With Liandry's getting buffed, Brand really needs to be tuned.

iPooUnicorns··15 votes·26,102 views

It's no secret that Brand can do a ton of damage with nothing other than levels. Yet his scaling is incredibly lackluster, which makes his early game performance much less important than it should be on a high damage mage.

Even if he's incredibly behind or on Support income, he'll still do plenty of damage in a fight thanks to his insane base damage. His AP Ratios are almost irrelevant, when he's mid he doesn't need to get high AP items because his passive and R need 1000+ AP to deal more damage than their base damage, making magic penetration/DoT enhancement the best damage source every game.

Why? Look at his base damage vs scaling (all sourced from the league wikia):

Passive Part 1: Brand's abilities set his targets ablaze upon damaging them each second, dealing 4% of their maximum health as magic damage over 4 seconds, stacking up to 3 times, for a maximum of 12% of their maximum health over the duration, and empowering his abilities against them.

Entirely base damage, no scaling.

Passive Part 2: At 3 stacks, an area around the target is marked, which explodes after 2 seconds. All enemies struck are dealt 12% - 16% (based on level) 「 (+ 1.5% per 100 AP) 」 of their maximum health as magic damage. The explosion will still trigger if the target dies to the third ability or during the delay.

For the damage from the AP ratio to come close to the base damage, he would need more than** 1000 AP**.

To summarize, his passive gives all of his abilities 12% max HP damage over 4 seconds, and in a "perfect combo" (each spell landing on the 4th second of the DoT) of 3 basic abilities, it will deal 48-52% max HP, no AP required.

Q: MAGIC DAMAGE: 80 / 110 / 140 / 170 / 200 (+ 55% AP)

Average base damage and AP ratio, but it isn't really a "damage" spell. AP needed to match the base damage is ~363 AP.

W: MAGIC DAMAGE: 75 / 120 / 165 / 210 / 255 (+ 60% AP) INCREASED DAMAGE: 93.75 / 150 / 206.25 / 262.5 / 318.75 (+ 75% AP)

Here we find his only spell with a decent AP ratio, but it already has high base damage. AP needed to match the base damage is 425 AP.

E: MAGIC DAMAGE: 70 / 90 / 110 / 130 / 150 (+ 35% AP)

Low base damage and low AP ratio, but it's a point click spell, it shouldn't do much damage AP needed to match the base damage is ~ 429 AP.

R: MAGIC DAMAGE: 100 / 200 / 300 (+ 25% AP)

Again, high base damage, bounces four times, can only bounce twice to a single target, leaving the AP ratio to have a max of 50% AP but a base 600 damage. AP needed to match base damage is 1200 AP.


Having such high base damage and bad AP ratios leads to an "ideal" Brand build looking like:

item 3092 if Support

item 3285 if Mid, and he really only needs a item 3802

item 3151item 3020item 3165item 3135item 3116

Really his biggest damage items are:

item 3020 for MPen item 3916 for MPen item 3151 for more %HP DoT - with buffs incoming too! item 3135 for MPen


While Brand should be able to deal a lot of damage, as it's the only thing he has to offer to his team, he shouldn't get the majority of it for free. Nerfs to his base damage and increases to his AP ratios needs to happen. This won't exile him completely from bot lane, it would just make it riskier and wouldn't give him a free ride into mid game. Additionally he should have more access to builds like item 3285item 3151item 3089item 3135 when going mid lane, allowing him to choose between high damage and utility.

41 Comments

VG Crows10 votes

You are exaggerating Brand's inherent power and are clearly unaware of Brand's issues as a mage all the while suggesting about possible "solutions" to his damage. This issue has already been discussed in a similar Gameplay post some time ago, so I'll repeat the answer. Brand does NOT NEED his AP ratios increased and base damage nerfed. Doing this will not solve anything. First: Brand has had high base damages ALL ALONG even pre rework. And it might sound obvious to you, but this is what Brand has been all about IN EVERY ITERARION: DAMAGE. Does he bring good utility with it? No,hardly. Does he bring mobility? Not at all. Can he peel/save his botlane teammate as reliably as other supports,for instance comparing him with similar damage oriented support, Zyra? No,he can't. All he brings to the table is DAMAGE, BASE DAMAGE that is and this has been his moto for ages,both on mid and support. It's what he is meant to do and what differentiates him from majority of mages who can't do nearly the same. You are basically trying to kill his identity.

