The History of CC and Why I Believe it's a Problem

ModCaptainMårvelous··165 votes·49,080 views

Hello G+,

For this thread, I want to talk about CC but namely, what has become of CC. To do this, we need to take a step back to the early days as well as go all the way to LoL's roots in DOTA classic. Strap in, it's a long one:

#The Beginning: Alpha/Beta LoL and DOTA Classic

As someone who plays DoTA would tell you, CC in DOTA hits hard and sticks. Some CC can last absurd amounts of time and will punish you hard for being hit by it at the right time. Likewise, because resources cost more and there are so many ways to circumvent CC (Black King Bar is a common argument), CC wasn't the end-all OP OP of DOTA. Still, the essence was the same: For several seconds you could lose control of your character and you would be unable to do anything about it.

When Riot began making League, they ported similar DOTA designs to it. This is why we had a lot of old champions with powerful, point-and-click CC that lasted quite some time. To give an example of what old League used to be, let's look at 2009 Fiddle's Terrify during a patch note. This was a nerf, by the way.

Duration reduced to 1 / 1.75 / 2.5 / 3.25 / 4 seconds from 2 / 2.5 / 3 / 3.5 / 4.

4 second fear at max rank. On a point and click. And people say things these days are busted. Riot, however, also noted that players often felt crappy when they'd get chain CC'd to the end of the earth, plus the nature of no turn times, meant that there needed to be a stat to counter it. Enter tenacity. Tenacity was a stat that was rarely present on items that allowed you to shave off CC time by certain amounts. It was also present in certain champion kits, allowing you to weather more CC. Tenacity was actually the second edition of CC reduction, the original effect being ALL CC while tenacity had exceptions. This leads to what I like to call the CC triangle:

https://i.imgur.com/9mzDjKi.png

Non-displacement CC, such as stuns, snares, roots and more would be at the top: Long in nature (3-4+ seconds) but countered by tenacity. Displacement was shorter yet couldn't be countered. Suppression was both long and uncounterable but could be QSS'd as well as requiring the supressor to channel their ability. Slows would be in the center: Affecting everyone equally while also having drastically varied slow strength and time.

This also meant there was a power-tier and counter: Normal CC would hurt immobile, squishy champions the hardest as it could mean their demise while tankier characters had tenacity. Displacement hurt melee characters the most as it often peeled them away from the squishy types and beat out tenacity. Finally, suppression beat mobile champions the most because it would force them to stay still as well as get them to buy a QSS, setting their build back to counter them. It wasn't perfect, sure, but every CC had a place.

#The Middle: The Rise of Displacements and Death of Normal CC

As time went on, Riot began to shy away from normal CC. It was long and players often complained about it. The running joke was always being feared by Fiddle or bound by Morgana, which meant you could go do taxes, raise a family and more before it ended. It was to this end that Riot began to reduce CC of these abilities, which we see today:

ACTIVE: Fiddlesticks causes the target enemy to Flee icon flee as well as Slow icon slowing them by 90%. DURATION: 1.25 / 1.5 / 1.75 / 2 / 2.25

Riot also began putting more displacement in kits, as it was "easier to balance" in their own words. It was shorter, quicker and usually attached to a skillshot. To me, this is the beginning to the decline of normal CC and the reign of displacements which we still see today. Abilities like blind and silence began to be phased away in favor of interrupts and "sight reduction", as it affected everyone equally rather than hardcountering one type of character (Auto attackers and casters, respectively). Normal CC in the game was further reduced, moving the monstrous 5 second stun to a far more wimpy 2 second stun at max.

Riot forgot to consider something: The power of displacements vs. melee characters. With the rise of displacement, melee often had no counter to getting in and would often be knocked away or pushed up to buy time for ranged to move further away. This, in turn, leads to melee needing more tools to stick to targets. Hence why mobility began to rise in the face of displacements. Tenacity also began to suffer as well. Despite not being "bad" per se, tenacity was much less effective in shaving 40% off a 2 second stun vs. 40% off a 5 second stun. Tenacity, due to this, feels much weaker these days. Especially on melee characters.

#Today: Of Pinball and Pythagorean Triangles.

