions are but one sentence in a thread filled with a bunch of BS, and that one thread is just one thread in the sea of BS rant threads.

True, but that's an entirely different issue. I hate the fact that I'll look at post and say "Why are you posting this crap?" Someone was literally complaining that Pantheon was not OP like Akali and Irelia so he'll be forgotten. I said nothing, but I wanted to say so badly. "Did you want him busted?" So yes plenty of people here make trash post, but currently I think enough good ones are out there that Riot has a high chance (and probably already has) stumbled on some for the eternals issue.

It's not just a kill tracker though.

I was minimizing it, currently Shyvanas eternals are Landed Rs, Kill tracker and Damage tracker. 2 of which can be found in OP.gg for free. The point was that these trackers are mundane in nature.

They do though. There are brand new stats being tracked that were not tracked before and that have had to be bug tested and ensured to be stable.

Shyvana only has 1 unique stat being tracked and I'd have to say... as a man that loves Shyvana, has a poster of her on his wall, on his phone, named his car and has a ring with her Ice drake skin. This is possibly the stupidest unique thing to track.

So... your missions are things that are already tracked (well, CC time not really because that's ability specific, but that's no different than many of the Eternals for champions that have been made). The issue you have is that you want an extra reward in a chroma. Your issue isn't with the idea, but that you think they should change the rewards

Yes Primarily it's the rewards that are my issue, but while Dragons taken are tracked it's not a tracker it's a mission. You need to slay all 5 in a single game. That's not easy. Earning 20k gold in 1 game is not easy on Shyvana. I can't even recall my last 20k game. The difficulty adds prestige not the tracking.

I think it's very dangerous you are calling "people that are okay with it" to just be "trolls". You are falling into this ad hominem attack on people you disagree with instead of accepting that people will disagree. In fact, I can say I've had the exact opposite experience - the vast majority (if not all) of my friends think this outrage is people who are trolling - they simply refuse to accept that some people will like and buy these things and want to be given everything for free.

Apologies I didn't make that clear, I should have said. "Some of the people that agreed it was a good idea were trolling and did not actually like it." It was not a matter of "You disagree? You are a troll." That was not my stance.

rujitra1 votes

{quoted}

So yes plenty of people here make trash post, but currently I think enough good ones are out there that Riot has a high chance (and probably already has) stumbled on some for the eternals issue.

Why should Riot have to spend the time sifting through a bunch of crap just to respond to the one person?

I was minimizing it, currently Shyvanas eternals are Landed Rs, Kill tracker and Damage tracker. 2 of which can be found in OP.gg for free. The point was that these trackers are mundane in nature.

Yet, your suggested trackers are exactly the same as this.

Shyvana only has 1 unique stat being tracked and I'd have to say... as a man that loves Shyvana, has a poster of her on his wall, on his phone, named his car and has a ring with her Ice drake skin. This is possibly the stupidest unique thing to track.

... That's your opinion, which you're entitled to.

In fact, I can say I've had the exact opposite experience - the vast majority (if not all) of my friends think this outrage is people who are trolling - they simply refuse to accept that some people will like and buy these things and want to be given everything for free.

Apologies I didn't make that clear, I should have said. "Some of the people that agreed it was a good idea were trolling and did not actually like it." It was not a matter of "You disagree? You are a troll." That was not my stance.

I think dismissing people as "trolls" when you have no evidence of this is very dangerous. It is improper to assume anyone is "trolling" when they state their opinion.

AIQ13 votes

{quoted}

Why should Riot have to spend the time sifting through a bunch of crap just to respond to the one person?

Well, honestly I can't answer that. I don't know what they do at Riot, but with all this negativity, I'd take some time out to sift through some of it, but that's me. Everyone is different. Riot is probably just working on a formal dev post instead of replying on the boards.

Yet, your suggested trackers are exactly the same as this.

Again what I'm suggesting are not trackers they are missions. Hard ones too. You are achieving something not tracking it. Let the trackers die for all I care I can see it on OP.gg.

... That's your opinion, which you're entitled to.

Okay

I think dismissing people as "trolls" when you have no evidence of this is very dangerous. It is improper to assume anyone is "trolling" when they state their opinion.

...I starting to think you are trolling me here... I just said that it was not due to their opinion, but them jokingly saying things like "THaT$ a grEAt IdEA!!!$$!!" does not indicate they are being genuine especially when 10 lines later they say "no it's stupid."

ablindleader14 votes

{quoted}

Why should Riot have to spend the time sifting through a bunch of crap just to respond to the one person?