Secondly: him transitioning to botlane support from mid (which is sad btw) all of a sudden is a result of two things: a) Damage abundance in the game and overall bad game state ; b) His lack of decent waveclear when compared to majority of mages(I can copy-paste my own upvoted answer to Riot Maple Nectar if you wish about it). The latter enhances the effect of the first. How is this beaten up solution of increasing his ratios would solve his lackluster waveclear? The ONE MAJOR thing that is holding him from going on mid? Moreover, midlane as of now is infested with assassins. Brand just can't contest with lackluster waveclear and insane vulnerability to mobile BS. Hence,you see him botlane.

Thirdly: past a certain elo, somewhere between P1-D4 to be exact, you seldom see Brand. Personally I maybe see him once every 30 games. Maybe. Why does he seem powerful in elos Plat and below? Because people group more often,fight more often, and don't play optimally enough to counter what Brand wants to do in teamfight. Hence he looks powerful. While the truth is,when it comes to optimal play, Brand is WEAK. JUST damage paired with immobility and low utility becomes not nearly enough for consistent good performance. Liandry buff might be unnecessary, but just because an item Brand has built since forever is enhanced, doesn't mean you need to nerf an already underperforming in optimal play champion. Also when did Riot last nerf a champion because item they were using is broken on them? Stormrazor Jhin is being abused since forever yet nothing is being done about it. Same thing here,except Liandry doesn't break Brand as hard as Stormrazor does Jhin.

Finally, Brand is not the top problem in the game right now, not even the mid problem this game has. There are way worse issues happening that must be addressed ASAP but Brand is completely not one of those.

TomiMan71 votes

No point..Ppl who dont play Brand wont understand this, hence these posts. Hell, if you know how to play againt Brand you can counter him with ashe support(done it multiple times) tbh as a Brand main i cant really recall a game where i lost to a Brand support so thats that.

Only thin I'd change in your post(witch is true 100%) is this:

Thirdly: past a certain elo, somewhere between P1-D4 to be exact, you seldom see Brand.

I'd say G3+ you almost never see Brand. Once i got to these P4-G3 games, my effectivness with Brand dropped drastically.

Khristophoros1 votes

Let's talk about this Elo thing you brought up because that's the biggest reason he needs to be changed. His kit isn't good. It thrives on chaos and bad enemy coordination. As a Brand player I want to have skill differentiation and opportunity for mastery. I want my success to primarily result from me making the right decisions. I don't want my success to primarily result from my enemies being bad.

The biggest problem is, I could play hundreds more games as Brand and it wouldn't really change how good I am with him.

TomiMan71 votes

The biggest problem is, I could play hundreds more games as Brand and it wouldn't really change how good I am with him.

Thats not exactly true. A bad brand can be destroyed by virtually anything. A good one? Now thats destroyed virtually anything.

On the skill part, yeah i do agree with you. The passive circle basically relies on the enemy being bad, or your team having some insane CC.

Khristophoros1 votes

Sorry I should clarify. The context is I am a mastery 7 Brand and he's one of my secondary mains. I believe his skill cap is so low that I wouldn't benefit from practicing him at this point.

On the other hand, my main is Vel'koz and even though his kit is pretty simple, his mechanics offer a lot more skill expression than Brand and more room for mastery even though he's not crazy high skillcap like some other champs.

The only thing I like about Brand's kit is that if you are fundamentally a better player than your opponent you'll destroy them just by landing skillshots and positioning better than them. That aspect of his kit feels extremely rewarding. But it still leaves a lot to be desired in skill expression since a lot of the mechanics are kinda nullified just by the enemy team having good coordination and playing smart.

TomiMan71 votes

mastery lvl7 doesnt mean anything tbh. Im a brand main too, 98k till 1M mastery points.

sure with Brand you cant really make those flashy plays like with zed. BUT what you need to have in order to survive and dont die in every single teamfight is to have a perfect positioning. You need to know who has blaze on them, you need to think very fast which spells to use to maximase your dmg, and get your 3 stacks on as many enemy as possible. You make one mistake one misstep, and you died. Those who say that brand is just a press R champ clearly never played brand to his fullest potential. The more time passes the harder it becomes for a Brand to be successful, that is shown in his winrate. You also have to rely on the enemy screwing things up a bit. On the other hand i do agree that there could be a lot to changed in brands kit to make it more fun...