This is what the CC triangle looks like today:

https://i.imgur.com/Ec40Y8A.png

Displacements are king, with most new champions/reworks eschewing a stun or snare in favor of a short displacement. Displacement is also still unable to be countered, as your only option is to get a spell blocking tool (Banshees/Edge) to avoid the displacement itself. With Morgana up for rework next, it's very likely she'll be the last vestige of the old 3+ second CC club to vanish. This will leave Ashe as the only character with a 3+ second CC in the game, further weakening tenacity.

Melee continue to suffer due to displacement and rather than Riot working on displacement, they opt to instead give bigger reward for getting and staying in. If Darius grabs you, you're often ruined unless you have a flash. If you can't peel that Yorick, he's going to cleave your face in with a shovel. Likewise, if they can't get in, they're non-champions. In trying to make the game easier to balance, Riot has created a more binary aspect of the game in champions being overwhelmingly powerful or complete dumpster-tier.

Finally, with the change to most CC being skillshot based, it gives further advantage to mobility. It's harder to pin a champion down, making characters like Annie or Malzahar a premium in dealing with a high-speed mobility champ. It also means that the CC budget is far weaker, giving FAR more power to a champion's utility or kit while siphoning CC away from them.

In the focus of stripping away CC strength to stun/snares/etc, Riot backed themselves into a corner and forced displacement to be the norm, which in turn forced the game to focus more in getting and staying in (for melee) while ranged was pushed more toward keeping enemies away,

#Fixing the CC Triangle

I'm of the idea that the CC triangle should move back towards the rock-paper-scissor ratio, yet also improve on the counterplay of before. Tenacity was a good start but most of it was frontloaded into mercury treads. While certain characters have tenacity in their kit, I believe the stat needs an overhaul much akin to stats like crit.

For one thing, Tenacity should be a stat mostly for tanks or tanky bruisers. While available to assassins or ranged carries, it should be in far lesser quantities. In an ideal arena, tanks/juggernauts could sit around 50-60% tenacity MAX that would be spread across 2-3 items, making them potent mid-game threats but still vulnerable to displacement/heavy chain CC. Assassins/ADCs would sit at around 0-30% on certain niche items, such as Zephyr. This would give them a chance to fight back but not "tank" CC.

Second, after tenacity is improved, general CC should increase but only in the max levels. As an example: Fiddle sits around 1.25 at level one to 2.25 at level 5. I would imagine Fiddle would sit at 0.5 or 0.75 at level one at hit around 3-3.25 seconds at rank 5. This way, you're able to itemize against him by the time he's hitting heavy CC levels. This also means cleanse and QSS are now more useful, as they can remove CC that isn't just suppression.

But most of all: Add innate tenacity per CC. One of the biggest problems with modern league is the "pinball" effect of getting stunned, then snared, then knocked up, then suppressed, then killed. With innate tenacity per CC, it becomes harder (but not impossible) to chain CCs. Perhaps a 25-100% tenacity boost per CC landed. You'd have to chain more effectively while also being wary of which CC to hit with first and last.

This would also leave displacement as is, allowing it to still be useful but not the end-all. Hell, if this works you could even begin working on lowering mobility as it's easier to get in and stay in on targets!

#TL;DR

League began with heavy CC and a stat to counter it. This created a CC triangle. Riot opted to change their model and pushed towards weakning normal CC and adding more displacement. This, in turn, made melee weaker and forced more mobility to compete with being knocked away. The ease of balance early leads to problems late.

Riot should look into improving normal CC and tenacity while weakning CC chaining. From there, it can be easier to begin tuning back some long-standing mobility creep (Seasons 3-5 are the biggest offenders) while keeping the game in a relatively balanced state.

99 Comments

Mordepool94 votes

Riot Hire this person. Holy Shit you might even get a popular game again

Hibeki46 votes

One thing you forgot to mention is the speed of displacement. It needs tweaked too.

When you are up a gainst a wall, a knockback should not get you cc'd for the same duration. It triple dips on displacement.

#1) Moves you back a distance

#2) gives you extra time to get away because of the duration

#3) a microstun which lasts about a half second

Which adds up to a lee sin kick getting about 2 seconds of free CC on a point and click "displacement". Champions like Maokai basically have the duration DOUBLED because of the microstun. Champions like Riven can chain the knockup into the stun for a full 2 second period, etc. etc.