Yet, your suggested trackers are exactly the same as this.

... That's your opinion, which you're entitled to.

I think dismissing people as "trolls" when you have no evidence of this is very dangerous. It is improper to assume anyone is "trolling" when they state their opinion.

This guy is a permanent mouthpiece for riot, honestly better to ignore him, given he only sides with riot.

Camille Ferrøs4 votes

As if there was ever a direct response when they do clownery

Oleandervine11 votes

{quoted}

They did justify it by referencing multiple other games that have similar features in their /dev post.

Let me try this justification you're talking about. Let's say I'm Riot.

"Hey, we're going to add buffs to the game that you can buy to give you an edge when you play against other players - but they'll only be in lootboxes. You see, we saw that Star Wars Battlefront did this, so we thought it was a great idea!"

"We're going to be adding a new set of items to the game, but you'll have to use RP to unlock them for you to be able to buy them in game. You see, we see how all these games have shops where you can buy cool weapons that were super OP, so we thought we'd add it in."

It's not justification to cite other companies that do this shit. I can cite EA up and down and implement things they do in a game I make, but that doesn't make what I do justified just because EA Games is doing it. It just makes me a copycat of unpopular products that were implemented by a greedy company. Just because Riot says that other companies have done this DOES NOT MAKE IT A GOOD OR SENSIBLE THING TO DO. A shitty, unpopular thing done by another company that you copy is still a shitty, unpopular thing.

I think the biggest reason there has not been a direct response to the criticism here is for a couple reasons. First of all, none of this is constructive criticism - people here are ignoring perfectly valid opinions/points and just raging for the most part. Secondly, the people here are a vocal minority - they are not representative of the community as a whole's opinion on this issue.

There's plenty of constructive criticism, but yes, it is buried under a lot - and I mean A LOT - of negative feedback. The sheer magnitude of the negative feedback to these Eternals should have been an immediate bomb raid siren alarm for Riot. Whether or not there is enough constructive criticism or not, the negative reaction that people have shown to this has been cataclysmic. Not even the kickback to Prestige Points was this terrible, and there was a lot of anger about that too which resulted in a fairly large reconstruction of their format for presenting and working with Prestige Points. So yeah, it doesn't even matter where the constructive feedback is, these Eternals have turned into a massive PR nightmare. They're a terrible product, and people have held the mirror to Riot on this, and something has to change. They're consistently losing the faith of their playerbase, and massive product bombs like this will only send people away and further tarnish and already rusting façade that Riot has with the gamers.

floo2 votes

{quoted}

They did justify it by referencing multiple other games that have similar features in their /dev post.

I think the biggest reason there has not been a direct response to the criticism here is for a couple reasons. First of all, none of this is constructive criticism - people here are ignoring perfectly valid opinions/points and just raging for the most part. Secondly, the people here are a vocal minority - they are not representative of the community as a whole's opinion on this issue.

They compare a stat tracking system to something that can cost you 0.20€ - multiple 1000€. Csgo stattrack is not comparable. The basic achievements are already given from Steam.

Teriyaki Bukkake7 votes

BRUH

Did you just try and say that making people pay for stat tracking is justified? And that no one here has said anything constructive?

UHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Arcflare5 votes

{quoted}

They did justify it by referencing multiple other games that have similar features in their /dev post.

I think the biggest reason there has not been a direct response to the criticism here is for a couple reasons. First of all, none of this is constructive criticism - people here are ignoring perfectly valid opinions/points and just raging for the most part. Secondly, the people here are a vocal minority - they are not representative of the community as a whole's opinion on this issue.

I find it hilarious that them reference other games which also do this shit is an actual defense for you. Anyone with half a brain knows that stat trackers have been a standard and common feature for decades at this point. Suddenly putting it behind a paywall is not justifiable in any way shape or form. The fact youre going around to every post and defending this trash is honestly disgusting to see.

General Esdeath 5 votes

{quoted}

They did justify it by referencing multiple other games that have similar features in their /dev post.

"Well since 4 other countries are deporting minorities I guess it's OK to do it too!" Solid logic, others do it so I can do it too.

Secondly, the people here are a vocal minority - they are not representative of the community as a whole's opinion on this issue.

