OK Nidalee Haters, Let Me Try One Last Time

kcStranger··91 votes·8,096 views

For reference, here is the nerf currently being tested on the PBE:

Nidalee Base HP reduced to 511 from 541 HP Growth reduced to 75 from 90 Primal Surge (Human E) cooldown increased to 16 seconds from 12 seconds.

I made some posts previously suggesting this nerf might be misguided, and got a pretty negative reaction. I think this was because a lot of people don't like Nidalee and will welcome almost anything to push her out of the limelight. I then asked why people hate Nidalee so much, and based on the responses I do think her play pattern is a bit unhealthy.

The problem with Nidalee is this: Her spears (especially max-range spears) are really hard to land because they're quite slow-moving. However, they hit super-hard at max-range; the damage scales from 50-150 + 40% AP to 150-450 + 120% AP. The latter values are better damage than a lot of ultimates, and they're on a 6-second cooldown. Because Nidalee is somewhat squishy but has a lot of damage front-loaded onto Javelin Toss, plus quick assassination/escape potential with Cougar form, a play pattern is set up where Nidalee is constantly throwing spears, dashing in only for quick assassinations, and continually kiting/poking/being generally irritating. From the opponent's perspective, the spears usually aren't that hard to dodge (so long as you know not to dodge backwards), but when they do hit, they frequently mean that you die, or that you have to instantly base and give up subsequent teamfights. If Nidalee's teammates are good at setting up CC to help her hit spears, this becomes especially difficult and frustrating. (Plus, it's just annoying to have to constantly play around the spears or be punished so heavily.)

I think that Nidalee should be adjusted so that her playstyle offers less potential for giant damage off Javelin Toss poke, and greater rewards for using her Cougar form abilities as engage instead of disengage. Personally, I would prefer to see the range-based damage on Javelin Toss nerfed removed (or at least nerfed to 2x); the other option is to simply nerf the damage/ratios on the ability. Now, Nidalee is not that overpowered statistically (winrate is 52% in Diamond but actually sub-50% in lower Leagues, although her popularity surge is probably decreasing her winrate), so she may need buffs to compensate for the decreased Javelin Toss damage. I think a good place to start would be her durability (base and growth HP/armor/MR values; so, basically the opposite of the PBE nerf). This would incentivize Nidalee to engage using Cougar form by making her more able to survive the process. Increasing her durability would also help her jungle sustain, and I personally like the variety that she brings as one of a handful of viable mage junglers.

The problem with the PBE nerfs is that although they may "solve the problem" by making Nidalee worse (and therefore less oppressive), they actually promote the very playstyle that makes Nidalee frustrating to play against. With less health (30-285 depending on level), Nidalee players must become even more wary of engaging with Cougar form, and even more focused on the poke/execute/escape-oriented play that I think frustrates people. So although this change may address people's complaints with Nidalee, I think it actually puts her in a worse place if Riot ever wants her to actually be balanced.

Please, Riot. Let's do this the right way.

Update: PBE Nidalee has been changed; the E cooldown nerf was removed, and the HP growth was increased to 80. Needless to say, I think this is an improvement on the previous version, though it doesn't really address Nidalee's fundamental problem (which is more one of her being unfun for a lot of people, rather than overpowered).

Addendum: Turns out Nidalee's base health/armor values are actually on the high side for a non-tank (which I didn't realize when I made the original post), so maybe those shouldn't be the target of any compensation buffs. On other note is that a poster below made a decent argument that Nidalee's heal actually is a source of unhealthy gameplay (search "Rubber Jesus"). I'd seen a lot of complaining about the heal before but didn't appreciate why it was unfun. (I personally am not sensitive to almost any of this; I've just been trying to understand the perspective of the people who hate Nidalee.) At any rate, I don't think Nidalee's balance deserve a serious nerf, so making such large changes as these would amount to another rework (collective gasp).

194 Comments

Daedalus87134 votes

I'll agree with you. A stats nerf is not what needs to happen to Nid.

She probably needs a rework of her human abilities (get rid of the heal) and the spear should be more consistent, but hit for less. Any power needed should be transferred to her Cougar form, mainly Swipe.

grLKQ9ma0o4 votes

If you get rid of her heal, you get rid of any sustain she has PERIOD. She would no longer be able to stay in a lane, could not survive the jungle, and would lose the ability to do just about anything.

Daedalus87113 votes

Lot's of champs have no inbuilt sustain and can do decently in lane.