The microstuns is what infuriates me the most. i wouldnt have a damn problem with displacements even as a melee if it didnt have microstuns and the duration was reasonable.

ModCaptainMårvelous10 votes

Good point as well.

TeCoolMage5 votes

I would not add tenacity per CC, they make the game unnecessarily more difficult to play and balance especially with low stun duration allies, nerf all follow up champions (those that have strong CC but don't engage like Anivia and Vel'koz), and punish high CC teams in a game where mobility and damage are much more valuable.

With 60% tenacity, tanks should be able to tank 10s of CC (reduced to 4s), and if there's 5 players it's a pretty big and risky investment (single target focus, a bit less damage, tending towards lower mobility) and should be rewarded

Ifneth2 votes

{quoted}

I would not add tenacity per CC, they make the game unnecessarily more difficult to play and balance especially with low stun duration allies, nerf all follow up champions (those that have strong CC but don't engage like Anivia and Vel'koz), and punish high CC teams in a game where mobility and damage are much more valuable.

With 60% tenacity, tanks should be able to tank 10s of CC (reduced to 4s), and if there's 5 players it's a pretty big and risky investment (single target focus, a bit less damage, tending towards lower mobility) and should be rewarded

It also punishes the coordination of landing crowd control and causes weird meta-gaming where teams ‘wait’ to get the full value or ‘order’ their CC to put the long ones first or second and the shorter ones after. Yucky.

AbiwonKenabi4 votes

I completely disagree with adding "innate tenacity" to CC chains. Sure, it can be frustrating, but its often the result of good teamwork, something that sorely needs to be encouraged and often isn't enough. Waiting for the end of Morg's snare so you can Nami bubble with perfect timing feels good. A Lissandra that ults then times her snare perfectly feels good. If you're getting chain CC'd this easily, it's likely that either the enemy made a really sweet play and deserve to be rewarded, or your positioning was poor.

And thinking on the Lissandra example, why should Champions with two forms of CC be punished for chaining them? A lot of their power is going into those CC, it feels bad to punish them for that power allocation. Poor Nautilus' power is like 90% CC, I couldn't imagine him trying to function when after his hook, they get a grace period to get away from his slow-ass as he tries to auto attack snare them.

ModCaptainMårvelous2 votes

Fair points. Could always make it chain-CC from unique champions. So if Naut has you caught in the vortex, you can't get out. However, if Naut, Amumu, Zac and Malphite are tossing you around like a beachball it would be easier to escape.

Mordepool1 votes

Yeah since it's so hard to hit a Rooted target with another CC. I'd be fine with Chain CC if I'm still alive after the fact. That's not the case

TheWizardM1 votes

It's not hard to hit a rooted target, but it is hard to do so at the correct time to maximize your chain. It requires good teamwork, and can be near impossible if your team doesn't discuss it beforehand: it's far too likely that people try to cc someone at the exact same time.

Mordepool1 votes

The problem is damage creep has spiralled so excessively out of control that cc equals death regardless if you build Defensively. That's my problem with how the game has changed

TheWizardM1 votes

I agree, though it's not so much that damage has increased a ton - it's more that defensive capabilities have been reduced a ton.

Spoofghoul1 votes

both actually

but i also blame the dumb amounts of penetration and % damage in the game and now recently true damage

Try playing an AD tank like sion and see how even base stat resists scale up to negate a lot of your damage and then realize your armor isnt worth a damn

you end up grabbing cinderhulk and building AD items just so you can roam around blowing up anything squishier then you because that is just more effective then building tank these days

TheWizardM1 votes

That still discourages teamplay :|

  • cc chaining already has the risk of people escaping: if you're 0.1 second too slow with firing off your cc in a chain, soneone will just dash out.
Spoofghoul1 votes

if you have 3/2 second stuns you just fire the new cc 0.5 seconds in advance yea you wont be rooted for 5 seconds but for 4.5 instead big whoop ur still dead

a 10k health sion activating stoneplate doesn't even last that long

Eleshakai1 votes

One thing to take into account with this is that you're thinking of current world cc values. Now, I don't necessarily 100% agree with his points, but he's assuming this would exist in the post-cc-'rework' world. Right now chain cc turns 1-2 second stuns into a 5-6 second stun. In the world the OP is proposing, chaining cc without diminishing returns would mean turning a 3 second stuns into 12-15 seconds of cc duration. I feel like even 'good coordination' doesn't justify that type of length.