This is my favorite type of comment, because it just ignores statistics as a whole. Do you know what a sample size is? If I take 100 people from Diamond and ask them questions about how they feel about the balance of mid lane, they're a sample. Are they a minority? Yes, especially if we consider all regions and all SR queues. But a sample IS SUPPOSED TO BE a minority, otherwise you're doing a population study. If the boards is a minority, and ~90% of people don't like something, chances are, 80%-95% of your total playerbase doesn't like it either.

rujitra1 votes

[{quoted}](name=General Esdeath ,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2rWf2N6O,comment-id=00000008,timestamp=2019-08-16T04:54:15.628+0000)

"Well since 4 other countries are deporting minorities I guess it's OK to do it too!" Solid logic, others do it so I can do it too.

This is my favorite type of comment, because it just ignores statistics as a whole. Do you know what a sample size is? If I take 100 people from Diamond and ask them questions about how they feel about the balance of mid lane, they're a sample. Are they a minority? Yes, especially if we consider all regions and all SR queues. But a sample IS SUPPOSED TO BE a minority, otherwise you're doing a population study. If the boards is a minority, and ~90% of people don't like something, chances are, 80%-95% of your total playerbase doesn't like it either.

Taking a sample with nothing to show that it is representative doesn't show anything.

General Esdeath 2 votes

{quoted}

Taking a sample with nothing to show that it is representative doesn't show anything.

Well gee let's see, the boards shows the player profiles, so we can get even MORE data out of it. Riot can also see how many people post on the boards, possibly view too, and compare it to the total number of players. So no, Riot can EASILY see how it relates. They just choose not to.

rujitra2 votes

[{quoted}](name=General Esdeath ,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2rWf2N6O,comment-id=0000000800000000,timestamp=2019-08-16T05:49:43.126+0000)

Well gee let's see, the boards shows the player profiles, so we can get even MORE data out of it. Riot can also see how many people post on the boards, possibly view too, and compare it to the total number of players. So no, Riot can EASILY see how it relates. They just choose not to.

Message boards have been proven in multiple large scale scientific studies to be very far from representative samples of a community.

Let's say this. I start a message board with 100 players on it. I find the 100 players who think Anivia needs a rework tomorrow. If you look at the message board, you'll see 100% of the community thinks that. Let's say the rank of the players on this board matches the rank distribution of players overall.

It still proves nothing other than that 100 players think that. These are not random players. They were not randomly selected. In fact, there is a large bias towards negative attitudes on a message board, as those most tempted or inclined to use it will be those with the strongest opinions. The millions of players who think nothing is wrong have no reason to come here and say that, thus they don't.

General Esdeath 4 votes

{quoted}

Message boards have been proven in multiple large scale scientific studies to be very far from representative samples of a community.

Let's say this. I start a message board with 100 players on it. I find the 100 players who think Anivia needs a rework tomorrow. If you look at the message board, you'll see 100% of the community thinks that. Let's say the rank of the players on this board matches the rank distribution of players overall.

It still proves nothing other than that 100 players think that. These are not random players. They were not randomly selected. In fact, there is a large bias towards negative attitudes on a message board, as those most tempted or inclined to use it will be those with the strongest opinions. The millions of players who think nothing is wrong have no reason to come here and say that, thus they don't.

Except it's not 100 players picked for their beliefs, it's an open forum open to anyone and everyone. The topic here is the game, not something specific like r/talonmains or "player behavior" boards.

rujitra1 votes

[deleted]

General Esdeath 2 votes

{quoted}

It being open to all does not make it a representative sample.

God I thought basic statistics was being taught in school. Please actually try to research this and learn it.

You're speaking to someone who took statistics in high school and college. Do you know how US population samples are taken when not using a census? Applications or consent to personal data.

3TWarrior2 votes

{quoted}

Message boards have been proven in multiple large scale scientific studies to be very far from representative samples of a community.

Let's say this. I start a message board with 100 players on it. I find the 100 players who think Anivia needs a rework tomorrow. If you look at the message board, you'll see 100% of the community thinks that. Let's say the rank of the players on this board matches the rank distribution of players overall.

