Finally, the change no one asked for, wanted and was just overall dumb, is being removed.

Packun Flower·Oct 23, 2018·135 votes·22,513 views

https://i.imgur.com/NqoSRov.png

This was honestly the most stupid thing ever to hit league's Rift in my opinion, I'm glad to see it being removed next season.

69 Comments

anhatonOct 23, 201845 votes

FUCKING YES!

Finally it just took them how many fucking seasons to get rid of this stupid ass Minion scaling, my god Riot wtf is up with you people taking forever with bullshit like this?

Dasdi96Oct 24, 201825 votes

{quoted}

FUCKING YES!

Finally it just took them how many fucking seasons to get rid of this stupid ass Minion scaling, my god Riot wtf is up with you people taking forever with bullshit like this?

3 seasons. It is a snowballing mechanic that riot said is a comeback mechanic. When a team is behind, then can no longer contest any neutral objective and even their own jungle because the enemy waves are always pushing.

BarcidOct 24, 201823 votes

The macro reason why it's a "comeback mechanic" is that basically enemies would have to maintain pressure especially hard to keep up in CS, so if they allowed their lanes to just push, the enemy would get far more CS and so would get far more gold essentially.

In practice, it just choked the fuck out of the team that was behind and made them have to give up basically everything as well as cover three lanes at once, meaning towers could just get forced down by the enemy (if somebody had to break off to clear a side lane) or towers would just naturally fall from neglect due to the eternal minion presence (if your team wanted to try and stand and fight together).

Iota ThetaOct 24, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=Toxic Control,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RqN8hFkW,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-24T03:10:50.344+0000)

The macro reason why it's a "comeback mechanic" is that basically enemies would have to maintain pressure especially hard to keep up in CS, so if they allowed their lanes to just push, the enemy would get far more CS and so would get far more gold essentially.

In practice, it just choked the fuck out of the team that was behind and made them have to give up basically everything as well as cover three lanes at once, meaning towers could just get forced down by the enemy (if somebody had to break off to clear a side lane) or towers would just naturally fall from neglect due to the eternal minion presence (if your team wanted to try and stand and fight together).

A good example of good intentions but horrible execution.

Automated RivenOct 25, 20181 votes

To be fair, nobody really expected that to be the outcome. It snuck up on us. Some people may have predicted it but most of us thought it was fine, it took a few patches to realize it worked poorly.

EddardStark84Oct 26, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RqN8hFkW,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-25T05:02:09.070+0000)

To be fair, nobody really expected that to be the outcome. It snuck up on us. Some people may have predicted it but most of us thought it was fine, it took a few patches to realize it worked poorly.

Huh? This change was UNIVERSALLY hated at the time and Riot was warned over and over before this went live that it was a poorly thought out solution to a problem that needed solving.

MarshbouyOct 24, 20182 votes

SO THIS IS WHY MINIONS ARE CONSTANTLY SHOVED TO MY TOWER!

Critmaster GarenOct 24, 201816 votes

instead theyre making turrets worth 3 to 4 times the gold.

if im reading this correctly, an outer turret is going to be worth 800 gold.

Sire HippingtonOct 24, 201823 votes

yes, though you need to get 5000damage done against increaseing resstences befor the 14 min mark, not sure how realistic those 800g are.

Still, pretty sure early push/siege champs like cait or about any ranged top(especially quinn) will be very happy with that.

Iota ThetaOct 24, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RqN8hFkW,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-10-24T01:32:56.414+0000)

yes, though you need to get 5000damage done against increaseing resstences befor the 14 min mark, not sure how realistic those 800g are.

Still, pretty sure early push/siege champs like cait or about any ranged top(especially quinn) will be very happy with that.

Don’t forget with a larger temporary bonus if more than one enemy champ is nearby, and that’s per champ outside the first, although people may still pull off like I’ve seen done for first tower, but that leaves a member exposed. That bonus is gonna be massive if all 5 are sieging at once.

Leto GTOct 24, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RqN8hFkW,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-10-24T01:32:56.414+0000)

yes, though you need to get 5000damage done against increaseing resstences befor the 14 min mark, not sure how realistic those 800g are.

Still, pretty sure early push/siege champs like cait or about any ranged top(especially quinn) will be very happy with that.

Will require good map awarness tho because it sets you up for big gank windows. Would definitly be great if it comes along nice warding. I'm kinda hyped of that.

Radiant SeraphOct 24, 20181 votes

Ask Ziggs how realistic that gold is. He'll get fed just by casting a single W.

Z3SleeperOct 24, 20182 votes

I can almost guarantee you it won't work that way. He'll most likely only be able to satchel 1 plate off.

3TWarriorOct 24, 20181 votes

if it even works at all. his ability is to demolish a "tower" after all when its health reaches a certain percentage

Z3SleeperOct 24, 20182 votes

Which is why I believe that each section of the tower effectively will act as having separate health. This would mean he could "execute" each section at the % threshold of that section's health.

Which would mean he could only execute the tower itself if the plates were all gone and the actual health of the turret was within the threshold.