Khristophoros1 votes

What I'm saying is I've played him enough to not really have any room to improve. The only possible improvement to my Brand is just getting better at League of Legends itself. It's just positioning and skillshots. There's no reason I should practice Brand specifically. I can practice champions with more skill expression and go back to Brand and be better with him than I was before because 100% of his skillcap is just the fundamentals of the game itself.

Basically I'm saying that players hit Brand's skill cap before they get to mastery 7 and that's way too shallow.

TomiMan71 votes

hmm you got a point there... maybe another aspect is knowing your dmg? Since its % its vary to game to game and to champ to champ, and knowing wheter your pasive wil secure the kill or you gotta stick there for an extra spell and risk your life? maybe thats another aspect i can think of. But yeah you are right in the sense that you hit a plato quite fast in general "brand knowledge".

painkills1 votes

Wukong. The answer to your question is Wukong. Duskblade / stormorazor were strong, and a champion that is less than optimal was gutted. His runes were gutted. His base damage was gutted. His scaling was gutted.

Wukong.

Closing in6 votes

All that damage comes for a cost though he gets punished pretty hard for the animation time of his abilities as he cant move while casting them like most champions which puts him in a weak spot already, not to mention that his w and q are skillshots and most people already understand that they shouldn't be together to prevent his ult from bouncing and proc'ing his passive thats why he's even played as support and no longer seen on mid lane also even as sup have an all in champ like leona/thresh against him wait for a gank, perma cc him and this game will be pretty much 6v4

Popperofski4 votes

{quoted}

All that damage comes for a cost though he gets punished pretty hard for the animation time of his abilities as he cant move while casting them like most champions which puts him in a weak spot already, not to mention that his w and q are skillshots and most people already understand that they shouldn't be together to prevent his ult from bouncing and proc'ing his passive thats why he's even played as support and no longer seen on mid lane also even as sup have an all in champ like leona/thresh against him wait for a gank, perma cc him and this game will be pretty much 6v4

You've never actually had a brand who can hit anything on your team, have you?

TomiMan71 votes

Dude, if you know how to play against Brand, you can literally counter him with ANYTHING. This comes from a Brand main. I've yet to lose against a Brand support when he was taken from me, and i play sht like ashe, cait, jhin, zed support and you can faceroll Brand if you know how to. Instead of wasting time on posting these comments/ threads, put time into actually learning how to play against Brand and your life will become much easier.

Metal Janna1 votes

{quoted}

i play sht like ashe, cait, jhin, zed support

All AD. Try playing against him with a magic damage support. He will outdamage you in every trade, you can't dodge his Pillar of Flame or Sear without boots, and you just can't dodge Conflagration at all.

TomiMan71 votes

Thats just not true lol. W is easy to dodge man. it has a 0.625 second delay, witch means if you dont have your grannys reflexes you can dodge. Also Zyra is a good counter, she can burst harder, faster and from a longer range. Nami, sona, soraka. All good counters. The first two outranges Brand, and also has sustain. The third can cock his all in with silence and healing. You bois just gotta learn to play against Brand. I'm yet to lose lane agaisnt a Brand support.

Metal Janna1 votes

{quoted}

Thats just not true lol. W is easy to dodge man. it has a 0.625 second delay

First of all, a 0.625 second delay means nothing unless you can immediately recognize what's going to happen. Blitzcrank has a delay on his hook too but it means very little because his "raising his arm, getting ready to fire" animation is kind of subtle, so the only time you're likely to instantly react and change direction is when he's running toward you and suddenly stops. Brand is a rare thing bot, so his animations are even less well known than Blitzcrank's. Great reflexes don't help if you don't see it coming until it's already fired. Second, how do you know what his delay is? I tried Leaguepedia and op.gg but neither has information that detailed. Third: Sona? She can barely dodge anything and she does not outrange Brand. Hymn of Valor:825 range. Sear:1050. Pillar of Flame:900 + 250 for an edge cast. Conflagration: 625. Pyroclasm: 750 but the presence of any minions or allies allows Brand to bounce it another 750 beyond that. You're probably right about the other three though. A good Zyra can land hits from outside her range just like a good Brand can.