And if you completely get rid of the heal, guess what? Nid get's a new spell who's usefulness has yet to be determined.

ZylotheWolfbane19 votes

Lowering her front loaded javeling damage would help. It could even shift power into other abilities, like cougar skills. However her extreme poke damage is one of her many overbearing issues.

Her sustain, and supportive ability is a problem, her heal should either be removed, or the AS steroid should be removed, one or the other. It shouldn't be both. She shouldn't have half an old Soraka heal, and half a Nunu Blood boil in one easily spammed ability.

Her mobility is also an issue. I'd like to see the cooldown of her cougar leap increased significantly, but have it be halved if she hits a champion with it, to emphasize it as an aggressive gap closer, then have it reset on kill or assist maybe, so she can focus on doing what Riot seems to WANT her to be. Have her stay at range, fish for spears, then when she lands one, go aggressive and try to assassinate. Encourage her to put herself at risk, and reward THAT, instead of rewarding her for spending the entire game 3/4ths of a screen away from the enemy doing nothing but mashing her spear, running away, and healing herself and allies, while also giving the ADC a speed buff.

Basically, her kit is overloaded as hell, and needs some heavy changes to put her towards what her concept/lore are supposed to make her, a predator who prowls around, searching for an opportunity, a sign of weakness, before leaping on her target, and taking down her prey. Instead of just having her be a nuke-chucking coward who only turns into a giant jungle cat predator to run away.

mirAcIe10 votes

Last time I was mad about Nid spears was in 2010 when I was a noob and didn't know how to play.

KaisadiIIa14 votes

When her spears used to deal 525 +1.55 AP iirc... now they only deal 450 +1.2 AP, people don't know what hurting really is.

junglerboy168 votes

I Started back in 2013 and even I know what the ICBM javelins used to feel like. At least back then if you cornered her she couldn't just maul your face, and you could actually try to bully her before she hit 6.

Ariel the Cruel3 votes

Back then there were referred to as depleted uranium spears. XD Her pounce also had lower CD. Through People (even in the LCS) were hilariously bad at aiming it (since she pounced toward her facing, not the mouse).

Of course. I also remember AD Bruiser Nid before that. Which was blatantly OP.

Narasimha4 votes

I started in 2012 (for what random purpose its worth).. And the major difference was, while it was easier to beat her in close range then, she was fully capable to throwing spears from her backline and even making tanks cringe. Its a noticeable difference.

youngjake936 votes

{quoted}

When her spears used to deal 525 +1.55 AP iirc... now they only deal 450 +1.2 AP, people don't know what hurting really is.

Yea they could one shot you easily and had 6x the hitbox. It's so weird reading a thread that says "take power from javelin and put it into cougar." They already did that majorly..

MarshallBananna7 votes
  1. Health 541 – 2071 ; Armor 22.9 – 82.4
  2. Health 576 – 2038 ; Armor 26.5 – 81.7

The first is Nidalee , a supposedly squishy mage with free mobility, heal , and one of the most powerful non-ult nukes in the game The second is Nautilus , a TANK.

lvl 18 nidalee has more base HP and AR than a tank.

Yeah, no. this change is 100% warranted.

Skia Asteri9 votes

{quoted}

  1. Health 541 – 2071 ; Armor 22.9 – 82.4
  2. Health 576 – 2038 ; Armor 26.5 – 81.7

The first is Nidalee , a supposedly squishy mage with free mobility, heal , and one of the most powerful non-ult nukes in the game The second is Nautilus , a TANK.

lvl 18 nidalee has more base HP and AR than a tank.

Yeah, no. this change is 100% warranted.

Akali 587.8 -> 2032.8 Evelynn 531.2 -> 2061.2 Fizz 558.48 -> 2020.5 Kassadin 564.04 -> 1890 Katarina 510 -> 1921 Khazix 572.8 -> 2017.8 Leblanc 516 -> 1791 MasterYi 598.56 -> 2162.6 Nocturne 582.8 -> 2027.8 Rengar 586.2 -> 2116.2 Shaco 582.12 -> 2010.1 Talon 582.8 -> 2027.8 Zed 579.4 -> 1939.4

Like Nidalee , all of these have assassin as their primary role.

kcStranger1 votes

See the addendum to the main post. A nerf of ~5 to the HP growth stat would bring Nidalee roughly into alignment with these other champions. As it is, though, she's basically Evelynn with 10 more base health, or Rengar with 45 less health. So, a change may or may not be warranted, but in any case the PBE nerf seems extreme to me. Hopefully, they're just testing it and don't actually plan to go live with such a large nerf.