I suspect that, if this were to be a thing, the CC values of these multi-control champs would be adjusted so that their combo hit what they wanted despite the diminishing returns, so that can be accounted for in balancing. Or the champ can simply have a passive 'CC by this champ is not subject to diminishing returns'.

XeroKimo3 votes

Fixing the CC triangle will be a long journey and at this point, would change league as a whole. I personally think CC durations could be a cool balancing tool to work around, but in the end, I just don't see it happening. The game is relatively fast paced that being CCd for even a short amount of time is game changing. While mostly due to damage that makes it game changing and contributes to shaping modern CC duration, player dissatisfaction also plays a role. The prime example to look at is Morgana, who's CC ability has survived through the test of time, still has her Q last 3 seconds max all the way from season 1, there's a reason that the "I got an AFK warning" meme lasted for so long, because people didn't like not being able to move for so long, QSS wasn't a desirable option to buy, and tenacity was a item tied to merc treads so only tanks really ever got it. This, along with many other factors pushed CC to lower durations to the point that an average CC ability lasts ~1.5 seconds long, which is 0.5 seconds more than an average knock up, being 1 second long, which is also probably the reason that knockups are so prevalent as Riot's go to CC, as they can make it short, and be fair to all champions as they don't require a stat to shave off 0.5 seconds to make it be 1 second long.

WiccanBKaplan3 votes

The only point I wanna comment on is the Morgana statement as I doubt they will remove her 3s Root as they stated they are only looking into her w at most. Other than that I agree with the rest of your post. Properly said, 10/10 post mate.

Irelia Bot3 votes

Since most melee tend to build some health would perhaps making every 300 or 400 bonus health reduce displacements by 10% up to a max of 50% at 1500 or 2000 bonus health be a potential solution? It could also apply to armor and MR.

Also Riot could overhaul item 3056 make it have the active fortify the nearest turret for 5 seconds and doubling the attack speed and also add 25% tenacity. That would be an item I would highly consider for some situations.

On top of this perhaps add 25% Tenacity to a couple more items, reduce mercs to 25% and make it cap at 50% from items and runes then let Elixir of Iron increase your current Tenacity by 30% so a max of 65% tenacity only when you have the elixir going.

Ifneth6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=YAjVBX96,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-08-25T02:03:13.139+0000)

Since most melee tend to build some health would perhaps making every 300 or 400 bonus health reduce displacements by 10% up to a max of 50% at 1500 or 2000 bonus health be a potential solution? It could also apply to armor and MR.

This has been suggested many times and would break every champion who relies on displacements. Imagine Blitzcrank pulling someone and getting them only halfway over.

Also Riot could overhaul item 3056 make it have the active fortify the nearest turret for 5 seconds and doubling the attack speed and also add 25% tenacity. That would be an item I would highly consider for some situations.

This sounds like an item more designed to address your frustrations with being dove, chain-cc’d, and losing your toplane turret, than one the game could use. It would, after all, not even be worth a slot, much less any gold.

On top of this perhaps add 25% Tenacity to a couple more items, reduce mercs to 25% and make it cap at 50% from items and runes then let Elixir of Iron increase your current Tenacity by 30% so a max of 65% tenacity only when you have the elixir going.

Then non-displacement CC becomes useless against Tenacity stackers, causing a displacement meta.

GreatWhiteNorth3 votes

This person, given a chance, could save League of Legends.

InstaPoppy3 votes

You say displacements mostly fucks melee's and there is some truth in that but melee champions and especialy tanks are also the the ones most likely to have a displacement instead of normal cc. From a quick count 21 ranged champions have a displacement and 42 melee champions have one. For this count i considerd jayce and gnar melee because they can only use their displacements in melee form. I also considerd ability's like trundle pillar, taliyah wall and anivia wall displacements for this count even though they are not primarily used for the displacement.

Stephenizgod3 votes

I agree with almost all of this.