It still proves nothing other than that 100 players think that. These are not random players. They were not randomly selected. In fact, there is a large bias towards negative attitudes on a message board, as those most tempted or inclined to use it will be those with the strongest opinions. The millions of players who think nothing is wrong have no reason to come here and say that, thus they don't.

first, in your example, you quite literally created the sample group by filtering out differing opinions to get people that agreed with you

second, in the past, Riot has conducted biased and improper studies with loaded questions such as, "do you think champion X rework is good?" yes, it's good but it offers no room for feedback and should offer multiple questions or checklists to at least address problem areas (something which can be easily done within a digital survey and with enough time put into it)

third, Riot BARELY acknowledges that the boards even exist and has shown to favor Reddit if they even bother looking into criticism. Riot hid the forums behind a link called "community." A majority of players NOT coming to the boards does not mean that everything is magically okay when factors such as: not having enough time, figuring someone else has complained already, just not wanting to bother with the trouble, thinking that Riot will fix the problems on its own, or any other personal excuse can easily justify not coming to the boards or Reddit

Using the THIRD as a justification is literally the "appeal to ignorance fallacy" , where because it can not be proven immediately, it must prove the counter-point, EXAMPLE: the majority of the community does not complain on the boards, therefor, the game must be fine

or "the majority of the boards does complain, therefor the game must NOT be fine"

you can even say, "the minority of boards posts are positive, therefor, the game must NOT be fine"

#but what we do have are large amounts of CRITICISM, complaints and negative attitudes IN ATTEMPTS TO MAKE THE GAME BETTER

most people who care about the game can filter out bad complaints or adjust in some way to make it feel as though their concerns are being acknowledged and addressed, even if it is a solution that they might not like

ProExpertKing2 votes

First of all, none of this is constructive criticism - people here are ignoring perfectly valid opinions/points and just raging for the most part.

This is a tu quoque and a missed point fallacy. Got a two for one here. This isn't about anyone in the community, this is about how people feel Eternals is a line to far where people on the forums feel ignored and that issue is getting only more and more prevalent with how now Rioters completely ignore certain boards and rely on volunteers to wade through everything instead of finding meaningful conversations every now and again and encouraging the people who do behave well as opposed to those who just make toxic posts. Now when anyone is angry, it's considered "toxic" but this is actually a toxic mindset that divides the community and creates arguments rather than discussions.

And you have conducted a statistical analysis to ensure that the "people" you've "met" are a statistically representative population?

Another tu quoque. Doesn't matter what anyone else does, if you make a picture that I commissioned and I say the lines look a bit sloppy when you send me the lineart to be approved, if you tell me that I should've drawn it myself, I was ask for my money back because you're an asshole. Other people conducting surveys is not what's up for discussion. Your post was irrelevant and clear to see with malice intent on it so people called you out on it.

Pouring your heart out does not immediately equate to having valid or logical arguments that merit a Riot response

Criticism is still criticism, it doesn't matter what a person does, and also when there is a pretty large backlash about a feature of a game from the playerbase themselves, that normally warrants some type of response. Even if it's an utter bs one like "We'll take it into consideration" or "We'll just put it out on one server and if we get enough adopters, we will bring it to all servers". It can easily be not what people want to hear but a sudden and large backlash normally warrants a response, just like when they removed the legacy cursor.

Unfortunately the problem is that these reasonable suggestions are but one sentence in a thread filled with a bunch of BS, and that one thread is just one thread in the sea of BS rant threads.

This is a straw man with no relation to this thread or the current conversation

It's not just a kill tracker though.

It mostly just tracks 3 things. Braum is the only example I know off the top of my head but for him it was CC length, amount of stuns with passive, and takedowns meaning kills + assists So really it's just a kill tracker.

Why should Riot have to spend the time sifting through a bunch of crap just to respond to the one person?

It's really not that hard to wade through a couple forums every now and again, especially when a big new feature is coming out, and also it's really easy to pick out most trolly and hateful posts from legitimate normal ones. Stuff like profanity, direct insults, and sarcasm are all good indicators that a post should be avoided. This post is an example of a good one. No insults in the title or body, no profanty, no sarcasm, nothing could be taken as belittling or offensive, it's just someone saying they are unhappy and things that they would prefer. Also it's not like they only have to say one thing, they could join the discussion if they really want to, we won't tell them to leave and the people who do will probably get downvoted to hell so their response can't be seen.

they simply refuse to accept that some people will like and buy these things and want to be given everything for free.

