The History of CC and Why I Believe it's a Problem

ModCaptainMårvelous·8/24/2018, 11:59:17 PM·165 votes·49,080 views

Hello G+,

For this thread, I want to talk about CC but namely, what has become of CC. To do this, we need to take a step back to the early days as well as go all the way to LoL's roots in DOTA classic. Strap in, it's a long one:

#The Beginning: Alpha/Beta LoL and DOTA Classic

As someone who plays DoTA would tell you, CC in DOTA hits hard and sticks. Some CC can last absurd amounts of time and will punish you hard for being hit by it at the right time. Likewise, because resources cost more and there are so many ways to circumvent CC (Black King Bar is a common argument), CC wasn't the end-all OP OP of DOTA. Still, the essence was the same: For several seconds you could lose control of your character and you would be unable to do anything about it.

When Riot began making League, they ported similar DOTA designs to it. This is why we had a lot of old champions with powerful, point-and-click CC that lasted quite some time. To give an example of what old League used to be, let's look at 2009 Fiddle's Terrify during a patch note. This was a nerf, by the way.

Duration reduced to 1 / 1.75 / 2.5 / 3.25 / 4 seconds from 2 / 2.5 / 3 / 3.5 / 4.

4 second fear at max rank. On a point and click. And people say things these days are busted. Riot, however, also noted that players often felt crappy when they'd get chain CC'd to the end of the earth, plus the nature of no turn times, meant that there needed to be a stat to counter it. Enter tenacity. Tenacity was a stat that was rarely present on items that allowed you to shave off CC time by certain amounts. It was also present in certain champion kits, allowing you to weather more CC. Tenacity was actually the second edition of CC reduction, the original effect being ALL CC while tenacity had exceptions. This leads to what I like to call the CC triangle:

https://i.imgur.com/9mzDjKi.png

Non-displacement CC, such as stuns, snares, roots and more would be at the top: Long in nature (3-4+ seconds) but countered by tenacity. Displacement was shorter yet couldn't be countered. Suppression was both long and uncounterable but could be QSS'd as well as requiring the supressor to channel their ability. Slows would be in the center: Affecting everyone equally while also having drastically varied slow strength and time.

This also meant there was a power-tier and counter: Normal CC would hurt immobile, squishy champions the hardest as it could mean their demise while tankier characters had tenacity. Displacement hurt melee characters the most as it often peeled them away from the squishy types and beat out tenacity. Finally, suppression beat mobile champions the most because it would force them to stay still as well as get them to buy a QSS, setting their build back to counter them. It wasn't perfect, sure, but every CC had a place.

#The Middle: The Rise of Displacements and Death of Normal CC

As time went on, Riot began to shy away from normal CC. It was long and players often complained about it. The running joke was always being feared by Fiddle or bound by Morgana, which meant you could go do taxes, raise a family and more before it ended. It was to this end that Riot began to reduce CC of these abilities, which we see today:

ACTIVE: Fiddlesticks causes the target enemy to Flee icon flee as well as Slow icon slowing them by 90%. DURATION: 1.25 / 1.5 / 1.75 / 2 / 2.25

Riot also began putting more displacement in kits, as it was "easier to balance" in their own words. It was shorter, quicker and usually attached to a skillshot. To me, this is the beginning to the decline of normal CC and the reign of displacements which we still see today. Abilities like blind and silence began to be phased away in favor of interrupts and "sight reduction", as it affected everyone equally rather than hardcountering one type of character (Auto attackers and casters, respectively). Normal CC in the game was further reduced, moving the monstrous 5 second stun to a far more wimpy 2 second stun at max.

Riot forgot to consider something: The power of displacements vs. melee characters. With the rise of displacement, melee often had no counter to getting in and would often be knocked away or pushed up to buy time for ranged to move further away. This, in turn, leads to melee needing more tools to stick to targets. Hence why mobility began to rise in the face of displacements. Tenacity also began to suffer as well. Despite not being "bad" per se, tenacity was much less effective in shaving 40% off a 2 second stun vs. 40% off a 5 second stun. Tenacity, due to this, feels much weaker these days. Especially on melee characters.

#Today: Of Pinball and Pythagorean Triangles.

This is what the CC triangle looks like today:

https://i.imgur.com/Ec40Y8A.png

Displacements are king, with most new champions/reworks eschewing a stun or snare in favor of a short displacement. Displacement is also still unable to be countered, as your only option is to get a spell blocking tool (Banshees/Edge) to avoid the displacement itself. With Morgana up for rework next, it's very likely she'll be the last vestige of the old 3+ second CC club to vanish. This will leave Ashe as the only character with a 3+ second CC in the game, further weakening tenacity.

