So it has been bothering me for awhile now.. Why does Garen's passive not get stopped by all damage, just champ damage? And why can't his spinning be stopped by stuns? Why not have the passive get put on cooldown from monster or minion damage as well as towers and champs? Garen defies the laws of the other skills and abilities as he is right now. His ult is something I won't get into.. fix the first 2 and he will be easier to deal with.
Dominick Destine4 votesGaren probably has the most counter play of any character in the game.
OP has to be tremendously bad to ask for Garen nerfs.
Crett3 votesIf Garen couldn't even get near minions without putting his passive on CD, it wouldn't be nearly as good.
SuicideJ1 voteshe can hit minions all day as long as he isn't the aggro. How does no one understand this? So you suck with every other champion because you don't know how to not aggro minions? You are admitting that you need a OP passive to perform any type of task otherwise you don't use strategy, teamwork, communication, warding, and a million other things that make a player as good as they are. "You just need to learn to be better."
ChargeItDownMid3 votes[deleted]
SuicideJ1 votesSo how are half of you telling me he isn't good and the other half that he takes skill. These are not inherently the same thing. Skill doesn't mean you are good if you chase kills and lose objectives. Good doesn't mean you win, or even beat your opponent, it doesn't mean you are over powered. It means you are smart. These are basic steps to being actually good. Like having a 0/3 deficit and turning it into a 12/5/9 postitive with 5 turrets, 2 inhibs, and upsetting their entire team.. That makes you a decent player.
ChargeItDownMid4 votes[deleted]
SuicideJ1 votesThen why does he have a high ban rate?
MasterSomething1 votesBecause it's like going against Teemo, but easier and tankier.
SuicideJ1 votesNotice how teemo is practically nonexistent now..
Critmaster Garen2 votesit used to work like that. it was basically like not having a passive at all.
when i have to use the passive to heal up, i cant get close to minions and risk getting poked. so basically its a decision between, do i want to sacrifice cs to be able to stay in lane, or do i want to walk too close to my opponent and risk getting killed.
SuicideJ1 votesEvery other champ has that same problem (minus the healing passive) every time they go into combat. You won't proc minions aggro if you don't stand in front of minions and/or let the enemy hit you, and/or hit the enemy champ and cause minions to hit you. Very simple really. I can do this with pretty much any champion.
Critmaster Garen2 votesEvery other champ has that same problem (minus the healing passive) every time they go into combat. You won't proc minions aggro if you don't stand in front of minions and/or let the enemy hit you, and/or hit the enemy champ and cause minions to hit you. Very simple really. I can do this with pretty much any champion.
every other champion has either mobility or ranged abilities to trade back when he gets poke.
even olaf can throw axes at minions to get some farm or trade back against poke. or mundo who can throw cleavers. garen is one of the few champions without either hard engage/escape, or any form of ranged ability.
he needs this safety net to be able to stay in lane under constant harass.
the combination of lacking in combat sustain (lifesteal isnt an attractive option for him), range, or real mobility is the reason why hes more upfront tanky and has his passive sustain mechanic.
SuicideJ1 votesHe also is resourceless and a lot of the champs I play top don't have random ranged skills that you can harass with. You sacrifice fighting power for harass. Garen has an ability that increases movement speed and his spin to win will hurt anyone that tries to melee him as he is stunned or other because it won't stop, but it will damage them. Tanks don't need safety nets because they are tanks. If you are building him wrong that is your problem. Building him and playing him as anything other than a tank will make him terrible. There are plenty of Garen mains that did good with him before the rework. They just had to learn how to play. Not lower the skillcap.
Critmaster Garen1 votesHe also is resourceless and a lot of the champs I play top don't have random ranged skills that you can harass with. You sacrifice fighting power for harass. Garen has an ability that increases movement speed and his spin to win will hurt anyone that tries to melee him as he is stunned or other because it won't stop, but it will damage them. Tanks don't need safety nets because they are tanks. If you are building him wrong that is your problem. Building him and playing him as anything other than a tank will make him terrible. There are plenty of Garen mains that did good with him before the rework. They just had to learn how to play. Not lower the skillcap.
i played him through all his reworks since 2010, and every aspect youre complaining about, especially considering his lane phase was either nerfed or the same before his recent rework.
garens passive is the same. his spin damage is lower until lvl 7 and only significantly stronger at lvl 16 and against the villain. they even nerfed the duration on the silence by a whole second.
garen isnt a tank. and a relatively weak movemnt speed buff is still not much of a mobility tool. at least not compared to hard gap closers and dashes that most champs have available.
he also doesnt have any movement imairing cc that hepls him sticking once hes in melee. it sounds like youre trying to cc him while hes already in your face, instead of when he activates his q.
