Boards›Gameplay

Warrior enchant: underpowered?

kcStranger··2 votes·1,925 views

I made a longer post elsewhere that included most of what I'm about to say (http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/HP9lnrTl-breaking-down-cinderhulk-vs-warrior), but that post was really long, and I just want to make a quick comparison in support of the argument that the Warrior enchantment is currently underpowered, and that the 5 AD nerf in patch 5.4 was totally unnecessary:

Warrior enchant: 40 AD, 10% CDR, 10 Armor Pen = 1877 gold value Magus enchant: 80 AP, 20% CDR = 2373 gold value

I haven't heard anyone complaining about Magus being OP, but it's worth almost 500 gold more. Both items exist in a pretty similar space, offering a fairly early power spike for AD and AP junglers, respectively.

I don't think that Warrior was ever overpowered. Instead, the jungle was hostile to non-bruisers, and a few specific champions were probably slightly overpowered (the Rek'Sai/Jarvan/Vi's of the world). But then they made a bunch of changes: nerfs to Rek'Sai/Jarvan/Vi, introduction of Cinderhulk, and the nerf to Warrior.

I think the Warrior nerf was totally unnecessary. Rito, plz give us our 5 AD back.

15 Comments

Lord Dusteon3 votes

You forget though that AD is applying to autoattacks and skills for most junglers though. While AP champs like Magus, they require mana to even use their spells and thus require mana to gank + clear + sustain. This means that while Warrior is less efficient overall, it greatly speeds up clears while providing more sustained damage.

kcStranger1 votes

There's some truth to that. Still, the first version of Warrior was still worth significantly less gold than Magus (by ~320g; the 5 AD has a value of 180g). Also, the bonus AP and CDR can do wonders for the clear speed of an AP jungler like a Nidalee or Fiddlesticks.

I'm not claiming that the gold values of the two should be equal. (And to be honest, I've always felt that the gold value of armor penetration was a bit low, Brutalizer seems better than a 100% gold-efficient item to me.) But, I think that 500g less is a bit extreme, and that they may have overcompensated a bit here for the stale early meta.

The5lacker2 votes

And yet we don't see a massive surge of AP junglers, now, do we?

kcStranger1 votes

I think the impact of fine-tuning the stats on these items is marginal compared to the base power level and kit of specific champions. Imo, the relative lack of heavy-AP junglers has more to do with the merits of those specific champions than the strength of the Magus enchant.

Recall that the main champion to compete with the Rek'Sai/Jarvan/Vi triumvirate was Nidalee, an AP jungler who built Magus. And other champions like Fiddlesticks are strong soloQ picks who see fringe pro play.

Lord Dusteon1 votes

{quoted}

I think the impact of fine-tuning the stats on these items is marginal compared to the base power level and kit of specific champions. Imo, the relative lack of heavy-AP junglers has more to do with the merits of those specific champions than the strength of the Magus enchant.

Recall that the main champion to compete with the Rek'Sai/Jarvan/Vi triumvirate was Nidalee, an AP jungler who built Magus. And other champions like Fiddlesticks are strong soloQ picks who see fringe pro play.

The problem is Nidalee has half her kit manaless (meaning getting lots of AP and cdr is amazing, since she doesn't need mana anywhere near as much as, say, Diana), and Fiddlesticks clears using only W, which is his damage and sustain. Most AP Junglers actually need mana pretty severely, which Magus does not give.

kcStranger1 votes

I might not mind if they re-tuned Magus to provide mana/mana regen but less AP and/or CDR. Not really sure what's optimal.

For what it's worth, I play Fiddlesticks and your jungle sustain does actually wind up being capped by mana; Drain costs a lot at 80/90/100/110/120, and using Dark Wind as well speeds your clears. Fiddle winds up being quite the blue-buff hog since the CDR and mana regen are both really important.

Raja Chachki2 votes

nope it's perfectly fine, and in fact it was nerfed because it was in fact overpowered when released.

Hard4Hamsters1 votes

Flat penetration is undervalued in terms of "gold efficiency" in the early game. It gives a lot of power to both Physical Spells and Auto Attacks when champions don't have a lot of armor. It's gold efficiency falls off later in the game as champions gain more armor. I don't think Warrior is that underpowered (they could give back the 5 AD and I wouldn't mind), but it seems less impactful than Cinderhulk right now.

I think they should give the jungle items more unique passives (like Immolate for Cinderhulk) to make them feel more unique to the playstyle of the junglers who use them, but that is probably a little farther off.