Melee continue to suffer due to displacement and rather than Riot working on displacement, they opt to instead give bigger reward for getting and staying in. If Darius grabs you, you're often ruined unless you have a flash. If you can't peel that Yorick, he's going to cleave your face in with a shovel. Likewise, if they can't get in, they're non-champions. In trying to make the game easier to balance, Riot has created a more binary aspect of the game in champions being overwhelmingly powerful or complete dumpster-tier.

Finally, with the change to most CC being skillshot based, it gives further advantage to mobility. It's harder to pin a champion down, making characters like Annie or Malzahar a premium in dealing with a high-speed mobility champ. It also means that the CC budget is far weaker, giving FAR more power to a champion's utility or kit while siphoning CC away from them.

In the focus of stripping away CC strength to stun/snares/etc, Riot backed themselves into a corner and forced displacement to be the norm, which in turn forced the game to focus more in getting and staying in (for melee) while ranged was pushed more toward keeping enemies away,

#Fixing the CC Triangle

I'm of the idea that the CC triangle should move back towards the rock-paper-scissor ratio, yet also improve on the counterplay of before. Tenacity was a good start but most of it was frontloaded into mercury treads. While certain characters have tenacity in their kit, I believe the stat needs an overhaul much akin to stats like crit.

For one thing, Tenacity should be a stat mostly for tanks or tanky bruisers. While available to assassins or ranged carries, it should be in far lesser quantities. In an ideal arena, tanks/juggernauts could sit around 50-60% tenacity MAX that would be spread across 2-3 items, making them potent mid-game threats but still vulnerable to displacement/heavy chain CC. Assassins/ADCs would sit at around 0-30% on certain niche items, such as Zephyr. This would give them a chance to fight back but not "tank" CC.

Second, after tenacity is improved, general CC should increase but only in the max levels. As an example: Fiddle sits around 1.25 at level one to 2.25 at level 5. I would imagine Fiddle would sit at 0.5 or 0.75 at level one at hit around 3-3.25 seconds at rank 5. This way, you're able to itemize against him by the time he's hitting heavy CC levels. This also means cleanse and QSS are now more useful, as they can remove CC that isn't just suppression.

But most of all: Add innate tenacity per CC. One of the biggest problems with modern league is the "pinball" effect of getting stunned, then snared, then knocked up, then suppressed, then killed. With innate tenacity per CC, it becomes harder (but not impossible) to chain CCs. Perhaps a 25-100% tenacity boost per CC landed. You'd have to chain more effectively while also being wary of which CC to hit with first and last.

This would also leave displacement as is, allowing it to still be useful but not the end-all. Hell, if this works you could even begin working on lowering mobility as it's easier to get in and stay in on targets!

#TL;DR

League began with heavy CC and a stat to counter it. This created a CC triangle. Riot opted to change their model and pushed towards weakning normal CC and adding more displacement. This, in turn, made melee weaker and forced more mobility to compete with being knocked away. The ease of balance early leads to problems late.

Riot should look into improving normal CC and tenacity while weakning CC chaining. From there, it can be easier to begin tuning back some long-standing mobility creep (Seasons 3-5 are the biggest offenders) while keeping the game in a relatively balanced state.

99 Comments

Mordepool8/25/2018, 12:32:36 AM94 votes

Riot Hire this person. Holy Shit you might even get a popular game again

Hibeki8/25/2018, 12:59:26 AM46 votes

One thing you forgot to mention is the speed of displacement. It needs tweaked too.

When you are up a gainst a wall, a knockback should not get you cc'd for the same duration. It triple dips on displacement.

#1) Moves you back a distance

#2) gives you extra time to get away because of the duration

#3) a microstun which lasts about a half second

Which adds up to a lee sin kick getting about 2 seconds of free CC on a point and click "displacement". Champions like Maokai basically have the duration DOUBLED because of the microstun. Champions like Riven can chain the knockup into the stun for a full 2 second period, etc. etc.

The microstuns is what infuriates me the most. i wouldnt have a damn problem with displacements even as a melee if it didnt have microstuns and the duration was reasonable.

TeCoolMage8/25/2018, 3:40:53 AM5 votes

I would not add tenacity per CC, they make the game unnecessarily more difficult to play and balance especially with low stun duration allies, nerf all follow up champions (those that have strong CC but don't engage like Anivia and Vel'koz), and punish high CC teams in a game where mobility and damage are much more valuable.

With 60% tenacity, tanks should be able to tank 10s of CC (reduced to 4s), and if there's 5 players it's a pretty big and risky investment (single target focus, a bit less damage, tending towards lower mobility) and should be rewarded

AbiwonKenabi8/25/2018, 2:50:46 PM4 votes

I completely disagree with adding "innate tenacity" to CC chains. Sure, it can be frustrating, but its often the result of good teamwork, something that sorely needs to be encouraged and often isn't enough. Waiting for the end of Morg's snare so you can Nami bubble with perfect timing feels good. A Lissandra that ults then times her snare perfectly feels good. If you're getting chain CC'd this easily, it's likely that either the enemy made a really sweet play and deserve to be rewarded, or your positioning was poor.