Well you see, many people with me included see this as gouging your playerbase for money. Of course they can start making a league a subscription base game and an additional one if you want to play ranked and then an ADDITIONAL pay wall if you want ranked rewards. They are totally legally able to do that and people would be fine with it. I know myself and a lot of this community won't stand that and because we live in a mostly open market, we'll just go and play some competitors MOBA or just forget MOBAs entirely because clearly League wouldn't be worth our time or money. You may think this is just me going to a far extreme but it's what I have to do to tell you that for me, we're already hitting the extreme of what I'm willing to put up with and I'm just about at my breaking point before I go and find anything else to do and spend my money on. Riot has been taking features from other free to play games and putting them behind a paywall for only a select few to actually access which mostly splits the playerbase into those who have money and those who don't. Eternals is a short term and short sighted profit nab that will segment the community more, make those without wallets leave, make those who can easily afford this stuff support bad behavior, and ultimately drive the priorities of the game from making it enjoyable and something that people want to spent money on, even it's only 10 dollars a year, into something that's just a cash sink for the rich and those who are bad with money who accidental ruin themselves. I would be fine if any special Eternal flairs would be paywalled but not the feature itself.

Message boards have been proven in multiple large scale scientific studies to be very far from representative samples of a community

Gonna need some evidence for that claim since you're so keen to jump on other people about lacking evidence.

God I thought basic statistics was being taught in school. Please actually try to research this and learn it.

If you have to punch down at someone instead of tackling what they said to you, that makes your argument look weak and yourself, sensitive. Calm down. Take a breather. No one is sending the FBI to raid your house. You say do research but yet show no evidence to support your claims. You also need to understand that there are loads and loads of people supporting posts like both here and on the forums and the original posts about Eternals so it's not like it's really just a vocal minority. It would be quite difficult to get a larger scale sample that isn't biased due to most people on forums tend to crusade against things they don't like when the discussion gets really heated but we could possibly get riot to make a client side poll like they've done before to possibly see some type of result. It's unlikely though because talking to riot as a company is impossible and it's hard to find out who actually does what even though it's easy to find who works there and just talk to them on twitter.

Honestly your first response would have served much better if it at all was actually relevant to the post in question. There are plenty of people who made a post where they just said "Fuck riot" but this wasn't one of them why you needed to state "First of all, none of this is constructive criticism" because it's blatantly wrong and ignorant of what the OP even said.

AngusBull2 votes

{quoted}

This is a tu quoque and a missed point fallacy. Got a two for one here. This isn't about anyone in the community, this is about how people feel Eternals is a line to far where people on the forums feel ignored and that issue is getting only more and more prevalent with how now Rioters completely ignore certain boards and rely on volunteers to wade through everything instead of finding meaningful conversations every now and again and encouraging the people who do behave well as opposed to those who just make toxic posts. Now when anyone is angry, it's considered "toxic" but this is actually a toxic mindset that divides the community and creates arguments rather than discussions.

Another tu quoque. Doesn't matter what anyone else does, if you make a picture that I commissioned and I say the lines look a bit sloppy when you send me the lineart to be approved, if you tell me that I should've drawn it myself, I was ask for my money back because you're an asshole. Other people conducting surveys is not what's up for discussion. Your post was irrelevant and clear to see with malice intent on it so people called you out on it.

Criticism is still criticism, it doesn't matter what a person does, and also when there is a pretty large backlash about a feature of a game from the playerbase themselves, that normally warrants some type of response. Even if it's an utter bs one like "We'll take it into consideration" or "We'll just put it out on one server and if we get enough adopters, we will bring it to all servers". It can easily be not what people want to hear but a sudden and large backlash normally warrants a response, just like when they removed the legacy cursor.

This is a straw man with no relation to this thread or the current conversation

It mostly just tracks 3 things. Braum is the only example I know off the top of my head but for him it was CC length, amount of stuns with passive, and takedowns meaning kills + assists So really it's just a kill tracker.

It's really not that hard to wade through a couple forums every now and again, especially when a big new feature is coming out, and also it's really easy to pick out most trolly and hateful posts from legitimate normal ones. Stuff like profanity, direct insults, and sarcasm are all good indicators that a post should be avoided. This post is an example of a good one. No insults in the title or body, no profanty, no sarcasm, nothing could be taken as belittling or offensive, it's just someone saying they are unhappy and things that they would prefer. Also it's not like they only have to say one thing, they could join the discussion if they really want to, we won't tell them to leave and the people who do will probably get downvoted to hell so their response can't be seen.