Rubber Jesus2 votes

Eve and Rengar don't have a heal that scales to 205 + .5 AP with a 60 % attack speed buff. <--- I think this is where her source of problems comes from, not her damage. No other assassin has a heal that large, they can cast on any member of the team, with an attack speed buff that large.

Solution? I can think of two options:

(1) Best would be to make it a shield, since shields work well on AP burst mages and assassins and are not OP. Get rid of the attack speed boost (it doesn't really fit her playstyle, she doesn't stack AS, she's more burst assassin) and add some scaling armor and MR, somewhere along the lines of 5/10/15/20/25 per rank. This would give her a shield and defense for early game jungle, plus it fits her assassin role much better. Nidalee targets prey, and they are marked as hunted. She can cast her shield on herself, for damage mitigation and defense, then jump in as cougar to finish them off. This is a lot less toxic than a heal since it is temporary HP, not permanent HP after cast, and I think it would fit into her playstyle better and help her survive her ganks and kills. This doesn't allow her to spam heals on other players, like supports should do, because champions with heals that can be cast on the team typically aren't high burst assassins. Kayle is a mage that has a heal as well, but she doesn't have any nuking abilities either, and it doesn't give high offensive stats for long durations. I can't think of any others right now off the top of my head, besides supports. Sona is one, but she only has two damage abilities, and isn't an assassin. I think the shield could even be cast on teammates, without being OP, since it takes away the high damage burst from the AS and isn't permanent health.

(2) Make her heal a self cast only. Lots of assassins and mages have a means to heal themselves, but this is self limiting. They cannot heal their teammates. So keep it in it's true form, and let it be limited to self cast only. Yi has a self heal, but his stat is based on AP, and he doesn't build AP. Therefore, his heal is much weaker than Nidalee, even if hers were a self cast only.

TLDR: Assassins should not get a heal that is 205 + .5 AP (primary stat) at max rank with a 60% attack speed boost that can be cast on teammates as well as themselves. There are much better options to explore, like shields with scaling armor/MR bonuses, that fit better in her playstyle. It would cut out her team support-ish role contributions, but would make her a better, healthier assassin overall.

kcStranger1 votes

I would tend to disagree mostly because in my opinion, Nidalee is not overpowered (at least, not by much), just unfun to play against for a lot of people. (I actually don't happen to be one of those people, but after previous discussions I understand where they're coming from and think a change would be healthy.) Her Diamond win rate is only 52%, and it's lower in other leagues. She's not a perma-ban in pro play, just a strong option. If she had a 55% win rate, I could see how nerfing the heal would be a decent choice, but I really don't think that's necessary for her balance.

So for me, it all comes down to what feels oppressive to play against. I understand how an ability that can deal 450 + 120% AP damage on a 6-second cooldown feels oppressive. I don't really understand how the heal feels oppressive, so I'm less keen on nerfing it.

If you can explain to me how the heel feels super-oppressive and annoying, I might come around to your position. Especially if you can show me how it feels more oppressive than the long-range spears. But I doubt there's anything that you can show me to convince me that she's more than a little OP; the numbers just don't back it up.

Rubber Jesus2 votes

I'll give an example. After a successful gank bot lane in mid game, the ADC is almost dead. Normally, for an assassin gank, the ADC would have to go back to base to heal. With Nidalee, she can easily get a few heals off, giving the ADC 40% or more health, and with a 60% AS bonus, the tower is destroyed. Replace bot lane, with top lane or mid even, and any AD champ can destroy a turret a lot faster with that buff, and creates lane sustain for those she ganks for. The reason they nerfed Alistar jungle is because support jungle was just too strong of a lane presence during ganks, not because he had some large nuke. He had utility and heals. Plus, I just don't think it fits with her kit atm.

Riot has already taken a stance on healers being unhealthy in the game, especially around the Soraka rework time, and I would argue that what they say holds merit. "We’ve talked a bunch previously about healing being an (ironically) unhealthy mechanic in League. If hurting your enemies is fun – and it totally is – then presumably seeing them get unhurt is... unfun? Our more recent champion kits revolve around temporarily blocking damage and shields rather than straight up undoing pain. "

And I think that seeing someone throw a spear that does that tons of damage at you and your teammates to nuke them down, then jump on them with another round of high damage abilities, jump away after killing them, then run to her teammates to undo all the damage you just did to their ADC, who then gets a 60% attack speed buff to nuke you down as well. That is one thing that can make her oppressive, her heal, and that is the reason why assassins do not get healing spells. Champions whose kits are not made to do burst damage get healing spells.

kcStranger2 votes

OK, thanks for the explanation. I never thought it through that far. What you're saying actually makes some sense.