However another factor you didn't quite mention is Damage being increased slowly over the years. Before, getting Feared for 4 seconds was only a problem if the enemy team successfully targeted and Chain CC'd you. Yes it was annoying but it did require a bit of coordination not to mention it left the 4 remaining teammates to try and protect or attack. There was strategy in this, this was how Teamfights were fought. You try to chain CC their most problematic champions while they do the same, you build a team around trying to stop the chain CC or continue it. Certain champions were stronger at one or the other, and while the game was far from perfect, nearly the entire roster had a place with the exception of rare cases like old Yorick who was complete garbage (unless you played him a lot like I did :D).

Fast forward to today, getting feared for 1 second can mean death because of how much damage there is in the game. You get Feared, Assassin or Mage insta-kills you because you can't insta-kill them first anymore. There is a whole layer of how damage has been increasing that is also contributing to the CC problem you are describing. The more damage, the worse longer CC felt. So they stopped putting as many non-displacement CC's because it felt bad and wasn't very fun. But champions needed some kind of CC because certain champions were running rampant (cough Marksmen cough) at the expense of other champions (cough anyone who wasn't an assassin cough) so the rise of displacements. I remember the joke that every champion had a 3 hit stacking mechanic and a knock-up/back.

I think Damage being increased is the root cause of this issue personally.

Leto GT2 votes

Sorry to ask but could you specify what you mean by displacement? Janna R, Pyke Q and blitz Q? Are you trying to refer to "anything that can't be reduced by tenacity (including suppression and airborne)?

About the inner tenacity for cc chain. I can understand the idea. This has been implemented in MMO's.

BUT bear in mind that even with hundreds of hours of practice with the same ppl playing the same classes (sometimes for years) on the same add, it remains difficult to master while needing planning and communication. At the end, CC-based mechanics do tend to be removed. In ff14 for example, it's completely gone since the last expansion.

I can't really imagine this being implemented in league which is different every game in every possible way. Simply put, it does require some actual priority cc chain with perfect execution to not lose efficiency. Ppl might just give up on cc both on short and long run.

ModCaptainMårvelous3 votes

Sure! Displacement is any form of uncounterable CC that "moves" (be it pushing/pulling or a knock-up) your champion. Pyke Q, Blittz Q and Janna R all fall under that category. Displacement also often has a second "stun" built into the ability, meaning you can't just flash when being knocked-back. I'd have to find it but there was actually a video of Yi hard-countering displacements by cleansing during the displacement, followed by an instant Q because he wasn't stunned. Cool trick tbh.

While I agree that it's something in MMOs that require planning and learning the rotation, the main difference is that in MMOs, CC is often telegraphed by bosses and mobs. You see a big bar filling telling you "here comes the stun, interrupt or do something about it". MMOs also often have a built-in tool to shrug off CC such as in WoW, which I've been playing a lot of due to the new expansion.

League doesn't have that. The anti-CC button is behind a 1300g paywall (or at the cost of a summoner spell) and part of the CC reduction doesn't affect a large chunk of CC types. In addition, in MMOs (at least in WoW), displacement is very different and much more rare. Most CC in wow is stuns, snares, slows or otherwise with only a handful of spells forcing movement and most being tech choices/talents. I also think that while a CC chain might be hard, it's not that hard to pull off in a heavy communication environment. Plus, there's nothing wrong with a team game encouraging more communication-focused mechanics.

Plus, even if CC chains aren't effective/hard to do, you will still have innate stronger CC but less instances of HEAVY CC chains that make you feel like you couldn't do anything.

Leto GT2 votes

I do belive that CC chain as its purpose. It's annoying but it requires positioning so that the cc chain can't happen. That's part of the job of a tank. On the other side I'm thinking of garen, darius, I relia and nasus for example whom is kind of their only counter.

For the CC on MMO, I was referring to cc chain on adds. It's not that hard to pull off if you can plan it because it's repetitive. Even then, there often that guy who used his stun earlier for whatever reason that would require heavy com insta fix. In a pvp environment with high variance like league where you play mostly with unknown players without comms, it looks like to me hard to implement. I don't think it's a bad idea but I'm not sure it'll have the expected outcome...