TomiMan71 votes

First of all, a 0.625 second delay means nothing unless you can immediately recognize what's going to happen.

So you have your grannys reflexes.

Blitzcrank has a delay on his hook too but it means very little because his "raising his arm, getting ready to fire" animation is kind of subtle, so the only time you're likely to instantly react and change direction is when he's running toward you and suddenly stops

Blitzcrank has the standard 0,25 second cast time on his Q like 90% of the spells. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Blitzcrank Look it up if you dont believe it.

Second, how do you know what his delay is? I tried Leaguepedia and op.gg but neither has information that detailed.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Brand

Most sites just copy pasta what they find on the official site, witch never states the correct values only uses "after a short delay" "slows briefly" etc etc. Never values just stupid phrases.

Sear:1050. Pillar of Flame:900 + 250 for an edge cast. Conflagration: 625. Pyroclasm: 750 but the presence of any minions or allies allows Brand to bounce it another 750 beyond that.

Yes sona can easily outrange Brand. How? Q:stand behind minions. W:Easy, Sona Q then E and run away. With the speedboost you can easily outrun Brands W cast+delay time so you wont take any dmg. E: seriously? That has the same range as his AA range, since ability range and AA range is not the same. So 100range AA is not equal to a 100 range ability. Just go ingame and try it out for yourself with Brand if you dont believe me. R: push the wave. Brand cant do shit if you push the enemy bot lane under turret. If he tries to do anything he will get minion aggro and you can stun him and he is dead. Once again spam E if he wants to do anything and kite him.

Kídá2 votes

To summarize, his passive gives all of his abilities 12% max HP damage over 4 seconds, and in a "perfect combo" (each spell landing on the 4th second of the DoT) of 3 basic abilities, it will deal 48-52% max HP, no AP required.

each ability landed grants a stack so each ability will deal an additional 4% max HP damage, not 12% for each ability so in a perfect combo he would deal 24-28% max hp damage, not 48-52% max hp damage. Being able to deal 48-52% max hp damage at level 3 would be insane. How this post got approved while containing incorrect information is beyond me.

Additionally Lowering his base damage and increasing his ratios is always the "solution" people come up with to "balance" brand when in reality all that will do is make him require more items and therefore more gold which he can't afford as support while still having the same issues in mid making the dumpster the only viable place he can go.

TomiMan71 votes

I do agree with your comment 100% just this part

each ability landed grants a stack so each ability will deal an additional 4% max HP damage, not 12% for each ability so in a perfect combo he would deal 24-28% max hp damage,

hurts my eyes. first of all i dont think there is a perfect combo where you can utilize your passive dmg to 100%. You just cant wait that much time between spells. Most of the times you dump your combo and MAYBE you wait 1 seconds before you W the enemy to deal some extra dmg.

Done251 votes

{quoted} Additionally Lowering his base damage and increasing his ratios is always the "solution" people come up with to "balance" brand when in reality all that will do is make him require more items and therefore more gold which he can't afford as support...

Then it's a good thing Brand isn't actually a Support yea?

Khristophoros1 votes

Brand was originally designed to be an AP mid laner. He was just never good at it. Brand as a Support is an emergent phenomenon that was never particularly intended. Riot apparently doesn't mind him being played as a support but at the same time he has never fully delivered his originally intended design as a powerful mid lane carry which a lot of us Brand players want.

It doesn't make any sense to claim that he's primarily a support. It was never his intended design and he wasn't even a competitively viable support until relatively recently (like season 7 and 8).

Also it's very common to see people complaining about him as a support because his level 6 in a 2v2 lane is really frustrating to deal with. Personally I don't care but I hear this complaint a lot.

So of course people are going to suggest power shifting him towards more AP and less %hp damage.

Personally I think for mid he also needs to be more durable because he lacks the tools other mid laners have. He has no mobility, no defensive skills, and his only CC requires him to hit another ability first. He needs better AP ratios and some kind of boost to survivability against strong midlaners if he is to fulfill his role as a carry.

Nhifu2 votes

The game will never fit in an immobile mage, with a 2 step requirement stun.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

Approved!