Sounds like Nidalee just needs another mini-rework. Perhaps the heal could be reworked into a temporary damage reduction buff? (Something like "decrease incoming damage by X% for Y seconds"; could use different values of X for champions/monsters.) That ability would eliminate a lot of the annoyance of the heal, but still give Nidalee enough sustain to jungle. It could also give her more incentive to jump in with cougar, since she could activate the buff, then switch forms and jump in, taking less damage for the duration of the engage.

Why am I working so hard at this. How many people are actually going to see it all the way down here? XD At any rate, thank you for your careful response. To be honest, I didn't understand why people griped about the heal so much before; now, I get it.

Stephenizgod1 votes

Thats because Naut is expected to be building Tank, Nidalee is not. I think its stupid because it means AP Naut is less tanky then normal Nidalee and less damaging....

Beerstein8 votes

{quoted}

Thats because Naut is expected to be building Tank, Nidalee is not. I think its stupid because it means AP Naut is less tanky then normal Nidalee and less damaging....

Even trying to compare such vastly different champions is stupid.

FortuneDoesWeed6 votes

It seems to me that the balance team never know where the problem is. They always end up nerfing stats which isn't the problem at all.

Riven -> nerf life regen Yasuo -> HP Nidalee -> HP

I giggled.

What always infuriated me about Nida isn't her damage, it's the ability to put herself in a really bad situation, and still get out unharmed. Her kit is too safe, and changing base numbers will not help it at all.

Svddenly4 votes

The balance team is trying to compensate for a champion's strength by giving them "weaknesses" instead of nerfing their strengths. So far it hasn't really helped. Especially all the people who like Riven (I like her too) say that "a shield based in AD is fine because her health regen is kinda sorta low". A shield on a full AD champ (like Riven) shouldn't be based on AD. They should increase the base shield on it and make it an AP ratio.

Thryale2 votes

or at the very least cut the ad ratio in half and up the base by 20/30/40/50/60

BastionKross5 votes

They could give her cougar form mana costs. That way if she sits back and throws spears all day she won't be able to leap in and assassinate, and she could no longer spam her pounce to get away. This would also force her to get mana sustain items to make up for those weaknesses, and thus have less damage items to make spears and cougar form delete people less.

Guy Fox Teemo3 votes

They can't put msna costs on her Cougars abilities because none of them are very "powerful" unless the target is hunted, her q doesn't do anything if the targets not low and hunted. Her w is just a slight jump if targets not hunted and her e is just kinda a bit of air damage so she has some form of wave clear, even the ability in general is just weak. And if they did give them mana cost nidalees abilities in human form would have to be buffed by lowering mama costs since they become extremely high later on.

Beerstein5 votes

As someone who's played nidalee for years because I wanted a champion that required more mechanics this nerf upsets me a lot. Honestly she wasn't as strong as people make her out to be she was just annoying for them. Personally I've used her spear as more of a utility than damage almost since I started playing her. If people want spear damage nerfed just ***ing nerf it and stop nerfing everything else about her. As someone that's stuck with her through all the nerfs this one is the one that destroys her for me.

You nerfed everything else about her now you're trying to turn her into a straight up spearbot (which ironically is something she's not really capable of after all the previous nerfs regardless of how much people dislike her). With this decreased survivability you dump her into old evelynn levels of unplayable. You'll only see her played as a troll pick when someone is smurfing and guess what? People will continue to complain about her because of it.

TL;DR She's not even close to a viable champion after those nerfs and I wish I could find SOME way to keep playing her but even before they're released I know it's too much. Played nidalee since pre season 1 and I can't after this patch goes through. I understand she's the most complained about champion but nerfing everything but what people are complaining about just blows for nidalee players. I don't want to play Jayce, I like my cat. I'm also not looking to do some insane damage hits or I would have already retired her for viktor.

TL;DR;DR I really hate you for this Riot, after all the nid skins we bought. You could have changed her spear to 0 damage and I would have still played her but this is BS.