And thinking on the Lissandra example, why should Champions with two forms of CC be punished for chaining them? A lot of their power is going into those CC, it feels bad to punish them for that power allocation. Poor Nautilus' power is like 90% CC, I couldn't imagine him trying to function when after his hook, they get a grace period to get away from his slow-ass as he tries to auto attack snare them.

Stephenizgod8/25/2018, 7:49:23 PM3 votes

I agree with almost all of this.

However another factor you didn't quite mention is Damage being increased slowly over the years. Before, getting Feared for 4 seconds was only a problem if the enemy team successfully targeted and Chain CC'd you. Yes it was annoying but it did require a bit of coordination not to mention it left the 4 remaining teammates to try and protect or attack. There was strategy in this, this was how Teamfights were fought. You try to chain CC their most problematic champions while they do the same, you build a team around trying to stop the chain CC or continue it. Certain champions were stronger at one or the other, and while the game was far from perfect, nearly the entire roster had a place with the exception of rare cases like old Yorick who was complete garbage (unless you played him a lot like I did :D).

Fast forward to today, getting feared for 1 second can mean death because of how much damage there is in the game. You get Feared, Assassin or Mage insta-kills you because you can't insta-kill them first anymore. There is a whole layer of how damage has been increasing that is also contributing to the CC problem you are describing. The more damage, the worse longer CC felt. So they stopped putting as many non-displacement CC's because it felt bad and wasn't very fun. But champions needed some kind of CC because certain champions were running rampant (cough Marksmen cough) at the expense of other champions (cough anyone who wasn't an assassin cough) so the rise of displacements. I remember the joke that every champion had a 3 hit stacking mechanic and a knock-up/back.

I think Damage being increased is the root cause of this issue personally.

GreatWhiteNorth8/25/2018, 7:11:17 AM3 votes

This person, given a chance, could save League of Legends.

InstaPoppy8/25/2018, 12:10:57 PM3 votes

You say displacements mostly fucks melee's and there is some truth in that but melee champions and especialy tanks are also the the ones most likely to have a displacement instead of normal cc. From a quick count 21 ranged champions have a displacement and 42 melee champions have one. For this count i considerd jayce and gnar melee because they can only use their displacements in melee form. I also considerd ability's like trundle pillar, taliyah wall and anivia wall displacements for this count even though they are not primarily used for the displacement.

XeroKimo8/25/2018, 1:20:10 AM3 votes

Fixing the CC triangle will be a long journey and at this point, would change league as a whole. I personally think CC durations could be a cool balancing tool to work around, but in the end, I just don't see it happening. The game is relatively fast paced that being CCd for even a short amount of time is game changing. While mostly due to damage that makes it game changing and contributes to shaping modern CC duration, player dissatisfaction also plays a role. The prime example to look at is Morgana, who's CC ability has survived through the test of time, still has her Q last 3 seconds max all the way from season 1, there's a reason that the "I got an AFK warning" meme lasted for so long, because people didn't like not being able to move for so long, QSS wasn't a desirable option to buy, and tenacity was a item tied to merc treads so only tanks really ever got it. This, along with many other factors pushed CC to lower durations to the point that an average CC ability lasts ~1.5 seconds long, which is 0.5 seconds more than an average knock up, being 1 second long, which is also probably the reason that knockups are so prevalent as Riot's go to CC, as they can make it short, and be fair to all champions as they don't require a stat to shave off 0.5 seconds to make it be 1 second long.

WiccanBKaplan8/25/2018, 1:35:11 AM3 votes

The only point I wanna comment on is the Morgana statement as I doubt they will remove her 3s Root as they stated they are only looking into her w at most. Other than that I agree with the rest of your post. Properly said, 10/10 post mate.

Irelia Bot8/25/2018, 2:03:13 AM3 votes

Since most melee tend to build some health would perhaps making every 300 or 400 bonus health reduce displacements by 10% up to a max of 50% at 1500 or 2000 bonus health be a potential solution? It could also apply to armor and MR.

Also Riot could overhaul item 3056 make it have the active fortify the nearest turret for 5 seconds and doubling the attack speed and also add 25% tenacity. That would be an item I would highly consider for some situations.