As far as Magus is concerned, the problem with AP junglers right now is that mana is a precious resource, so the most successful AP junglers are those who can use as little mana as possible to clear camps safely (Nidalee Diana Fiddlesticks ). The first clear isn't a big problem due to blue buff, but later in the game, they are expected to give the blue to a laner to give them some help. The stats on Magus are decent but they are comparable to item 3165 and Morellonomicon gives so much more for the same (total) price. This is where I think a unique passive would be appropriate to give more AP jungling options.

The same type of thing could be applied to Warrior where it gains a passive to compliment the style of play Fighter junglers use. (Spirit of the Elder Lizard was good about this)

kcStranger1 votes

Seems like solid analysis. I don't think Warrior is that underpowered either, I just think the nerf was overkill on top of the nerfs to specific champs and the buffs to tank junglers. Maybe we should just replace Devourer and have two AD-centric items, one to support high-damage AD casters like Kha'Zix and one to support bruisers like Vi?

The only thing I'd add is that I play Fiddlesticks and unabashedly hog blues (at least the first 3 or so) when I play him. I wouldn't pick him in draft if I knew I had a blue-reliant mid. The mana cost on Drain is pretty high (80-120), and you also need to use Dark Wind (E) for optimal clears.

Erockandroll1 votes

{quoted}

Seems like solid analysis. I don't think Warrior is that underpowered either, I just think the nerf was overkill on top of the nerfs to specific champs and the buffs to tank junglers. Maybe we should just replace Devourer and have two AD-centric items, one to support high-damage AD casters like Kha'Zix and one to support bruisers like Vi?

The only thing I'd add is that I play Fiddlesticks and unabashedly hog blues (at least the first 3 or so) when I play him. I wouldn't pick him in draft if I knew I had a blue-reliant mid. The mana cost on Drain is pretty high (80-120), and you also need to use Dark Wind (E) for optimal clears.

Devourer is the one weird one in the group. It was meant for champions who build AS. The problem is that most carry based Auto Attacking Junglers (think Yi) probably rely more on Critical strike chance over on hit effects for damage, making the on hit damage kinda moot. And considering that almost all Junglers are melee it's always useful to have defensive items. This ends up with us having Auto Attacking Brusisers who can farm relatively fast, and have enough tankyness to duel while dealing constant DPS. The only ones that it makes sense for is WW, Jungle fizz, and Possibly Udyr.

As for mages, I feel like it's just common sense, for Jungle mages to be Blue buff dependent. (but don't actually forget that mages do get Mana from the Jungler passive.) For this reason I only pick mage Junglers if our mid does not need blue and we lack magic damage.

Hard4Hamsters2 votes

Fidds i think you can get away without blue early if you pack some blue pots as your Drain keeps you healthy in your jungle clears. But yeah, the nerf to Warrior was probably just an "in the moment" decision before Cinderhulk was available. I think that it might be reverted at some point (or they might give it a new passive).

By the way, Kha needs some love. He has some horrible balance history, so I think Riot is afraid of giving him any buffs again, but he is in a tough spot right now. When building full damage, he doesn't seem to do as much damage as other champions (possibly because he dies before getting all of his damage out) and when he goes tankier, he's still a squishy bug. His jungle clear is pretty harsh too.

FantasySniper1 votes

AP champs need that boost in the jungle. AD champs don't since they basically operate with 100% efficiency in that environment.

LoRdJeSuS69694201 votes

I feel like it is fairly balanced early on in the game, but that as a final item the warrior enchantment is mediocre compared to the other ones, or compared to other lategame AD items you could build in its place. Comparing magus to morellonomicon (no grevious wounds, less mana regen while not fighting monsters...otherwise about the same) seems a lot more even than comparing warrior to a black cleaver (no % pen, no HP, less AD). I don't personally feel like the 5 ad nerf was necessary, but I guess riot knows a lot more about the workings behind the game than I do, so maybe there was a good reason.

kcStranger1 votes

I hate to argue against you since it seems like you're one of the only people agreeing with me, but Morellonomicon costs 2300g while The Black Cleaver costs 3000g, so it makes sense that Magus should compare better to Morello than Warrior compares to The Black Cleaver.

SmokingPuffin1 votes

I don't see much evidence for Warrior being too weak. Gets bought all the time in competitive play.

I tend to think Magus is not very good, despite its gold efficiency. AP junglers need mana sustain in the same way that tank junglers needed clearing speed.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by kcStranger

OK Nidalee Haters, Let Me Try One Last Time
Gameplay194 comments
91
votes
4 out of 5 Bjergsens think Syndra could use a mana buff
Gameplay41 comments
40
votes
*This* is why you have a support
Gameplay76 comments
35
votes
Meditation/Expanded Mind Changes and Mid-Lane Mages
Gameplay28 comments
24
votes
Syndra public opinion poll
Gameplay63 comments
19
votes
Dear Rito, pls give us more mana (utility masteries discussion)
Gameplay5 comments
13
votes