Skia Asteri4 votes

In her rework her spear damage was reduced.

Min: 55 / 95 / 140 / 185 / 230 (+65% AP) -> 50 / 75 / 100 / 125 / 150 (+40% AP) Max: 137 / 237 / 350 / 462 / 575 (+162.5% AP) -> 150 / 225 / 300 / 375 / 450 (+120% AP)

For that matter every part of her kit had its damage nerfed during the rework except for situational damage from her traps (added % current HP damage, last nerf made them positively worse than pre-rework though) and Take Down when Hunted is on the target. Her heal amount was also nerfed.

See patch history at: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Nidalee/Background

Abyssphere4 votes

What does everyone who wants her heal gone suggest to replace it? She can't function in lane without it, because she is based on being unable to touch the enemy champion for the vast majority of the laning phase and thus has basically no way to respond to harass. She needs some form of sustain, or her laning phase is absolutely dumpstered and she'll need heavy compensation elsewhere.

kcStranger2 votes

Honestly, I tend to agree. The heal is a big part of what enables her in the jungle, and I like that she has that possibility.

TheUltimateSpear4 votes

The thing I hate with most assassins, Nidalee included, is that even if they fail, they get to try again, and again, and again and simply don't have enough vulnerable windows to fight against them. Nidalee's burst mobility(blink/teleports) isn't as bad as some of the others, but she still creates this helpless environment where, since she's at max range chucking spears, you can't close the gap fast enough if she runs in cougar form. Which she will. It's about surviving; retaliation is out of the question unless the frontline can rush her. :/

But I'm glad you're trying to be reasonable and thoughtful about her, it's clear you like her instead of just liking winning.

Beerstein4 votes

{quoted}

The thing I hate with most assassins, Nidalee included, is that even if they fail, they get to try again, and again, and again and simply don't have enough vulnerable windows to fight against them. Nidalee's burst mobility(blink/teleports) isn't as bad as some of the others, but she still creates this helpless environment where, since she's at max range chucking spears, you can't close the gap fast enough if she runs in cougar form. Which she will. It's about surviving; retaliation is out of the question. :/

I think the problem is even though she's easy to dodge after 40 seconds of chucking spears and she finally hits once you do get hit what can you do about it? Go back in time and buy a banshees veil? Nope, it's too late you're dead. There's absolutely nothing you can do once she finally lands that spear.

Hinagiku335 votes

How is that any different than...

...Blitz finally landing a grab?

...Thresh finally landing a hook?

...Morgana landing her Dark Binding?

...Kat finally getting a full-channel ult after you blew all your CC?

...getting Exhausted right after you dive in?

...Jax dodging all your auto-attacks as an AD Carry after jumping on you?

There's a lot of things that you can't do anything about after they happen. It's just that people only complain about 2 or 3 of them at a time until the Cycle of Nerfs (tm) moves on.

GundayMonday4 votes

If they made her spears visible 100% of the time. There would be way less whining about this champion.

qetzel3 votes

If you nerf her spears too much then she will no longer be a mage jungle. She will be played as an AD champion. Sorry... I had to say that. I love being a pedant.

On to my real response. I like your post. It clearly shows us what you believe the problem to be and what you think needs to be done to fix it. +1.

However, you did not give the suggested solution by Riot enough time.

Nisalee has two problems. The one you mentioned and her clear time. Nidalee's clear is incredible at the moment. Given the root on monsters she can rush through the jungle. However, given that different camps deal different amounts of damage, lowering the root duration may not be a good suggestion (it may mean that she just has to avoid the gromp, for example).

Lowering her health and health per level and heal cooldown does three things. Firstly, it weakens her lane presence (she is still used in alne to great effect, you know). Secondly, it lowers her cler (She has to back more frequently. If Riot has tuned it right she will have to back at a similar time to other junglers, and so won't have too much of an advantage). Thirdly, it offers more meaningful counterplay.

How you beat a NIdalee is to jump on her when she is trying to rain spears down on you. Lowering her health and health per level means that, if you can catch her, she won't be able to survive your burst and jump away. Lowering the heal cooldown means that any poke you can land to soften her up isn't immediately negated. If she is ahead and so does manage to just get away, she will have to wait longer before joining the fight again. Perhaps she will actually have to go back to the fountain as most other champions do.