{quoted}

each section is a hp shield, its not its own unique tower, u cant satchel charge its shield

There you have it.

FatedSaviourOct 25, 20182 votes

each section is a hp shield, its not its own unique tower, u cant satchel charge its shield

Full BrainOct 25, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RqN8hFkW,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-10-24T01:32:56.414+0000)

yes, though you need to get 5000damage done against increaseing resstences befor the 14 min mark, not sure how realistic those 800g are.

Still, pretty sure early push/siege champs like cait or about any ranged top(especially quinn) will be very happy with that.

Klepto EZ maxing W first and rushing item 3078 is probably going to become a thing people are raging about because of this.

DragonIgnisOct 24, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RqN8hFkW,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-10-24T00:14:26.046+0000)

instead theyre making turrets worth 3 to 4 times the gold.

if im reading this correctly, an outer turret is going to be worth 800 gold.

800 is the bonus gold from the plating. The turrets themselves are still worth 300. Also, the first turret gold is reduced but it's still there. A turret could be worth 1250 gold during preseason.

MordepoolOct 24, 20186 votes

Much more easily taken By ranged marksmen.

The class that scales better with gold.

This change is more than likely garbage for balance.

Slythrin UmbreonOct 24, 20182 votes

Is your body ready for 5 man bot meta?

BârdOct 24, 20189 votes

The plates get more resistant if you try to send multiple people down there.

Slythrin UmbreonOct 25, 20181 votes

Kill adc, snowball yours, everyone except Jungler and ADC leaves and the two of them can probably take out most of the plates. They're probably being balanced around two champions anyway.

BârdOct 24, 20183 votes

The plates gain resistances if multiple enemy champions are in the area, and bot is a duo lane.

Even if marksmen are better at chipping at towers, they won't be able to get more than a couple plates knocked off in any normal length of time simply because them shits are tanky and nobody has items yet.

My Waifu VanillaOct 24, 20181 votes

In the same vein it is also "more easily" funneled into a split pushing top laner who pretty much never has to split any of the local gold. Someone like Jax or Fiora would love an extra 1000g in their pocket just as much.

Automated RivenOct 25, 20181 votes

They will have to fucking massacre top in order to take all the plates before 14 minutes.

EschetonOct 24, 20181 votes

{quoted}

800 is the bonus gold from the plating. The turrets themselves are still worth 300. Also, the first turret gold is reduced but it's still there. A turret could be worth 1250 gold during preseason.

And it's only local gold. Poor Singed...

SteelflameOct 24, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RqN8hFkW,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-10-24T00:14:26.046+0000)

instead theyre making turrets worth 3 to 4 times the gold.

if im reading this correctly, an outer turret is going to be worth 800 gold.

Only if you can do the full tower in the first bit of the game, with the tower being exceptionally more durable at 5k hp and rapidly growing resistanaces (that scale based on the number of nearby enemy champs to boot, so multiple people won't make it much faster).

TheSingularityOct 24, 201814 votes

All that's left is to revert scuttle and life will be good

We Are Venom336Oct 24, 20183 votes

{quoted}

All that's left is to revert scuttle and life will be good

n dragon give gold n not RNG stats.....

PelopasOct 24, 201812 votes

I miss banner of command

FOR JUSTICEOct 24, 20182 votes

i mean after they remove this you could probably host a legitimate argument to bring it back

Z3SleeperOct 24, 20182 votes

Idk why they removed it instead of reverting it.

Banner was changed to % damage reduction instead of magic nullification, banner is then removed. Like uh... if the change didn't work can't you just like... revert it?

TotalJerkOct 25, 20181 votes

What they needed to do is go back to the version that gave AP.

Tomoe GozenOct 24, 20188 votes

It is a comeback mechanic, first and foremost. What used to happen is that the enemy team, while winning, could just stall your minions out of your base and keep up the farm while making you overextend way into the unguarded lanes to get killed over and over. Because their minions would never reach your bases, all the while you couldn't contest anything and being more and more gold starved. Games where your lanes lost a bit were just going to be harder and harder to come back to, the more and more they dragged on.

This mechanic ensured that if the enemy team is winning, their waves kept pushing towards your base, actually delivering their gold to your doorstep. It's assumed that the team that's winning has an average level higher than your team and that you're already having a hard time contesting objectives with less items so it's not like this mechanic locked you in your base, forever to CS and defend the base.

SaiannaOct 24, 20184 votes

All you say is true, I'm surprised some folks don't get it.

I'm not a fan of the mechanic, though. Cause because of that losing side will always have enemy minions in base.

TotalJerkOct 25, 20181 votes

The problem with that is that it probably does less to help the losing team come back as much as drag out inevitable losses.

Automated RivenOct 25, 20181 votes

While this was the intention it was paired with other things as well. Vision for example used to be far far more prevelant and so there was less room to leave the base safely, because the enemy team had absolute vision of everything you do.

Also how it actually played out was that minions, by nature of being stronger, applied pressure across the entire losing teams base without the winning team having to invest anything. They couldn't be bounced back to relieve pressure, which made Baron plays even more dangerous because you constantly have minions at your bot tower. Even if all 5 members of the winning team stay topside.