Well you see, many people with me included see this as gouging your playerbase for money. Of course they can start making a league a subscription base game and an additional one if you want to play ranked and then an ADDITIONAL pay wall if you want ranked rewards. They are totally legally able to do that and people would be fine with it. I know myself and a lot of this community won't stand that and because we live in a mostly open market, we'll just go and play some competitors MOBA or just forget MOBAs entirely because clearly League wouldn't be worth our time or money. You may think this is just me going to a far extreme but it's what I have to do to tell you that for me, we're already hitting the extreme of what I'm willing to put up with and I'm just about at my breaking point before I go and find anything else to do and spend my money on. Riot has been taking features from other free to play games and putting them behind a paywall for only a select few to actually access which mostly splits the playerbase into those who have money and those who don't. Eternals is a short term and short sighted profit nab that will segment the community more, make those without wallets leave, make those who can easily afford this stuff support bad behavior, and ultimately drive the priorities of the game from making it enjoyable and something that people want to spent money on, even it's only 10 dollars a year, into something that's just a cash sink for the rich and those who are bad with money who accidental ruin themselves. I would be fine if any special Eternal flairs would be paywalled but not the feature itself.

Gonna need some evidence for that claim since you're so keen to jump on other people about lacking evidence.

If you have to punch down at someone instead of tackling what they said to you, that makes your argument look weak and yourself, sensitive. Calm down. Take a breather. No one is sending the FBI to raid your house. You say do research but yet show no evidence to support your claims. You also need to understand that there are loads and loads of people supporting posts like both here and on the forums and the original posts about Eternals so it's not like it's really just a vocal minority. It would be quite difficult to get a larger scale sample that isn't biased due to most people on forums tend to crusade against things they don't like when the discussion gets really heated but we could possibly get riot to make a client side poll like they've done before to possibly see some type of result. It's unlikely though because talking to riot as a company is impossible and it's hard to find out who actually does what even though it's easy to find who works there and just talk to them on twitter.

Honestly your first response would have served much better if it at all was actually relevant to the post in question. There are plenty of people who made a post where they just said "Fuck riot" but this wasn't one of them why you needed to state "First of all, none of this is constructive criticism" because it's blatantly wrong and ignorant of what the OP even said.

Having just read this thread this is probably the most articulate and well stated response I have read. Thank you.

ProExpertKing1 votes

{quoted}

Having just read this thread this is probably the most articulate and well stated response I have read. Thank you.

I like to do that some times although normally don't get a lot of support on it because I don't really take much of a stance on it and just mostly try to aline everyone thinking and discussion so that it doesn't just become an insult war.

If you want my full and actual opinion on Eternals, I can work up another thesis paper for you.

Tuition Fee6 votes

I don't think Boards is alone on this one. Reddit was in an uproar about it too, and even changed their name to League of Eternal$ iirc.

KnKitsune4 votes

People on the boards, Reddit, AND Twitter are voicing mostly negative responses on Eternals.

I mean you can look up the LoL reddit on google and the title says £₮€R₦₼L$ $$$ Grab with an anti-Eternals thread having 15.6k upvotes.

SnyperWulff3 votes

I'm just amused that rift herald said that it won't cause bad behavior or trolling. Like... Do they realize how hard up people are in this game to be perfect. Go ahead, mess up a players chance to earn that sweet achievement they were so close to getting. Guarantee they will rage like no other.

On a more serious note. I don't think they need to pay wall it. There is zero need as they make money off everything else. Just let people get the stupid things and show them off. Don't make them pay Ala Apex Legends Axe heirloom. Speaking of I really want a Dev from Riot to see the backlash going on with that insanity and rethink if it's a good idea to ask people to pay for the use of their work towards and achievement.

Neumím Riven3 votes

Are you new on boards? Rito doesnt give a fck about community

Jennifer4202 votes

"riot talk to us" haha. good one.

kyoyaoaaa2 votes

That image punched me in the feels

enshine2 votes

IT REEKS OF THE DESPERATION OF A FAILING COMPANY

Zac x Me2 votes

It all started with them no longer doing Chromas for the default skin, as they'd generate too little money and eventually would be available for BE for an unannounced short time span. Now we are here where things that were taken away are put back in for money.

SoonTM:

"Prestige Honor" - You can now honor the enemy team with RP. "Prestige Gifting" - You can now gift post game again by paying double the RP. "Prestige Chatroom" - You can now create and join chatrooms again for RP.

Nea1042 votes

They haven't listened for at least 2 years. Wanna bet about now?