EDIT: Is it wrong that I downvote almost every other comment so that mine gts more visibility? /j

MrBuffington2 votes

What I find odd, though, is that they're also targeting her hp/lvl, meaning she loses 300 HP on her late game, which wasn't really her most problematic stage. Her early/mid pressure in jungle was probably her most outstanding strength. I guess it goes along more with Riot's method of exacerbating a champion's weaknesses instead of directly nerfing their strengths?

qetzel1 votes

Her late game is frustrating though. She can throw a lot of spears, and if just one or two hit... I believe that the loss of HP, as I have said, is to promote the counterplay of engaging. A really well played Nidalee won't give the enemy that option, of course, but everyone makes mistakes every game.

MrBuffington2 votes

I think it just encourages her to play safer, honestly. That's what I'd do; build more mana sustain and pick my engages far more carefully. Maybe it's healthier overall, but based on the complaints, probably more frustrating for other players.

What I find odd is that these sorts of changes (HP nerfs) are typically Riot's response to a laner (ie. Riven, Yasuo, Katarina), where Nidalee isn't really a problem in lane; it's just her early jungling pressure that seems like the most outstanding issue (of course, as is typical with circlejerks, as soon as one thing about a champion is overtuned, people think everything about that champion is broken OP, so you'll see complaints about the most random stuff). I think these nerfs hurt AD Bruiser Nidalee far more than jungle Nidalee. If anything I'd expect nerfs that hurt her ability to remain healthy in early clears, so she has backs that are more similar to other junglers in the game.

Enkidusmurf3 votes

Man, you don't need a red response. You need a job offer. Excellent post. +1

thinking man2 votes

They are nerfing harder to notice stuff so that they aren't obligated to compensate. Her power budget is already massive and any nerf worthy of compensation would just make something else broken.

they do not gut identity no matter how cancer it is, they instead prune everything outside of it.

kcStranger2 votes

So I realized that there actually is a fairly close counterpart to Nidalee's Javelin Toss in Jayce's Shock Blast. There are many differences, most notably that the higher-damage version of Shock Blast gets a range/speed increase, but the champions are pretty similar mechanically, and Javelin Toss and Shock Blast are their poke abilities.

The % damage increase on Shock Blast is 40% (as opposed to the maximum possible increase of 200% on Nidalee's spear). I think that making the ability more reliable to hit but less damaging leads to a healthier play pattern than Nidalee's spears. If you get hit by a max-range Nidalee spear, not only does it hurt like hell, it also makes you feel dumb for letting such a slow projectile at long range (unless you were CC'd, in which case you feel helpless instead). So the ability may be "balanced" in its current incarnation, but it's balanced in a way that makes it very frustrating to play against. Things like Jayce blasts (and Corki rockets, for that matter) aren't as frustrating because when they hit, it feels more like your opponent aimed well and less like you dodged poorly, and there's more chance for you to still do something meaningful without backing first.

MrBuffington4 votes

A few differences that you're alluding to (shockblast combo vs javelin toss):

  1. Shockblast has the damage amp at any point once it travels through the acceleration gate; Nidalee only gets her damage amp at longer ranges
  2. Shockblast has a pretty massive AoE; Jayce might not be able to chunk a single player as hard, but he can chunk several players for a large amount. Nidalee's poke is single-target
  3. Shockblast is (a lot) faster and therefore more difficult to react to; Javelin Toss is pretty slow and has a narrow hitbox
  4. Shockblast explodes at max range; if you miss a Spear, you miss, but if you miss a Shockblast, you might still hit your opponents
  5. In return, Nidalee's spear has more damage and lower cooldown.

Maybe just because I play Nidalee (and therefore know how to play against her), but I find Jayce a lot more frustrating to play against. imo having less of a chance to dodge or react to a skillshot isn't less frustrating, as you suggested; it just feels oppressive. If you feel dumb for getting hit with a skillshot, that's actually a good thing in my mind as far as counterplay; you feel dumb because there's something you could have done differently to avoid it. If you feel like there was nothing you could have done, that just feels hopeless, not less frustrating. There have been many times when I played against a Jayce where I predicted when he would fire his skillshot and dodged accordingly, yet was still hit by the AoE. That's just obnoxious (not saying he needs a nerf, just saying it's annoying playing vs. him)

I definitely understand why people are frustrated by Nidalee, her spears chunk for a lot of damage and that doesn't feel good, but I don't think it's a good policy to nerf champions just because they're frustrating to play against (so long as they're not frustrating just because there's no counterplay). There are plenty of champions that have infamously frustrating kits to play against; Teemo, Morgana, Tryndamere, and Fizz, for example, but it doesn't mean they're inherently unhealthy because of it.