I will nerf tanks or whatever champions having rotation around their cc. I would rather see a straight nerf to cc duration than a nerf in form of rng.

Saezio1 votes

I think it would be much more fair to be able to use abilities and autos while being displaced with the exception of movement abilities obviously.

glava2222 votes

I would also say the diminishing returns on cc are unnecessary in LoL. When ccing people there are 3 kinds of targets:

  1. squishies of all kinds(mages,adcs,assasins...), which dont need to be chain cced as they will die in the span of max 2 different hard ccs, possibly even less so chain ccing them is pointless
  2. tanks, which can take several ccs and survive the damage during that time. In this case the tanks are actually doing their jobs of keeping the carries safe and disrupting the enemy team while being cced and focused down
  3. juggernauts(and battlemages too,kinda) which get completely shut down by cc chaining, but i would argue in this case that is a good thing, since the juggernaut power fantasy is being this big guy who must be stopped by several people at once, and chain cc is meant to be their main weakness

i would say that all those 3 interactions are working as they should be so there is no need to implement diminishing returns. i do agree with the rest of the post tho

SwiftKitten882 votes

umm the issue isnt CC layering making it so u cant surive.. the issue is damage creep making it so u can survive if any for of cc hits you at all if your not DrMundo

Doctor Jarvis4 votes

Aren't the two tied up together? By making CC last for shorter periods, they had to push damage to increase the likelihood that you could actually do anything in the time. To fix it, they'd have to either tackle both at once (which is a lot of levers to handle) or take turns incrementally scaling both back

HollowMimic1 votes

I wouldn't mind them taking turns to incrementally scale them both back. I don't believe anyone likes to be perma-CCed nor getting oneshot from nowhere.

Ifneth1 votes

Riot has leaned on displacements not despite their ignoring Tenacity but because of it. Crowd control spells need long durations to more than inconvenience high-Tenacity champions, leaving squishy characters helpless if hit.

ModCaptainMårvelous10 votes

Well, that's the thing: You had displacement to inconvenience high-tenacity champions. When you see a Mundo, you should focus on getting displacement champions for peel rather than stun/snare/root/etc. champions. Now you don't have high duration CCs so displacements are almost always better.

The point is that there should be types of CC effective against certain types of champions. Riot has neglected the rock/paper/scissors and now you have grenade/paper/scissors.

GigglesO3 votes

They did it with damage via armor pen and hp too though. They are ignoring a lot of their core principles.

Just like how we always hear “we don’t balance around pro play” and”Ryze is on our radar to be pick/ban at worlds so we might nerf him”

D357R0Y3R2 votes

No, they said "we don't balance only around pro play"

but the likes of you want to trash them so hard that they change what they say

Irelia Bot5 votes

{quoted}

Riot has leaned on displacements not despite their ignoring Tenacity but because of it. Crowd control spells need long durations to more than inconvenience high-Tenacity champions, leaving squishy characters helpless if hit.

That is the whole idea. If you are squishy and get hit by CC you either use QSS to get out of it or get blown up. Did you start playing during the Ardent meta or something?

Pika Fox1 votes

Theres still plenty of stuns, fears etc in the game, and you havnt really provided a good reason the supposed change is an issue/problem. There really isnt a valid reason. Even if we assume the CC patterns are changing (in general they arent), is it such a negative that we move away from plenty of 4+s CC?

ModCaptainMårvelous3 votes

Actually yes.

CCs, snares, roots, etc. all still exist but the majority have been lowered to 1-2 seconds on average while still being countered by tenacity. Displacements are the same duration, at a glance, but then you remember there's also a time/resource cost to get back into a fight. This cost is more painful for melee, which leads to A.) bigger reward for getting in (Juggernauts) or B.) more tools to get in (Mobility on Divers/assassins).

The only time where 3-4 second CC is negative is when there's little-to-no counter to it. Tenacity wasn't working because it was frontloaded on one item (item 3111 ) and Riot constantly flopped between 30-40% as well as tenacity in kits/runes/masteries. I'm not saying we have to go all the way to the extreme of 5 second CCs but if CC was lower early, stronger late while also improving tenacity, you can make normal CC better, which in turn makes tenacity better, which in turn changes the relationship vs. displacements and so on.

