Meditation/Expanded Mind Changes and Mid-Lane Mages

kcStranger··24 votes·3,078 views

Here are the Utility mastery changes currently on the PBE:

**Expanded Mind Swapped places in Utility Tree with Meditation Changed from "+2/3.5/5% increased maximum Mana to "+25/50/75 Mana" **Meditation Swapped places in Utility Tree with Expanded Mind Changed from "+1 Mana Regen per 5 seconds (per rank)" to "Restore 0.5/1.0/1.5% of missing Mana every 5 seconds"

In particular, I would like to look at the effect of this change on champions who go with 21/0/9 masteries (or, more generally, champions who put enough points in Utility to use the new Expanded Mind but not the new Meditation). Such champions will be losing 1 mana regen/5 (per rank in the mastery) but gaining 25 total mana (per rank). So, the amount of additional mana provided by these masteries will be the same after 125 s (2:05 minutes) on the field. This feels to me like a nerf to the early laning of champions like Syndra, Ziggs, Xerath, Lux, Kassadin, etc. who need to stay out to farm for several (i.e., more than two) minutes at a time in the early part of the game. For my part, I play Syndra and know that I have to be very careful with my spell casts until I'm able to afford Athene's or something similar. Some won't have a problem with this (and I do think there are some positive things about these changes as well), but for my part I feel that these mages are already a little too strapped for mana in the early game, and I'm afraid these changes would exacerbate that.

Would be interested to hear any thoughts on this. Granted, it's a rather small difference I'm discussing, but sometimes the difference between winning or losing an encounter is having the mana to get that one last spellcast off.

28 Comments

Zarxis18 votes

I'm not sure why Riot thinks it's necessary to nerf the mana regen of the champions that already had their mana regen nerfed through item 3174 and the % base mana regen changes that were introduced at the beginning of Season 5. These same champions are the ones you don't see as often nowadays because they have problems with tanks.

I understand that Riot wants to make Utility a good 21-point mastery tree for champions other than Ryze and some true/traditional supports, but I don't think this is the right way to do it. Forcing mana-strapped champions like Lux and Ziggs to take 21 points in utility just to keep their current sub-par levels of mana sustain is really going to hurt their viability; they need 21 points in Offense to keep up in terms of damage while they buy their mana items.

Ghiefelstein4 votes

Riot is standardizing mana regen for mages across the board. In preseason they gave most mages the same base regen and items got % base mana regen scaling. These masteries were outdated, but now they fit within the new system.

It is probably a small nerf for mages in the short term. But in the long term they can balance mana more effectively and more precisely.

Masteries are not the right place to tweak mana issues for mages, because they affect other roles as well. I rather see buffs to mage items to help this group.

kcStranger4 votes

I don't think fiddling with items really solves the problem unless you upped mana regen on Doran's ring; items like Athene's, Tear, or RoA will generally solve your mana problems, but can be awkward early buys on some champions (like Syndra, for instance). If the PBE changes came hand-in-hand with some modest buffs to base mana regen or ability's mana costs for the champions who most needed it, I'd be OK with that.

NorthernDruid2 votes

Increasing the effect of Doran's Ring passive, and the Feast mastery (which has the same effect, flat mana back on last hit) would go a long way.

Neo Cyrus4 votes

"Short term", just how they buffed back mana after they gutted it with the base stat nerfs of season 5 right? Oh wait...

Ghiefelstein3 votes

Both the base stat changes and these mastery changes are done for the long term (years) by the Systems team. They are not going to care if mages are a bit weaker for a few months, as long as they have balance levers for them.

Neo Cyrus7 votes

A few months, it's been more than a few. And they should care, leaving a game in a broken state for months at a time is not alright by any means.

You sound like one of Riot's PR parrots giving their usual excuses of why things are still wrong years later. Ping under 100 for the east coast? Please give us another 6 years.

Rinky Dinky1 votes

Check athenes right now

Duke Anax3 votes

Nice stealth buff to Ryze early game. About 2 damage per spell and up to 10 on E.

That's almost as much as you get from the offense tree.

and since I#m the kind of ryze that goes utility, the extra mana regenration is a plus too.

Nilok1 votes

Isn't this also a late game nerf for Ryze?

Tis a nice day1 votes

Technically yes, although a buff to any champion's early game will also influence their late game.

Tis a nice day2 votes

Also Bard with his % mana regen from chimes.

Baron of Bread5 votes

Except Ryze is so mana thirsty you can run a RoA, Tear, and Athene's and still have trouble with your mana.

SpecterVonBaren8 votes

Anivia :Oh my, how awful.

Swain : Please, tell me more about your mana problems.

Baron of Bread1 votes

Nice name.

I actually play all three of these folks and can say I reliably have the most trouble with Ryze. I just don't use as much mana clearing/trading with Anivia or Swain as I do with Ryze (if I do on Swain the passive covers for it).

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

My point wasn't that Ryze can't possibly have it worse than them, I was more getting at how he's in good company and that it's not so bad to have a couple champs have high mana costs. And honestly, I think it made less sense for Ryze to have such cheap costs on his spells when he partially scales with mana.

Baron of Bread1 votes

The reason his costs are so low is that he really spams them. You can literally go thorough your full combo (which could be something like Q-W-Q-E-Q in about a second) ~2 times in the duration of your passive at early levels and you are doing that about once a minute.

If you didn't have really low costs your mana pool would just get trashed.

Duke Anax1 votes

Have you ever seen post rework Muramana Ryze? You could litterally dump an entire 5000 mana pool onto the enemy team in a single combo.

kcStranger1 votes

That was pretty filthy indeed, although they got rid of the broken interaction with his E.

Chespin20131 votes

Galio : Am I too late to join the party?

Rinky Dinky1 votes

not really

NorthernDruid1 votes

Atleast he can get the 1.5% missing mana regen now.

Vesarixx1 votes

But a nerf late game, since before he got 5% extra from any mana items he bought, I would rather have the extra regen than +75 mana, that's not even an extra heal from Sona

jjookkeerr2 votes

i always use 9/0/21. for me will be a buff

Kingsgrave2 votes

Singed buff

Tin Tarantino2 votes

As someone who plays supports with 21/0/9 masteries this is a pretty big hit to my lane sustain, Also a nerf to Ryze after they already reduced his mana scaling.

BodyByDave1 votes

This seems like a dangerous thing to do at this point in the season (decently far into it), effectively if a mid plays exactly the same after 5 minutes they will be missing 180 mana... that's roughly a quarter to a third of their bar at this timeframe. I imagine most will switch over to butcher to try to deal with this. I actually think a better change would have been to NOT swap them, leave meditation as what it is and make expanded mind the .5/1/1.5% mana regen chalice knock-off thingy they have planned as is. The flat mana increase is garbage anyway.

2 Letters Sho1 votes

Never forget that this is the same mana regen two minutes AFTER YOU FIRST USE MANA (not just 2:05 on the game clock) and only if you don't regen it all again. So say you use your first spell (for whatever reason) as the wave crashes in mid (pretty close to 2:05 actually), this means that your mana will be the same at 4:10! It's hardly that bad.

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