The idea was ... Ok.. but it did have unintended side effects which defeated the entire purpose of the change.

BushidoBladeOct 25, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tomoe Gozen,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RqN8hFkW,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2018-10-24T10:04:42.768+0000) This mechanic ensured that if the enemy team is winning, their waves kept pushing towards your base, actually delivering their gold to your doorstep. It's assumed that the team that's winning has an average level higher than your team and that you're already having a hard time contesting objectives with less items so it's not like this mechanic locked you in your base, forever to CS and defend the base.

I understand what the intent was but I feel like the "winning" team who is not winning hard enough cannot risk pushing further into the "losing" team.

For example if an evenly matched bottom lane pushes their tower over at level 6, they are lucky if they have their first item. A lot of adc's need 2-3 items to even become a champion, so getting the tower pushed over is almost an advantage as long as they haven't given up too many cs or deaths in lane. Then just sit back and wait for enemy minions to auto push toward them.

The winning team adc who is also a little ahead of the other (due to tower gold) may not have a significant enough lead to make a large impact in other lanes, so they just end up bouncing between lanes and helping push and get more towers, if that is possible considering the oppressive amount of wave-clear in some champions.

In the event that losing team wave-clear is too strong, the "winning" team adc is just splitting farm with their ally mid or top laner. A lot of lower elo players don't have a designated split pusher, one who can push side waves safely and deeply, so lane swap between bot and top lane when first tower is down rarely happens.

Anyway the reason that I made this discussion for bottom lane is it is often the first turret to go down, and often where advantages and disadvantages are most apparent as when bot lane is lost it's actually effecting 2 players of that team.

HügöOct 24, 20184 votes

Oh man I can't wait for all your posts: "My team is behind and we can't do anything as the minon waves allways clash far away from our turrets"

Pandemic PunchOct 24, 20183 votes

I campaigned for this forever ago. I celebrated when I saw that in the notes

MetallikaiserOct 24, 20183 votes

I am not really that convinced this is a good thing... Seems like farming when behind if you are a late game champ has just become a lot harder...

Automated RivenOct 25, 20181 votes

That's easilly remedied by getting better. And if you get denied then the enemy team played better and you deserve to lose.

MetallikaiserOct 25, 20181 votes

Seems a bit silly, sometimes when playing someone like Viktor/Vayne you are put into a bad spot where you have to play safe and just farm. Are you saying that situation should just be one where the late game champ isn't allowed a chance at a come back?

Automated RivenOct 25, 20181 votes

No, the game is far more then just falling behind in lane. If the opposing team manages to rotate and continuously deny you farm the entire game then you deserve to lose. However there are always avenues you can take to ensure safe farming. Staying with your support, warding and so on. It's just not as simple as the entire enemy team freeze all the lanes and you never get farm. Because there are again ways to counterplay that by bringing more people and breaking the freeze.

Rotating to lanes which are shoving in and soaking farm. Playing around the map and contesting objectives when the opponents are out of position.

At best this change will hurt the losing teams in the late game when they lost all of the outer towers. However with vision being less then it used to be its safer to go clear wards in your jungle and shove lanes and break freezes. (not a ton safer, but safer none the less, because the opponents can't have 20 wards in your jungle anymore as they could prior to the original change)

The flip side is that as the losing team you can set up slow pushes which at least force a response from the winning team to not lose towers. And you can actually manipulate the waves to help from being cornered in your base the rest of the game.

People who complain because they lost 1 game that 1 time maybe because they got denied cs aren't focusing on the right things. It's way to simplistic of a view to say "oh waves don't always shove to me when I am losing so now I won't ever cs again if I am down in levels". That is like 1 layer of hundreds in what it takes to win games. It's just the most basic.

I say this as someone who has both frozen out my opponent in toplane, and been frozen out. It sucks sure. As riven it's pretty easy to be on either side of the coin with how flipfloppy her lanes are. But I have won games where I got frozen out by playing other aspects of the game better. And I have lost games to it as well.

WoodenCreatureOct 24, 20182 votes

Riot always has to fix what's not broken. Every patch we get micro changes in the font like who asked for smthing like that. Riot has to stop act like overly protective mom and actually care for feedback why do they auto assume that their ideas are 100% the best ones.

DeracadaVenomOct 24, 20182 votes

Phew

ModKnightsKemplarOct 24, 20182 votes

Welcome back, wave management. I have sincerely missed thee.

TotalJerkOct 25, 20182 votes

If anyone here actually read how miniscule the bonus to this actually is they'd know it was only just barely large enough to make it functionally impossible to freeze when your team is winning. If the difference in wave size is notable it's going to push in favor of the larger wave regardless of this stat, but if both waves are equal it would require the losing team to neglect that wave for an insane amount of time for it to push back on its own.

Automated RivenOct 25, 20182 votes

It completely obliterated the ability to stack waves and use them for pressure. If you were winning the wave pushed to fast. If you were losing the wave thinned too much. It was a horrid change and lasted way to long.