It's a cascade effect that can change aspects of the game and can begin allowing for changes to mobility, as it's easier to get in/stay in, as well as displacements because they're not as strong.

Pika Fox1 votes

Few displacements actually displace you a good distance though, and almost all non ult displacements are like .25-.5s.

CC time in general has gone down because players just got better, and chaining CC is more common. If we still had insane CC duration we wouldnt be able to have the champions we have today because you couldnt put a CC on 3 of zacs abilities or alistars, and naut/leona would have like 14 seconds of CC each.

ModCaptainMårvelous2 votes

Depends on the displacement, as you said, but displacement by the merit of existing still hinders melee more than range. When you add in ultimate-based CC it's also far stronger, it's clear displacement is still often the best option to dealing with things. This also has a disproportionate effect in solo queue, where champs like Janna are stronger because they're simplier/more team agnostic.

You're also forgetting that while I call/ask for higher CC durations, I'm also saying we should improve the counter to generic CC and make it easier to obtain. Plus, you can also modify CC per champion. Most of Naut's CC is slow/displacement, making him the better choice vs. Leona's smaller and single-target stun, but with a change like this Leona can lock down a single target better than Naut can at the expense of having tenacity hit her harder. Plus in focusing on the max-level CC, champions like Naut/Leona will only get ridic CC timers late in the game or at the expense of skipping other abilities (IE: Leona has to max Q for the best stun time, which means weaker W which means more squishy sun goddess)

You might be right in saying that maybe CC across-the-board shouldn't be raised. However, in improving tenacity/generic CC, we can start looking at champs who have been weakened by the increase of displacement as well as champs who suffer greatest from CC lock scenarios (Mostly Juggernauts/slow melee)

Pika Fox1 votes

And what benefit would this bring? Fact of the matter is youd still be asking to add situations to the game where youre completely unable to act at all for 5-8s at a time again. That simply feels terrible as a player. Ultimately youd just add tenacity and everything else to deal with chain CC, and CC time in general wouldnt increase because people just dont like not being able to play league of legends. In order to remove someone's ability to play for 8s atm you need to run a full tank teamcomp and lose out on a lot of other things currently.

At least when you die youre dead, so theres a reason you cannot actually do anything that does feel more reasonable and fair to the player.

ModCaptainMårvelous3 votes

It gives you a stronger tool to balance for characters who are mobile and build raw, flat damage with no consequence to build path? Part of the issue with ADCs/Assassins is that their build paths often necessitate glass cannon builds and the only counter to them is "burst them before they burst you". Controlling them is often not an option as they're quite far back. You'll often see "miracle" teamfights as a time where someone got a lucky Sejuani ult/shockwave, which leads to insta-burst.

In making CC longer, you can afford more defensive tools to carries because they can be in situations where they can be locked down, which lowers damage. I also think (and this might be controversial) that league relies too much on "But does it FEEL good?" when it comes to design philosophy. In trying to make things feel good, you come to situations where a player isn't properly punished for what they did due to it not feeling good. We see it today, as runes/masteries/items/champ design have all pushed to making players feel great even though you can never 100% do that.

You're also assuming that by adding tenacity, you're just making CC last the same amount of time, which isn't true. For non-squishies CC time would remain the same and you can add tools to champs who are affected most by CC, namely juggernauts and low-mobility melee. It also means that by making them easier to stay in, you can remove some of their absurd power curves for getting in, allowing less binary gameplay of "I'm in, GG" or "I can't get close Surrender at 20"

Point is, you can afford longer CC times at the expense of removing damage and increasing durability, which leads to situations where you're punished but not instagibbed unless you're absurdly far ahead, which in turn can lead to healthier gameplay patterns as it's more about proper usage of your CDs and abilities instead of looking for the miracle pick that explodes your carry. (See: Syndra stun into ult or Zoe bubble into Cataclysmic meteor)

FixHealsRemoveGW1 votes

I never perceived cc chains as a problem, they are a good expression of teamwork and they make good decisions/positioning more rewarding and bad decisions/positioning more punishing.

Making cc chains less punishing would actually make the game more casual and result in damage being traded even faster in fights. Not sure if you really want that.

