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Moving Kog's attack speed passive from Q to W won't make him a viable ADC again. (Opinion)

Packun Flower··15 votes·1,882 views

Sorry Riot, but you essentially killed AD Kog'Maw when you removed the AD scaling from his W, for once Kog'Maw was able to see some play as a proper ADC, but by removing the AD scaling there is no reason to build AD on him anymore.

The bottom line is, if your going to list Kog as an ADC he needs a Reason to build AD items. Yes he has the attack speed steroid, but attack speed alone does not make him an ADC, with the AD scaling gone from his W Kog'Maw gets more damage and utility by building AP, which is why we now see Kog'maw as an AP Mid Laner, AP kog can kite and dish out better poke and burst then AD Kog.

I never ever see anyone take him bot anymore.

I've been around for awhile and I have seen Riot do some stupid changes, but what they did to Kog'maw was by far the dumbest I have ever seen. They reworked Kog'Maw so people would play him more, well, people did play him, they played him TO much, and they didn't like that, so they nerfed Kog'Maw right out of bot lane and put him in mid lane where any assassin can dominate him.

This change won't fix AD Kog.

27 Comments

SpecterVonBaren6 votes

Except AD Kog was dead with the rework, the loss of AD scaling only reduced his late game scaling by a smidge. There's no reason to build AD and crit on a champ that does 55% of their AD per auto when you can build on hit effects that don't get reduced at all.

I don't like the rework either but your basis for why it's bad is incorrect.

Rebonack2 votes

{quoted}

Except AD Kog was dead with the rework, the loss of AD scaling only reduced his late game scaling by a smidge. There's no reason to build AD and crit on a champ that does 55% of their AD per auto when you can build on hit effects that don't get reduced at all.

I don't like the rework either but your basis for why it's bad is incorrect.

Taking into account two auto-attacks = one while Kog's W is up, before the AD ratio was removed Kog effectively amplified the power of all AD built on him by ~x1.5 to x2 depending on how much HP the target had. It made AD focused builds quite viable, which made Kog's Ult hit like a howitzer. The change to W shoehorned Kog into pure OnHit builds.

SpecterVonBaren5 votes

Hardly. If you look at it on paper it looks like it equals out but in reality the fact that you have to stand still while using his W to get the full power out of it makes a measly 10% increase in physical damage terrible.

The lack of ability to kite with his new W is huge for factoring in what is viable with Kog. An on hit build will always be the superior route so long as he needs to stand still to maximizehis damage before someone jumps on him and kills him.

Lets say you could get an item that brings your AD to 100 and deal 110 damage over two autos, why do that when you could build and item that gives you 100 magic damage per auto and deal 200 damage over two autos?

Rebonack2 votes

{quoted}

Hardly. If you look at it on paper it looks like it equals out but in reality the fact that you have to stand still while using his W to get the full power out of it makes a measly 10% increase in physical damage terrible.

The lack of ability to kite with his new W is huge for factoring in what is viable with Kog. An on hit build will always be the superior route so long as he needs to stand still to maximizehis damage before someone jumps on him and kills him.

1.25% max HP damage per 100 AD.

Focus almost wholly on high AD items. Don't concern yourself much with attack speed, Kog's W covers that. It made each individual attack hit hard with attack speed low enough to allow him to still kite decently without losing too much damage. That's in addition to his Ult having a hefty chunk of AD to boost it like crazy so he had a source of damage even when his W was down.

The build worked fine, but everyone was so focused on 5.0 attack speed that they forgot that hitting twice as hard half as much is significantly better than hitting half as hard twice as much.

drake102nd2 votes

there are basicaly two ways to build kog low AS items but high AD. or a mix of AS and AD i run item 3153 , item 3124 , item 3812 , item 3085 , item 3006 , (item 3146 or item 3139 or item 3072 )

the last three are the options based on situation.

ferver of battle with this and you get high on hit damage from rage blade (around 500 or so). and 3% max hp magic damage and 3% max hp physical damage per hit 20% LS plus the anti burst from Deaths Dance. At full build the only threat to you is a rammus. nothing else. you will hit around 4.6 AS at full rage blade stacks. combo this with a Nunu, WW, Janna, or Lulu. and you're basically set for the win. you wont die unless they perma cc you, or do Leblanc things.which your team should be protecting you from.

it goes from kill the enemy team to the old PROTECT KOG'MAW, WIN GAME!!! he can kill towers just as fast as a full build trist but has more reliable damage at range and is harder to kill. due to life steal procking on the BORK % hp proc.

tho i will agree he is not supreamly viable compared to someeone like jinx or MF. neither of them can out dual a darius 1v1 when he has three items to your two.

plus late game kog gets a 1000 magic damage execute if they're below 25% max HP

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

there are basicaly two ways to build kog low AS items but high AD. or a mix of AS and AD i run item 3153 , item 3124 , item 3812 , item 3085 , item 3006 , (item 3146 or item 3139 or item 3072 )

The mystifying thing is that Riot decided to nerf AD heavy builds.

"Okay, we want Kog to be a hyper-carry, so we're making him scale really well with both AD and OnHit effects."