On top of this perhaps add 25% Tenacity to a couple more items, reduce mercs to 25% and make it cap at 50% from items and runes then let Elixir of Iron increase your current Tenacity by 30% so a max of 65% tenacity only when you have the elixir going.

glava2228/25/2018, 3:42:59 PM2 votes

I would also say the diminishing returns on cc are unnecessary in LoL. When ccing people there are 3 kinds of targets:

  1. squishies of all kinds(mages,adcs,assasins...), which dont need to be chain cced as they will die in the span of max 2 different hard ccs, possibly even less so chain ccing them is pointless
  2. tanks, which can take several ccs and survive the damage during that time. In this case the tanks are actually doing their jobs of keeping the carries safe and disrupting the enemy team while being cced and focused down
  3. juggernauts(and battlemages too,kinda) which get completely shut down by cc chaining, but i would argue in this case that is a good thing, since the juggernaut power fantasy is being this big guy who must be stopped by several people at once, and chain cc is meant to be their main weakness

i would say that all those 3 interactions are working as they should be so there is no need to implement diminishing returns. i do agree with the rest of the post tho

Leto GT8/25/2018, 12:55:48 AM2 votes

Sorry to ask but could you specify what you mean by displacement? Janna R, Pyke Q and blitz Q? Are you trying to refer to "anything that can't be reduced by tenacity (including suppression and airborne)?

About the inner tenacity for cc chain. I can understand the idea. This has been implemented in MMO's.

BUT bear in mind that even with hundreds of hours of practice with the same ppl playing the same classes (sometimes for years) on the same add, it remains difficult to master while needing planning and communication. At the end, CC-based mechanics do tend to be removed. In ff14 for example, it's completely gone since the last expansion.

I can't really imagine this being implemented in league which is different every game in every possible way. Simply put, it does require some actual priority cc chain with perfect execution to not lose efficiency. Ppl might just give up on cc both on short and long run.

SwiftKitten888/26/2018, 3:12:24 AM2 votes

umm the issue isnt CC layering making it so u cant surive.. the issue is damage creep making it so u can survive if any for of cc hits you at all if your not DrMundo

Ifneth8/25/2018, 5:48:32 AM1 votes

Riot has leaned on displacements not despite their ignoring Tenacity but because of it. Crowd control spells need long durations to more than inconvenience high-Tenacity champions, leaving squishy characters helpless if hit.

Pianoasis2/4/2019, 7:55:50 AM1 votes

For one thing, Tenacity should be a stat mostly for tanks or tanky bruisers. While available to assassins or ranged carries, it should be in far lesser quantities.

Personally, I think carries deserve forgiveness when it comes to hard cc (suppression, standard stun, silence etc.) because there are those exceptions who lack engage and solo pressure but excell at other things (teamfight disruption, seige, vision control) Kalista Jinx .

I do see where your qualms lie though at the same time. Many carries who aren't dependent upon auto attacks to execute but benefit from precision runes are left with an easy decision, lifesteal (useless on ap) versus free tenacity (useful on every champion).

What I think should be done to remedy this is a change to these precision runes that everyone may be in favor for: reducing the stat gain for assists versus kills.

This will make all in assassins more all or nothing in their early game fights while also rewarding them for trying. As it stands now certain assassins are just getting free pressure for roaming and that can't be healthy to gameplay in any elo.

FixHealsRemoveGW8/26/2018, 8:25:15 PM1 votes

I never perceived cc chains as a problem, they are a good expression of teamwork and they make good decisions/positioning more rewarding and bad decisions/positioning more punishing.

Making cc chains less punishing would actually make the game more casual and result in damage being traded even faster in fights. Not sure if you really want that.

If you want tenacity for tanks and bruisers there is a rather simple solution. Give all champions tenacity and let it scale with armor, mr and health. So if you build defensive you automatically get more "tenacious". Ofc that would remove the "impactful decision" to buy mercs, but then again i can't imagine that anyone really likes being forced to decide between ninja tabi and mercs. When you are a tank it always feels like you need both effects.

Revert Skarner9/14/2018, 2:34:51 PM1 votes

This thread is inherently and completely Genius.

Riot should hire you, 100%.

While you're in there you should push for a Skarner Revert!

;)

QancerClown9/19/2018, 3:32:20 PM1 votes

GJ. Nice post.

Jetboost10/7/2018, 9:43:09 PM1 votes

Good points but there should in your case also be a limit to the inate bonus % tenacity gained i don't want to have a tank sprinting after me while imune to CC.

PowerHouseLegend10/28/2018, 12:25:24 AM1 votes

I agree with aloooott of what you said and that innate tenacity, I remember bringing that point up in one of my posts (probs the ranty one) and people just hard disagreed. I would say that the 25% -100% would be a little much. I would opt for a 15% per cc stacking multiplicatively, and have it effect knockups since their durations can alter between champ skills.

Great post man, keep analyzing the game.

crazÿ12/11/2018, 8:28:54 PM1 votes

or if they should remove damage from cc idk why cc deal alot of damage

Pika Fox8/25/2018, 7:42:32 PM1 votes

Theres still plenty of stuns, fears etc in the game, and you havnt really provided a good reason the supposed change is an issue/problem. There really isnt a valid reason. Even if we assume the CC patterns are changing (in general they arent), is it such a negative that we move away from plenty of 4+s CC?