If you want tenacity for tanks and bruisers there is a rather simple solution. Give all champions tenacity and let it scale with armor, mr and health. So if you build defensive you automatically get more "tenacious". Ofc that would remove the "impactful decision" to buy mercs, but then again i can't imagine that anyone really likes being forced to decide between ninja tabi and mercs. When you are a tank it always feels like you need both effects.

DemainaNyx1 votes

Agreed. To be fair though, we have to define CC and how the chaining would work. Because technically slows, silences, disarms, and blinds are a form of CC despite not being a hard CC. For chaining, does one need to end before the next is applied or does the second CC just have reduced effectiveness, and for how long is the next reduced after you eat a CC?

If CC chaining didn't exist, we'd have to rework Ashe because her slows would be less and less impactful if she hit the same person, which is basically her whole point as a champion is keeping people slowed forever.

I realize most people are talking about hard CCs, like Morgana Q into Caitlyn Trap combos, but it would hurt more than just those champions if they couldn't chain. Even Caitlyn alone can have up to 5 traps and a net with a cooldown on how often you can eat a trap to begin with. If the enemy ate net and then into a trap, her traps would be less impactful on that champion, which is her only way of defending herself outside of summoners. Seems like it would completely break her kit if her net was a slow, so the first trap held for a 1.25 instead of the full 1.5, and the next for 1, next for .75, etc.

Had a game just recently where I basically facechecked a Yi as Caitlyn, got him in two traps with a 3rd to zone which was enough for me to get away after we both blew flash. He would've easily killed me without those traps and nearly did anyway so that reduced CC timing would have totally screwed me there.

FixHealsRemoveGW1 votes

If you change cc you need to rebalance all champions anyway so your example with YI becomes redundant. But there should be a good reason to do this and "knock up is king" or "displacements are the norm" doesn't really convince me. There are plenty of hard cc spells that last much longer than knock ups. In general knock ups are actually rather short, reliable, but short. I also wouldn't compare displacements to hard cc, because displacements have their own unique utility of displacing enemies. The power of displacement against melee is also just a one-sided analysis, displacements tend to be even more punishing against ranged champions that rely on kiting and keeping distance. Getting hooked towards enemies on a ranged champion is way more punishing then getting hooked/knocked away from a fight on melee champions. But again it's unique utility and not just some standard cc spell. Overall I do not think that the OP made a good analysis of the supposed issue. It reads like a one sided narrative that completely ignores possible contradictions. It's also clearly in favor of melee champions and immobile champion... almost like the OP likes to play Mundo.

Revert Skarner1 votes

This thread is inherently and completely Genius.

Riot should hire you, 100%.

While you're in there you should push for a Skarner Revert!

;)

QancerClown1 votes

GJ. Nice post.

Jetboost1 votes

Good points but there should in your case also be a limit to the inate bonus % tenacity gained i don't want to have a tank sprinting after me while imune to CC.

PowerHouseLegend1 votes

I agree with aloooott of what you said and that innate tenacity, I remember bringing that point up in one of my posts (probs the ranty one) and people just hard disagreed. I would say that the 25% -100% would be a little much. I would opt for a 15% per cc stacking multiplicatively, and have it effect knockups since their durations can alter between champ skills.

Great post man, keep analyzing the game.

crazÿ1 votes

or if they should remove damage from cc idk why cc deal alot of damage

Pianoasis1 votes

For one thing, Tenacity should be a stat mostly for tanks or tanky bruisers. While available to assassins or ranged carries, it should be in far lesser quantities.

Personally, I think carries deserve forgiveness when it comes to hard cc (suppression, standard stun, silence etc.) because there are those exceptions who lack engage and solo pressure but excell at other things (teamfight disruption, seige, vision control) Kalista Jinx .

I do see where your qualms lie though at the same time. Many carries who aren't dependent upon auto attacks to execute but benefit from precision runes are left with an easy decision, lifesteal (useless on ap) versus free tenacity (useful on every champion).

What I think should be done to remedy this is a change to these precision runes that everyone may be in favor for: reducing the stat gain for assists versus kills.

This will make all in assassins more all or nothing in their early game fights while also rewarding them for trying. As it stands now certain assassins are just getting free pressure for roaming and that can't be healthy to gameplay in any elo.

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