SuicideJ1 votesHave you ever chased a Garen before? I can usually rip his face off normally if he chooses to fight me. But if he decides he can't win he will take off like a rocket and you can't do much to stop him and he is fast. His passive changed from what Garen mains have told me because it used to cancel his passive if he took any damage. Someone who takes a ton of damage and doesn't die is more or less a tank in the general definition. How you build him personally may not be a tank. That's your choice. He doesn't need CC to stick to anyone when he has speed boosts to catch you then spin at an amazing speed to damage you the entire way. Most of the "hard cap closers and dash" champs that you are referring too are mostly assassins. Not a super healing monster.
MasterSomething1 votesI detect salt from going against Garen
Garen is slightly ridiculous, but realize that's all he is- He just silences, spins, and executes if you are low enough. His combo is predictable beyond belief, and you can easily bait him into bad situations.
Shac Norris2 votesThe only problem is that now, you can't rely on minions to stop his passive.
You have to actually get close to him and harass him if you don't want him to regen all of his hp in 30 seconds, and by doing so, you're putting yourself in a dangerous position.
junglerboy164 votesMinions haven't stopped it for a long time, that's how it has been for the past 4 seasons or so (since august 2012). You haven't been able to rely on minions to block his passive for ages, you are supposed to poke him to keep it down (which is not hard at all.
Shac Norris2 votesif you play a melee champ against garen, it's most likely that you'll lose 50% of your hp if you don't die if you try to harass him lol
junglerboy162 votes
All of them are melee, all of them are decent to very strong top lane, and all of them have easy access to moderate to long ranged harass, whether it's a long range skillshot or a low counterplay trade pattern. (I know that not all of these are common top laners and that some are bad matchup for other reasons, but your generalization is still faulty).
Some melees do struggle really hard against Garen, but not all by a long shot.
SuicideJ2 votesSo you "counter" "generalization" with generalization? He never said that there aren't champs that do counter him. But you can stomp your hard counter by being better than them.
Shac Norris1 votesHit him once, his passive comes back up, hit him twice, his passive comes back up, but your mana isn't coming up as fast as his hp is.
SuicideJ1 votesNotice how he has a 100% ban rate right now since he has no fear of being hit by champs since they will take minion aggro and he will heal up and stay in lane indefinitely. Minions hitting him and shutting his passive down means he has to play save. He can still heal just has to be more cautious about it. They went overboard with him and didn't think of the consequences of him being even stronger than before.
MasterSomething1 votesPoke him with abilities from a distance and he doesn't have a passive.
SuicideJ1 votesSo I HAVE to play a champ with some shape or form of a poke in their kit. Hate to break it to you, but a lot of champs don't have that. Telling me that is the way to counter him means he can't be countered by a lot of champs. Tell Rito to put a ranged ability on every champ then you might have a valid argument. Making someone play a ranged champ doesn't mean you get all the goodies.
Critmaster Garen3 votesSo I HAVE to play a champ with some shape or form of a poke in their kit. Hate to break it to you, but a lot of champs don't have that. Telling me that is the way to counter him means he can't be countered by a lot of champs. Tell Rito to put a ranged ability on every champ then you might have a valid argument. Making someone play a ranged champ doesn't mean you get all the goodies.
what champ are you playing that doesnt have either mobility or poke? even trundle can just throw a pillar in his face when garen runs at him.
NemeBro1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zzJyd6dh,comment-id=0001000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-03T01:11:02.574+0000)
what champ are you playing that doesnt have either mobility or poke? even trundle can just throw a pillar in his face when garen runs at him.
Or he could just beat Garen's ass when Garen tries to fight the guy who can steal his AD, has heavy sustain, good sustained damage, and can steal his tank stats.
SuicideJ1 votesBut then you HAVE to play Trundle. Now you are forced to play a champ that counters Garen, when you may or may not know you are against a Garen.
junglerboy161 votesExcept for the countless other champs that play strongly against him. You keep twisting the meaning of every sentence thrown at you because you're salty and whiney.
Your faulty logic isn't really amusing anymore, can you please stop?