"Oh wait, never mind. Giving him two build choices was a bad idea. OnHit effects only."

drake102nd1 votes

Aye, but really TBH the only other champ that really works with a similar build is kayle.

but if you think about it how many other champs have more then 1 or 2 build paths. control mages you build AP... thats basicaly the gist of it.

assassins... ALL THE DAMAGE.

tanks... well... tanky.

marksmen... crit, LS and damage.

supports are the most flexable. AP or Utility.

bruisers... tanky and damage.

there are variations on the builds like trinity or iceborn on susan etc. but in the end champs all have two or three items they need. for KogMaw its bork rage blade and DD. then the rest are luxuries. with just bork and rage blade you can out dual most other champs in the game who are even or a little head of you.

Rendarkan3 votes

The only way to go with KogMaw is item 3153 item 3115 item 3089 item 3135 item 3091 item 3285

Rebonack3 votes

{quoted}

The only way to go with KogMaw is item 3153 item 3115 item 3089 item 3135 item 3091 item 3285

Drop the Bork and replace it with Rageblade and you've got the standard Ap Marksmen Kog build. Just toss in sorc boots in place of the hat.

Rendarkan1 votes

Usually my build is flexible. I've built full AS before with RFC and its hilarious. I don't peticularly like the Rift so I play him on ARAM which has a much different feel and playstyle for me at least.

drake102nd2 votes

yeah but what this build lacks is survivability. hence the need for a item 3812 . or item 3139

i drop the wit's end because your ult does so much raw damage on the execute that its not needed. and tho it is nice against full MR teams. its not a must have item over hurricane or rage blade.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

Except that building solely high AD items means you come online even LATER than you do with on hit Kog. All the high AD items cost 3600 or 3700 gold while on hit items cost a lot less. Kog is already incredibly weak early and without his items, so much so that people don't have much reason to pick him NOW, why would you focus on an AD build that takes even LONGER to finish in a meta that's all about the early game?

And if you're just building him AD then you might as well pick a different marksman because you could build the same thing on them while also not having the worst early game in the game and being safer to boot.

Champion Skin3 votes

AD still works just fine 40 On-hit damage = 72 AD = 36 AD with crit = 28.8 AD with IE Crit

So honestly you don't really need that much AD to match on-hit damage if you Crit especially with IE

HongChongDong5 votes

Have you seen on hit kog???? Plop a Botrk, Rageblade, Fervor of battle mastery, Runaans, BT, and Hextech gunblade and watch him shred like no ones business.

Sightless667 votes

Yes, we've all seen it, and no one is impressed.

Rebonack5 votes

I honestly have no idea what they're thinking with this attack speed shuffling. Kog usually rushes Rageblade and should be maxing Q first for the high base damage, the resist shred, and the attack speed. Pick up Blasting Wand first for Rageblade and your Q hits like a truck. This change will shoe-horn Kog into maxing W first, which still isn't giving him very much for the point investment. People have been maxing Q first because it makes Kog's early game a little less awful.

Unless Riot's goal is to make Kog's early game even worse? At this point I have no idea.

Lady Hammerlock1 votes

{quoted}

I honestly have no idea what they're thinking with this attack speed shuffling. Kog usually rushes Rageblade and should be maxing Q first for the high base damage, the resist shred, and the attack speed. Pick up Blasting Wand first for Rageblade and your Q hits like a truck. This change will shoe-horn Kog into maxing W first, which still isn't giving him very much for the point investment. People have been maxing Q first because it makes Kog's early game a little less awful.

Unless Riot's goal is to make Kog's early game even worse? At this point I have no idea.

rushing rageblade is a terrible idea...i prefer BORK

DeathBurst3 votes

Also, he's not listed as "ADC, he's listed as "Marksman", which basically means "auto-attack reliant kit with range". Kog certainly fits the bill.

Kaiser Noah3 votes

Kog is fine.

Rebonack1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kaiser Noah,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zypvgcpV,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-01-29T21:10:37.496+0000)

Kog is fine.

Compared to who, Urgot?

Kaiser Noah1 votes

{quoted}

Compared to who, Urgot?

Are you a potato.

4thHorsman2 votes

He's a marksman, not an ADC

arcinex2 votes

You are bronze with zero games on Kog'Maw. Your opinion is very valid. 10/10. You must really know the ins and outs of Kog'Maw.

Wimbledofy1 votes

No champ in the game is listed as an adc. So kog'maw cannot possibly be listed as an adc. You are thinking of marksman and markman DO NOT HAVE TO BUILD AD. Teemo is a perfect example of a marksman that does not build ad. Azir is also considered a marksman.

SOMalphas1 votes

Here's the thing about Crit on AD Kog, you need to be critting almost twice as much to get the same damage as another adc, making him twice as RNG based.

To put it simply, you rely too much on luck being in your favor to make it worth building him ADC. On-hit, on the other hand, does not have this problem, but needs to be on a team with primarily ad champs to make up for the fact that he does primarily magic damage.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

Here's the thing about Crit on AD Kog, you need to be critting almost twice as much to get the same damage as another adc, making him twice as RNG based.

To put it simply, you rely too much on luck being in your favor to make it worth building him ADC. On-hit, on the other hand, does not have this problem, but needs to be on a team with primarily ad champs to make up for the fact that he does primarily magic damage.

If Riot tweaked the balance of Pillager a bit and imported it over to Rift then that would help crit Kog a bit.

Its bleed doesn't care about Bio-Arcane's self-inflicted damage nerf.

PrinceBedazzled1 votes

People dont seem to realize how powerful kog is with a coordinated team and a good comp. and riot keeps buffing him. Mark my words hes gonna be insane down the line in competative and get nerfed

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