In fact, Nidalee's kit was perfectly fine before she got that random jungle buff, most people on Boards were actually holding it up as a shining example of Riot's reworks done correctly. For that reason, I'm much more in favor of targeted nerfs at Nidalee's ability to jungle (like damage caps vs. monsters like they have for a lot of junglers) than a lot of the suggestions you see floating around Boards.

metaworldpeace102 votes

I think something we can all agree on is that her gameplay pattern is toxic and these nerfs really don't do much to help alleviate the gameplay pattern problems that she brings to the table.

Beerstein6 votes

{quoted}

I think something we can all agree on is that her gameplay pattern is toxic and these nerfs really don't do much to help alleviate the gameplay pattern problems that she brings to the table.

They're not meant to, they're meant to drop her win rate to sub 45% to prevent people from playing her at all which is the problem.

Viktorious Alekt2 votes

There is a constant misconception about Nidalee's spears, and it still holds true. **Nidalee spears are not a slow projectile.**In fact, if I remember well, it is 1300 speed, which is 100 units faster than Lux's Q.

Big Bang Bob2 votes

Still not that hard to dodge when it comes from miles away though.

kcStranger2 votes

Yeah. Makes you feel like an idiot when you do get hit though (assuming you weren't CC'd).

I think that's kind of the problem. If there's no teamwork/CC, hitting the spear often feels more like the opponent failing than the Nidalee player actually doing something good. I'd prefer to see a less damaging projectile, but one that can actually be landed against opponents who aren't sleeping.

Big Bang Bob4 votes

It's especially bad when your standing in the middle of your team or minions, yet somehow a random spear goes through all of this to hit you. xD

I'm glad I mostly play tanks.

SwiftKitten882 votes

one of the mains issues i have with the op was when he said "we need to move nidalee engage to cougar form"

i think that would really just make the issue worse... right now nidalee needs to land a hard to hit skillshot to engage. i fail to see how making it so she can engage with cougar form without her needing to land a hard to hit skillshot would do anything but make this issue worse.

viken2 votes

Isn't that basically what the original nidalee rework tried to accomplish anyways? They cut some damage out of the spear, and they gave it the hunted thing to make it more rewarding to transform to cougar and bite their head off.

Stacona1 votes

Nidalee's problem is her absurd damage and free mobility --- post rework i actually think her heal is balanced and nidalee is already a squishy champion so her problem is not there despite being nerfs on PBE, the problem is her absurd damage output and free mobility is what riot needs to tackle

I actually placed a post that tackles Nidalee's fundamental problems where i reduced her spear damage especially the cap damage but lowered the cooldown per rank so that one spear still hurts at a distance but does not destroy health bears so you need multiple spears to bring a champion to base or out of the fight; same goes with reducing takedown's cap damage for nidalee cannot Q R Q and kill you so easily you actually need to do more to finish off your prey in cougar form--- also granted a low mana cost to pounce so that she does not simply get free mobility

SwiftKitten882 votes

{quoted}

Nidalee's problem is her absurd damage and free mobility --- post rework i actually think her heal is balanced and nidalee is already a squishy champion so her problem is not there despite being nerfs on PBE, the problem is her absurd damage output and free mobility is what riot needs to tackle

I actually placed a post that tackles Nidalee's fundamental problems where i reduced her spear damage especially the cap damage but lowered the cooldown per rank so that one spear still hurts at a distance but does not destroy health bears so you need multiple spears to bring a champion to base or out of the fight; same goes with reducing takedown's cap damage for nidalee cannot Q R Q and kill you so easily you actually need to do more to finish off your prey in cougar form--- also granted a low mana cost to pounce so that she does not simply get free mobility

the problem with that is nidalee skills are a very hard to hit skillshot. its not an aoe move like ahri's orb that she can shoot through minions. it stops at the first target hit. and therefore is a lot harder to land. just like getting hit my blitz's pull , thresh hook, ahri's charm or any line based skillshot that stops at the first target it. there is a reason while all of those skills pretty much means your dead. same goes with nidalee spear.

i literally had an oppoent who was yelling at his adc for getting grabbed multiple times by our blitzcrank when he was vsing me as a nid mid and would stand in frount of creep and take spears. then he says spears are easy to land.... well yeah if you stand out in the open they are...

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