SuicideJ1 votesHow am I salty and whiny? I am not losing to Garen.. Your lack of logic is astounding. I have taken an objective stance that uses critical logic and looked at him from the scope of "what does he do" and "how well does he do it." So, according to your logic, everyone MUST play a ranged harass champ. That isn't diversity. That's playing a champ because you are scared of another champ. Not playing a champ you are good at that you can play well against everyone. You haven't even provided proof of where my "faulty logic" is. So I'm assuming you have none.
SuicideJ1 votesMobility doesn't help a whole lot with the current Minion Block that Rito has going. Pathing is terrible and you can get killed cuz you can't get away. I've taken 4 turret shots where I should have taken 1. Just because of minions. I tend to play Volibear and I do really well with him and can come back from deficits pretty easily. He has a mobility skill, but it is not very fast until you get boots. No range poke other than an aoe slow that fears minions. It has a long cooldown and Garen will be back up in health before that. Any poke skill will not have a good CD (excluding Mundo and maybe Pantheon, oh and Vlad) once I rolling thunder Garen I have no mobility to catch him, he runs away. But you are a Garen Fanboy that will not look at this without any type of bias.
junglerboy161 votesUm, what the hell gave you that number?
On LoLKing he has a measly 1% ban rate, and even on Champion.gg which views plat and above he still has only an 11.27% ban rate.
Read the actual statistics for a change, it makes you sound less blatantly wrong if your numbers are actually real.
SuicideJ1 votesWorlds my friend. Worlds. Every match he was banned. Don't you know everything Rito does in League is because of Worlds and Pros. Rito doesn't care about anything except Pro play. The numbers are real, they just are not YOUR numbers.
Reket DeAlk2 votesWorlds my friend. Worlds. Every match he was banned. Don't you know everything Rito does in League is because of Worlds and Pros. Rito doesn't care about anything except Pro play. The numbers are real, they just are not YOUR numbers.
http://lol.esportspedia.com/wiki/2015_Season_World_Championship/Picks_and_Bans/Bracket_Stage
Just gonna leave this here. Just went through every single match for picks/bans. Not a single Garen. Ever. Anywhere.
Soooo...What numbers are you talking about now?
Sightless663 votesUh.... still wrong. Garen wasn't picked or banned at Worlds even once. Seriously, here are the picks and bans. Literally not even once. Morde and GP were banned or picked almost 100% of the time, maybe that's what you're thinking of.
Gigahappytown2 votesI detect salt from going against Garen
Garen is slightly ridiculous, but realize that's all he is- He just silences, spins, and executes if you are low enough. His combo is predictable beyond belief, and you can easily bait him into bad situations.
yeah this despite garens low skillcap he takes some skill to play at higher elos
SuicideJ1 votesA predictable combo doesn't mean anything if you are smart enough to take advantage of situations. Why are they upset Warwick can be played in higher Elo with his low skillcap but not Garen? There are other champs that could have been juggernauts. You can only bait someone if they are dumb enough to take the bait. Good players won't and if you are in higher Elo I'd imagine that there are fewer dumb players as they would not moved up in Elo if they were. Skill is a person to person thing. I'm sure there were Garens before the rework that could still wreck face with Garen. So this means they are forcing skill to be less skill and more popular by being stronger. Custom matches are not Garen "saltiness". Just critiquing the difficulty in killing him, his skills and his utility from each skill.
SuicideJ1 votesI just picked him at random out of champs hard to kill in a Custom match. The purpose of minion aggro is to punish you for attacking with an enemy minion wave all around you. Not just heal up and its another thing that doesn't bother you. It isn't salt. It's a critical point of view. The fact that his spin can't be stopped, he heals regardless of damage except by champs, His execute, which does 20% more damage passively to the villain and does that same damage on the ult, is super overpowered but that's a different story entirely, he has movement speed galore, which is build with a silence attached, etc. He is a juggernaut. He can handle a little damage lol
trash sion1 votesIf minions stopped his regen, he may as well not have a passive at all. It would almost never be up.
SuicideJ2 votesThen you back out and wait til you heal then go in! What is wrong with you people? Does anyone not have skill anymore? If you hit a champ and he doesn't hit back then you get minion aggro. You are SUPPOSED to be PUNISHED for getting minion aggro. Not rewarded. You can still farm without minions hitting you, it's called STAY BEHIND YOUR MINIONS!!
1st Movement1 votesHe's so easy to win against he's not even op
SuicideJ1 votesIf you are a quick champion like quinn and you can poke him, he is decisively easy to destroy. Sadly, those champs can get destroyed early on by ganks and then the snowballing happens. In this current patch a snowball is essentially a you lose unless you have mucho skill.