ProExpertKing2 votes

You know there still is a free stat tracker on the client right now right?

The information doesn't really tell me jack shit on how to actually approve but it's SUPPOSED to keep track of previous seasons but it can tell you how well you are doing in any ranked division, something that the previous end report didn't have. It also updates every game you play and you can access it at any time which is nice although you can't combine ranked and draft stats to see the total games played.

I got a B+ for Zac compared to other Gold players

I wanna know if they are gonna replace stats with Eternals because if they do, then I'm certainly never gonna fucking buy one because you just made a paywall for an equally shitty product. It's like nintendo switch live. Why the fuck would I wanna pay anything per year for features that were more functional when they were free?

Beerstein1 votes

{quoted}

You know there still is a free stat tracker on the client right now right?

The information doesn't really tell me jack shit on how to actually approve but it's SUPPOSED to keep track of previous seasons but it can tell you how well you are doing in any ranked division, something that the previous end report didn't have. It also updates every game you play and you can access it at any time which is nice although you can't combine ranked and draft stats to see the total games played.

I got a B+ for Zac compared to other Gold players

I wanna know if they are gonna replace stats with Eternals because if they do, then I'm certainly never gonna fucking buy one because you just made a paywall for an equally shitty product. It's like nintendo switch live. Why the fuck would I wanna pay anything per year for features that were more functional when they were free?

They stopped updating it with the release of league of autochess. Also, those stats are enough to help you improve when they actual are turned on.

ProExpertKing1 votes

{quoted}

They stopped updating it with the release of league of autochess. Also, those stats are enough to help you improve when they actual are turned on.

It still updates my stats unless you mean they stopped updating it as in improving it.

Also I mean it tells me that people do x more than me but it doesn't really tell me how they do more than me. The information that someone is a better artist than me doesn't help me improve, I need to actually see their work and how they create it to try and implement some of the same tactics into my own drawings. It doesn't matter that I know I'm below the average cs advantage for Zac, what do people do to bump that number up? THAT'S what I need to know.

The new stat tracker doesn't do that. It just annoys your teammates with a popup and sound effect when ever you beat your record and you can't turn it off.

Beerstein1 votes

{quoted}

It still updates my stats unless you mean they stopped updating it as in improving it.

Also I mean it tells me that people do x more than me but it doesn't really tell me how they do more than me. The information that someone is a better artist than me doesn't help me improve, I need to actually see their work and how they create it to try and implement some of the same tactics into my own drawings. It doesn't matter that I know I'm below the average cs advantage for Zac, what do people do to bump that number up? THAT'S what I need to know.

The new stat tracker doesn't do that. It just annoys your teammates with a popup and sound effect when ever you beat your record and you can't turn it off.

If it says you have low KP % it means you know you need to prioritize showing up to teamfights more. Low CS advantage, bully the enemy off his CS more while making sure you arent dropping CS low CS/min? Focus overall more on CS and less on other stuff etc. etc.

Also, you're right, it looks like they finally turned stats back on.

ProExpertKing1 votes

{quoted}

If it says you have low KP % it means you know you need to prioritize showing up to teamfights more. Low CS advantage, bully the enemy off his CS more while making sure you arent dropping CS low CS/min? Focus overall more on CS and less on other stuff etc. etc.

Also, you're right, it looks like they finally turned stats back on.

How am I supposed to bully the enemy jungler off of cs as Zac? Also low KP can be more of a result on that I have some games where my team is fucking on it and Cait is 3v1ing and winning before I even get there. I do have that where rough games, I tend to have a really high kp, easy games, I don't even get a chance to because everyone is dead so I just help take objectives like dragon or tower.

Beerstein1 votes

{quoted}

How am I supposed to bully the enemy jungler off of cs as Zac? Also low KP can be more of a result on that I have some games where my team is fucking on it and Cait is 3v1ing and winning before I even get there. I do have that where rough games, I tend to have a really high kp, easy games, I don't even get a chance to because everyone is dead so I just help take objectives like dragon or tower.

Even in hypotheticals you blame your allies. No stats or advice would help with that mentality anyway lol.

SettDownShutUp1 votes

I will PAY to hear gangplank on my ARAM, heck give me Mordekaiser.

preternatural1 votes

stats are already on the client, eternals is so that everyone can know about your stats. frankly if riot added an APM and QWER tracker everyone complaining right now would buy it.

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