Minimac20001 votes

I'm pretty sure Malzahar could be ok though, considering how he's like not a champ without his ult lol giving his basic abilities a slight bump from the liandry's change could be nice

Khristophoros1 votes

Personally I would like to see a power shift away from %hp towards AP scaling and additional durability so he can be stronger in mid. His mid lane winrate dropped this patch despite the buff to Liandry's.

Theleon1 votes

All that and his long range kit.. it's really hard to play against such a champion in botlane. Even in mid. His W is irritating.

BlinkZZ1821 votes

Sounds good. What if I build item 3020 item 3165item 3098 then full tankitem 3110 item 3001 item 3083 on support brand, does that work

Done252 votes

[{quoted}](name=UVM ZhaoRiTian,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=NItEOAMb,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2018-10-03T15:45:01.633+0000)

Sounds good. What if I build item 3020 item 3165item 3098 then full tankitem 3110 item 3001 item 3083 on support brand, does that work

Ideal build is item 3098 item 3020 item 3151 item 3165 item 3116 item 3135

Hibeki1 votes

He only gets 12% max hp on three stacks, its 4% each

Jetboost1 votes

As i read some of the coments over here why not rework his passive? On a sidenote don't really play the guy but i think this might do good to his playstyle.

The explosion is cool though i'd like to keep it but i do want to take some power away from it to make it so that every spell he casts leaves a area of effect behind in the area it passes or is cast in. This area of effect will burn (seperate from the burning stack) and damage(% or ap scaling wise or both) enemies every second within and apply a stack of burn. His E thus needs to change as well this will make it even more so that he can damage the wave better. Make it so that brand when Brand uses its E on a burning target or on his AoE burning field, that an circle of flame slow to fast grows from that point only the outline of the circle should burn though and this circle should be a bit bigger than his W. Exploding enemies leave behind a W patched size AoE. AoE fields are seperate but don't stack their damage.

This does make him more powerfull so his manacost(or cooldowns) should perhaps become a slight bit higher. But in the end it would fit the"Set the whole world aflame" image better in my oppinion.

iPooUnicorns1 votes

If anything, his passive should be reworked to apply on minions (albeit with a smaller aoe) to push him back midlane with the increased wave clear he would gain.

Jetboost1 votes

The damage of the passive on/from the minions when they explode should be changed a bit then because if you manage to proc passive on the entire cannon wave the those explosions would deal 84% damage it's unlikely that something like this would present itself though. But in the case enemy team starts pushing with baron buff with an bigger wave then everything will really be set ablaze he would be able clear the entirety of it + the unlucky champions that were caught within and thus also countering the baron buff severely.

So i think his passive damage on minions should be changed a bit and at the very least the damage on baron buffed minnions should change in your case. Something like a limit would do: deal a % max health damage limited to a max of X for minions.

iPooUnicorns1 votes

Yeah, a damage cap on minions would be necessary.

TomiMan71 votes

dude you have 0 idea how he works He needs 3 spells for his passive to proc the circle. Why would the ability to proc his passive on minions would do any good? He already has manaproblems.

5050BS1 votes

Yep

Basically you get nicked by one of his spells and you take 27% of your max hps as magic damage

His % hps needs to all scale off his AP and MAXING out at 20% WITH Liandry at like 800-900 AP

TomiMan71 votes

Basically you get nicked by one of his spells and you take 27% of your max hps as magic damage

Thats a straight up lie.

His % hps needs to all scale off his AP and MAXING out at 20% WITH Liandry at like 800-900 AP

Thats basically shits for dmg for how much ap he would have.

You dont seem to understand that Brands only perk is his dmg, He has no sustain no mobility, no low cd spam ability all of his abilities are 10sec cds, poor waveclear and high manacosts.

LilxPaprika1 votes

perhaps a better solutions rather than try and shoehorn heroes when they are fine except for some one or two items. this feature might be a better approach: https://docdro.id/qG5Y6Ka

perhaps the feature could have it such that it actually takes away stats as well from a hero that could abuse it. or revert to old item 3151 and buff give a slew of heroes their own specific bonus when equipping item 3151

TomiMan71 votes

Aaaaaaand here we are a months later or more, and Brand is yet to be broken, abused or rocking any out of the line winrate. Man ppl should actually spend time learning to play against him.

Noxo1 votes

Has anyone seen the Sunfire tank brand montage yet? Yeah. IT exists.

More from [ARCHIVED] Gameplay+

More by iPooUnicorns